The Trump debate, and international politics in general.

[rob666]

All completely true...but remember, the loyal American public were the ones to vote him in...again!
They only have themselves to blame in electing such a divisive figure.
A new generation of Thatcherism, but over the water.
The rich run things for the rich, and the poor just don't matter.
And those on the middle ground ran in the direction of greed.

 

[Jb85]

You really think he has the people of America’s interest at heart? That seems to fly against all available evidence. Just three examples:

He promised to reduce food costs, his policy’s on immigration and tariffs will increase them (already reports that farmers in the US can’t pick crops as their workers are now in hiding).

He wants to cut trillions from the federal budget, unless he cuts defence spending (which he won’t do) they will have to cull Medicare and social security. America already has the highest medical costs of any developed nation so that will go down well.

He has just suspended all health research, delaying key projects aimed at improving health and has put an anti-vaxer in charge of the nations health, that’s a job killer, investment killer and people killer in one executive order.

Trump cares about one person… Trump.

You may or may not like the current governments policies or believe they will not work (and there is a debate about that to be had) but Starmer is far more concerned with actual people than Trump of Bojo, the fact you think otherwise truly baffles me.

And as for creating a positive vibe, minorities are terrified, thousands of people are losing their job and the cost of food has already inflated this week alone, your definition of positive is very different to mine.

Just a personal view. I’m sick to the back teeth of this country’s politicians. Lies after lies.

And with regards to Trump. Ok - some points you make from one side of the fence. More than 50% of America are in favour of him. He’s put out a positive spin on his policies announced, like them or not, it’s not mundane.

I haven’t explicitly said I agree with his policies. Just the way he has delivered that opening day vibe is just what is needed to jump start a new government. Something Kier didn’t get.

I also like the ‘put America first’ ethos. I was against Brexit, but surely that’s the route we should have taken post Brexit?

 

[Dave]

Just a personal view. I’m sick to the back teeth of this country’s politicians. Lies after lies.

And with regards to Trump. Ok - some points you make from one side of the fence. More than 50% of America are in favour of him. He’s put out a positive spin on his policies announced, like them or not, it’s not mundane.

I haven’t explicitly said I agree with his policies. Just the way he has delivered that opening day vibe is just what is needed to jump start a new government. Something Kier didn’t get.

I also like the ‘put America first’ ethos. I was against Brexit, but surely that’s the route we should have taken post Brexit?

Over 50% of Americans don’t agree with him, he got 49% of the vote on a turnout of 64%.

Name one lie Starmer has made, I strongly advise you to check before believing some of the right wing propagandists bunk about manifesto breaches as you will be heading down a dead end if you go down that route.

As for the first day vibe, over 60% of Americans disagree with his pardons, his early executive orders are not going down all that well at all. Social media is not a good test of public opinion, particularly now X and Facebook are actively advancing pro-Trump posts and hiding anti-Trump posts. But even if it wasn’t, using social media to get “VIBES” is like listening to the obnoxious loud person at work and assuming everyone agrees with them.

As I say you can debate labours performance (I am not particular impressed with Rachael Reeves so far) but on the flip side Trump has inherited an economy that was improving under Biden, Labour inherited an economy in the dumps after the Tory’s. They are hardly starting from similar places.

As an aside Trump said he would bring down the cost of eggs, they have gone up 37% this week, because of the avian flu outbreak, he just stopped funding the government organisations that support farmers in dealing with animal health crisis so cracking strategy there.

 

[Jb85]

Over 50% of Americans don’t agree with him, he got 49% of the vote on a turnout of 64%.

Name one lie Starmer has made, I strongly advise you to check before believing some of the right wing propagandists bunk about manifesto breaches as you will be heading down a dead end if you go down that route.

As for the first day vibe, over 60% of Americans disagree with his pardons, his early executive orders are not going down all that well at all. Social media is not a good test of public opinion, particularly now X and Facebook are actively advancing pro-Trump posts and hiding anti-Trump posts. But even if it wasn’t, using social media to get “VIBES” is like listening to the obnoxious loud person at work and assuming everyone agrees with them.

As I say you can debate labours performance (I am not particular impressed with Rachael Reeves so far) but on the flip side Trump has inherited an economy that was improving under Biden, Labour inherited an economy in the dumps after the Tory’s. They are hardly starting from similar places.

As an aside Trump said he would bring down the cost of eggs, they have gone up 37% this week, because of the avian flu outbreak, he just stopped funding the government organisations that support farmers in dealing with animal health crisis so cracking strategy there.

Not getting into a political debate .. I have my views you have yours. I respect those even if I disagree with some of it.

Nature of life. People are different.

 

[Dave]

Not getting into a political debate .. I have my views you have yours. I respect those even if I disagree with some of it.

Nature of life. People are different.

That’s not how it works, you can respect different “views”, I’m not debating your opinion I am debating the points you are presenting as facts that are not facts.

You said a majority of Americans voted for Trump, that’s not a fact.

You said Starmer has lied and presented no evidence to back that up.

We need to get past the place where anyone can say anything without evidence and present it as a fact and then say “it’s just my opinion respect it”. If you want to debate an opinion then present an opinion in that manner, don’t present it as a list of facts and then complain when they are debunked.

I will fight to the last for people to be able to have their own opinions (within reason), I won’t do the same for people to be able to have their own facts.

 

[Benzin]

Not getting into a political debate .. I have my views you have yours. I respect those even if I disagree with some of it.

Nature of life. People are different.

Not a direct accusation of yourself, but this line of thinking is probably another reason why we've seen a rise in far-right (and total conspiracy) ideology in recent times.

Call a spade a spade. And engage in political discussion for better or worse. There's a reason I stay low contact with certain family members.

Unfortunately in a post-truth era it becomes difficult. Especially when politicians/journalists are never taken to actual task about certain bold (and often incorrect) claims. Just throw some buzz words out there and claim the business will improve as you incorrectly describe tariffs and people believe it. Then suddenly they find out that it was all a lie or bluster to get into position.

Seeing the way that certain search terms on social media have mysteriously hidden results in America but not elsewhere in the world tells you exactly what the situation will be.

 

[rob666]

We were advised within social services to stop calling a spade a spade, could be construed as racist.
I believe the correct term now is "a manually operated device for earth moving".

 

[flyingguitar]

Just a personal view. I’m sick to the back teeth of this country’s politicians. Lies after lies

But trump litterally opperates using a principle called hosepipe of lies, where you say as many false facts and lies as you can and you opposing has to go round arguing against them using all of their time debunking you and it often ends out humiliating as they have to say stuff like Spain isn't part of the brics countries such an easy fact to get, and trump argues back saying they must not know what brics is.

I also like the ‘put America first’ ethos. I was against Brexit, but surely that’s the route we should have taken post Brexit?

No because that isn't how economies work, you can block all imports that would just make prices ddramatically and things you can't make in your country become very difficult to get. You think inflation is bad imagine what would happen if we slapped a 30% tariff on the eu (our major food provider) to protect farmer food prices would skyrocket

 

[Jb85]

@Dave thanks for your response but its not not having the evidence to back up certain claims I make, more of can’t be arsed to air it on here as an extended debate.

Happy to chat offline / via message as genuinely it’s a topic of interest for me.

But just googling Kier Starmer lies brings up a wealth of reasons.

And @flyingguitar thanks but I am a qualified accountant with a degree in economics and accountancy. I know how it works.

 

[flyingguitar]

And @flyingguitar thanks but I am a qualified accountant with a degree in economics and accountancy. I know how it works.

ok explain to me how trumps policies (imposing massive tariffs, deporting millions, etc) would benefit any of the American citizens apart from the rich who owns the factories who can rise prices due to the tarriffs, and it will negetivly affect teh farmers who can't get workers rising prices of goods and food.

this is akin to the trickle down economics, rase tariffs on everything else to drive business to American businesses you may get a couple extra jobs but all other goods will be much more expensive, and because there is little other option rarther than maintain their lower price american buisnesses will ride their prices to an equivilent of 95% of the tarrif (so it is a bit cheaper).

But just googling Kier Starmer lies brings up a wealth of reasons.

Ah yes totally unbiased.
All politicians lie it is their job, but trump lies so much more, the tactic is a firehose of lies where he just lies and lies and lies, so other people have to debunk them, and hope they are believe and often don't get enough time to counter all his lies (a lie can get all around the world before the truth has gotten its boots on)

 

[Plastic Person]

I am no fan of Starmer, but to compare his conduct and policy to Trump’s is nonsensical.

 

[flyingguitar]

another part of the tariff point the reason it won't help primarily is because American businesses won't want to invest in building up infrastructure adding production capacity because 4 years down the line they don't know who is president or if they will keep the tariffs, if it takes 4 years and millions of dollars to build a production plant would you risk it if 4 years someone removes the tariffs and you start loosing tons of money because you opened up a second plant, and consumers are going to the cheaper alternative so most places won't risk it and rase prices so they are slightly cheaper than the other countries stuff.

 

[Jb85]

This so soo yawn
Don’t need to justify myself
Everything on here recently is explain this explain that
Simple answer - I won’t

 

[Matt N]

This so soo yawn
Don’t need to justify myself
Everything on here recently is explain this explain that
Simple answer - I won’t

With respect, isn't justifying yourself a considerable part of being on a discussion forum?

No one is criticising the opinions anyone holds or saying that they aren't valid (well, I'm certainly not anyway), and I apologise if it comes across that way from me, but hearing justifications for opinions is the whole thing that furthers constructive debate on here, is it not?

But if you disagree, fair enough.

 

[Jb85]

With respect, isn't justifying yourself a considerable part of being on a discussion forum?

No one is criticising the opinions anyone holds or saying that they aren't valid (well, I'm certainly not anyway), and I apologise if it comes across that way from me, but hearing justifications for opinions is the whole thing that furthers constructive debate on here, is it not?

You’re fine @Matt N ….
And whilst I agree about debate … there is a trend on the whole forum at the moment by certain members of ‘I hear you but you can’t say that without explaining’ and arguing their point to death.

My opening post said I hadn’t really the time to go into much detail but felt the will to contribute a little with my opinions. Something I am entitled to. (Ironically to keep on topic against what Trump will likely portray!)

But the need to then explain every word written. Nah your alright….it just becomes boring.

Going to draw a line on this now and let the topic move on before the mods moan.

 

[Tom]

Not everything needs to be explained, but populist one-liner lies/exaggerations regurgitated from Murdoch or GB News are liable to challenge on a forum where there is actual intelligence.

Trump will be gone in four years. Nothing lasts forever and virtually everything he does can be undone. Refer to 2017-2021 for details. He is not worth any Briton’s energy of thought.

 

[Jb85]

Not everything needs to be explained, but populist one-liner lies/exaggerations regurgitated from Murdoch or GB News are liable to challenge on a forum where there is actual intelligence.

Trump will be gone in four years. Nothing lasts forever and virtually everyone he does can be undone. Refer to 2017-2021 for details. He is not worth any Briton’s energy of thought.

I don’t think I’ve quoted GB News in any post.

 

[flyingguitar]

I don’t think I’ve quoted GB News in any post.

you don't quote them, but you do spread their rhetoric

I think a lot of people on here don't buy into the right wing bs and when you say / imply some of the stuff such as Donald trump being honest / not lieing as much, when a lot of us know he isn't often, it is kind of like saying the sky is orange, I think a lot of us want to know why you think that, what evidence you have seen that makes you think that, etc.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

you don't quote them, but you do spread their rhetoric

I think a lot of people on here don't buy into the right wing bs and when you say / imply some of the stuff such as Donald trump being honest / not lieing as much, when a lot of us know he isn't often, it is kind of like saying the sky is orange, I think a lot of us want to know why you think that, what evidence you have seen that makes you think that, etc.

With the greatest respect, @Jb85 hasn't spread anyone's rhetoric but their own. I may not agree with them on their initial post, but all they said was that they didn't believe Keir Starmer had delivered, but didn't qualify the statement. When challenged, they said they didn't want to qualify the statement, they didn't say it was a fact, they said it was a feeling.

I believe that @Jb85 has said that they appreciate some of the sense of national pride that Trump has installed in Americans, and believes that should have been the case for Brexit. That doesn't mean that they believe that Trump is right, or that Trump's form of Nationalism is the way forward, or even that they're a fascist. It's just an alternative view. Personally I wouldn't have picked a divisive figure such as Trump to illustrate that point, but that's my view.

 

[flyingguitar]

I may not agree with them on their initial post, but all they said was that they didn't believe Keir Starmer had delivered, but didn't qualify the statement. When challenged, they said they didn't want to qualify the statement, they didn't say it was a fact, they said it was a feeling.

ah I see, I may be misunderstanding, I was more talking about the Donald trump or fact based parts (such as kier starmer lieing), not so much the kier starmer underdelivery.

the kier starmer underelivery I can quite easily understand the view point currently, given the fact that fixing many of the problems takes time, and I think people were expecting him to turn into power and boom all their problems are fixed.

I believe that @Jb85 has said that they appreciate some of the sense of national pride that Trump has installed in Americans, and believes that should have been the case for Brexit. That doesn't mean that they believe that Trump is right, or that Trump's form of Nationalism is the way forward, or even that they're a fascist. It's just an alternative view. Personally I wouldn't have picked a divisive figure such as Trump to illustrate that point, but that's my view.

if this is correct then I would agree Donald trump isn't the best,
but I think the US has always had this sense of being the best, from what I have seen donald trump is weaponizing it (saying they are ruining this perfect country, etc)