Shaggy_Dog_
TS Member
The thing is though even if the park was able to identify and ban the troublemakers wouldn’t a whole new bunch just turn up the next year and cause the same problems?
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Travellers Day Scarefest
- Thread starter Zippy481
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The thing is though even if the park was able to identify and ban the troublemakers wouldn’t a whole new bunch just turn up the next year and cause the same problems?
I was just going to say this. Every year they’ll just get people who are a year older and perhaps become more likely to cause trouble.
It’s the same analogy when people say an attraction has become stale to them, forgetting the fact that every year there is going to be a whole new bunch of people who can experience it for the first time due to meeting the height restriction for example.
IDB
TS Member
There’s enough sound bites on here and on social media for a local news reporter to compile a story about yesterday and go to AT for an official statement. Does anyone know if it’s ever featured in the press previously?
Agree completely. They take full advantage of the 'we're discriminated against, woe is us' culture, yet the discrimination stems precisely from their actions, especially toward others (even if it's just a scumbag minority, if people take their own action against that scumbag minority then they face problems from the whole collective)
We go once every Scarefest and have done since our daughters were little (eldest is 18 now) and twice we've fallen foul of this day.
The first time was the worst (2017 or 2018) as we had some friends' two daughters with us as well to keep safe, and the atmosphere was horrendous. Witnessed several fights, lots of queue-jumping, lots of threats/intimidation toward staff and other park visitors, lots of general ASB. We had to walk from the Woodcutter to X-Sector just after it had gone dark and there were at least 100 traveller youths congregated there with bits of fighting kicking off and insults/spitting directed at random park visitors - an inadequate number of police and security trying to keep a lid on it all. Never even knew 'Traveller Day' existed until that point and made a note to avoid it in future.
For whatever reason, we hit it again last year. Have to admit it wasn't quite as bad as the first time as there seemed to be fewer of them and more police/security. But still a number of ASB incidents, queue jumping, and of course no alcohol. Complained to AT and were sent 4 return-visit passes.
(as an aside, last year they all seemed to have matching 'Grealish' haircuts; perhaps identify them that way - if nothing else, ban them for crimes against good fashion taste
)AT customer service sympathised with the complaint points we made but said what people realise on here - they can't blanket-ban the entire traveller community (I guess if they banned there being a traveller day, the travellers would stop giving them advanced notice to allow AT to put in place the even limited mitigation measures they do, and just turn up) and they can't pre-advertise it as such to warn people. In communications with AT, they referred to the travellers as 'large groups of people' throughout, and also advised "Typically, large groups of people visit the Resort on Easter Sunday, and the first Sunday of the Scarefest special event in October.". This year, it's the second Sunday...
We're booked to go next Sunday and I can breathe a little easier. Just the weather and queues to spoil the day now
I can give you a very long list - via private message should you so wish.
JoshM
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
I concur that AT security are subpar, compared to or Merlin Parks, ie: Thrope Park's, who at least are used to this behaviour year old simply due to the audiance the park aims themselves at. Thrope Park security ALWAYS check bags at the entrance and carry PPE; ie: Handcuffs I have never seen this at AT. Maybe it's time they go down this route?
Simply put, AT will always refuse to name the travelling communiuty despite everyone and their grans knowing they're responsible, it's PR at the end of the day, they cannot be seen to be discriminating against a group, end of.
Simply put, AT will always refuse to name the travelling communiuty despite everyone and their grans knowing they're responsible, it's PR at the end of the day, they cannot be seen to be discriminating against a group, end of.
James
TS Founding Member
I actually think this is a good idea, but allude the opposite when advertising this.
Maybe advertise as:
"Family Friendly Day
16th October will be a family-friendly day across the resort, there will be some changes you may notice to maintain our family-friendly atmosphere such as:
- No alcohol will be on sale
- There will be increased security checks on the resort
- Resort hotels will be accessible to residents only"
Benjsh is quite correct though, there's no solution. This debate gets brought up every year, it will be discussed again next year, and we always come to the same conclusion. Towers cannot do anything as it's impossible to stop this behaviour completely (not without discrimination or segregation).
I think Towers have come a long way with the management of these days. It's unfortunate that this particular Sunday just gone by people have had some bad experiences. However, there's nothing more Towers can really do.
pluk
TS Member
I don't think this is true at all. They can do loads more with the volumes of security/policing on the night and how they respond to individual incidents (regardless of who causes them, not targeted at any particular group), if they want to spend the money to do so.
If you have enough security to robustly remove people in line with the parks general terms of admission you'd be likely to see not only a huge improvement on that particular night but also a change in the attitudes of guests visiting in future years, and that's before you consider also putting funding in place for effectively managing a banning system.
Skyscraper
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
As has already been said many times, advertising it would not work as the parties would just come on a different day unannounced.
I mean realistically they can do that anyway. They don't need to tell towers when they're coming
Matt.GC
TS Member
I was thinking about this when I was being assaulted last night removing a particularly vile person from my store. I've thrown him out 4 times in the last fortnight. He's fully banned, has been for a year, was arrested on the premises a few months ago and is trespassing. If he steals whilst a banning order is in place, he's committed burglary.
But he'll be in at some point again this week I'm willing to bet, maybe without me even knowing about it.
The point is, bans are almost impossible to enforce. Towers have probably banned hundreds of people over the years and probably slap a banning notice and those they remove on these days. But there's nothing to stop them just coming back undetected.
We used to have "rogue's galleries" in staff areas years ago with CCTV pictures of offenders, but privacy laws have changed since then. We can still share stuff but it has to be done privately.
Realistically, it's very hard for Towers to enforce a ban.
But he'll be in at some point again this week I'm willing to bet, maybe without me even knowing about it.
The point is, bans are almost impossible to enforce. Towers have probably banned hundreds of people over the years and probably slap a banning notice and those they remove on these days. But there's nothing to stop them just coming back undetected.
We used to have "rogue's galleries" in staff areas years ago with CCTV pictures of offenders, but privacy laws have changed since then. We can still share stuff but it has to be done privately.
Realistically, it's very hard for Towers to enforce a ban.
I think advertising a day which couldn’t be worse for a family to visit as a family friendly day would be a disaster for Alton towers. Can you imagine higher numbers of families turning up for a day of bad language, queue jumping and fighting?
We know what family friendly days are but the majority of the public won’t.
We know what family friendly days are but the majority of the public won’t.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Mako (SeaWorld Orlando)
One thing I would say is that that particular move did not go down particularly well when Pontins did it, from memory… I remember there being huge public uproar about it, and I seem to remember that it even made Rip-Off Britain (or similar).
Seems other places have resorted to banning travellers in the past
If Towers repeated this, I think they would be in for a world of pain, not least because it’s against the law, and because there are also plenty of people with Irish surnames who aren’t travellers…
AT86
TS Member
Seems other places have resorted to banning travellers in the past
Which was illegal. As has been pointed out to you many times before.
Pontins used 'undesirables list' of Irish surnames - BBC News
The holiday firm promises to change after disclosure of a list to screen out Gypsies and Travellers.
www.bbc.com
Skyscraper
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
Fixed it for you.
Seems other places have resorted to illegally banning travellers in the past
BigShadowtinytree
TS Member
They got a lot of backlash for this. One reason was because people who weren’t travellers but happened to have a surname that was associated with that community were banned by default, which is obviously very unfair and illegal.
Seems other places have resorted to banning travellers in the past
Matt.GC
TS Member
This was discussed at length earlier in this thread.
Seems other places have resorted to banning travellers in the past
After reading this entire thread, I just thought I'd drop in here with my experience on Sunday 16th as a guest unfortunately lumped with the double whammy of ASD and social anxiety. I should start out by saying that my dad and I have been unlucky enough to be at AT and TP on these days during past Scarefest and Fright Nights dates, but at AT it never seemed as much of a problem as it was in TP (TP was so bad 1 year with mazes ceasing operation due to ASB incidents that we only got to do 1 of them the entire night!) However, I have to say that this past Sunday at AT was truly terrifying for me personally. I've never felt so unsafe at a theme park in all my life, and I would have to agree that despite the relatively large and visible security presence, they were completely useless from what I saw while there.
My dad and I were having a lovely relaxed morning in the park, but the atmosphere changed dramatically during the afternoon, worsening as the evening went on.
This is my first year of having a RAP (only recently got my ASD diagnosis late last year, which went a long way to explaining why I had a meltdown during my Scarefest visit in 2021, in floods of tears at guest services because the sheer number of things that had gone wrong throughout the day that year just totally overwhelmed me) and my experience of RAP overall has been a real gamechanger for me. In recent years, I'd actually begun to associate going to Merlin parks as being something that would inevitably be extremely stressful, but unavoidable if I wanted to keep enjoying rides. RAP has meant that I can ride rides and then escape from all the crowds and the noise until I feel like I can face it again.
However, on Sunday, there just wasn't any escape. No matter where we went, everywhere was just overrun with people acting in the most disgusting and disrespectful ways. And the RAP queues appeared to serve as an easy target, leading to almost constant abuse, much to the horror and disgust of fellow guests.
For us, the first incidents began on Rita, where an adult male pushed his way to the front of the RAP queue and shouted for his 2 children to join him. Everyone started murmuring among themselves. The lady at the front of the RAP queue mentioned it to the staff member marking times on cards, but was met with an unsympathetic shrug, and the group who pushed in were allowed onto the ride without question. They weren't asked to even show their RAP passes or time cards, yet the member of staff continued to mark times on all the genuine RAP holder's cards.
I can understand staff not wanting to challenge people. If I worked there, I know I certainly wouldn't have the courage to, but still, it's just plain wrong to turn a blind eye and let them get away with it.
It wasn't even a long RAP queue (about 5 groups in front of my dad and I), but before we got to the front, another group appeared and began pushing past everyone in RAP. This time it was 3 young lads. They were using the excuse that their mum was already in one of the bays to get on, then it was supposedly their brother. This time, people behind us began to block their way, but ultimately failed. The lad at the head of the group almost shoved me over from behind, and that's where I began to get really scared because I am very much against being touched without warning and invasion of personal space without consent. My dad grabbed me to stop me falling, and blocked the guy off. He kept prodding me in the back asking to be let through, and I just stood there like a statue, terrified, not knowing what to do besides pretend I hadn't heard/noticed him.
Much to my relief, the group decided to jump the barrier into the fast track queue instead. One of the lads then pestered a guy, asking him to hand over a fast track to 'help him out'! The guy scoffed and asked why on earth he would do that, and the young lad's response was to say, 'because I just saw you touch him inappropriately' pointing to his mate. After eventually making it up to the platform, the 3 young lads were successfully kicked out by staff at least.
But this pattern continued throughout the night no matter which RAP queue we attempted to join. I feel like there should have been security or something in all the RAP queues because it's bad enough when the average guest receives abuse, but it's even worse to essentially be targeted and picked on because of your disability! We really needed some sort of protection, and it just wasn't there.
We witnessed some older lads take a wheelchair that a small boy was in from the mother that was pushing it just so that they could move the wheelchair far enough out of the way for their group of about 15 to push past everyone in RAP on Thirteen! I have no idea if they got on the ride because my dad and I chose to leave to try and find refuge somewhere. The RAP queue would've been around an hour+ wait anyhow given the rate it was going, and while I can and will join a regular queue if it is around 20 mins or under, I'm just not equipped to deal with loud, long, or rowdy queuelines.
We attempted to get food at Just Chicken because we had the doughnut burger one year and hoped to get another, but even that was overrun and utter chaos. We couldn't get anywhere near the tills to order, and you could see from the looks on the staff's faces behind the counter that they were just overwhelmed and exhausted. Two staff members in particular kept exchanging glances that looked like they were saying to each other, wtf do we do?
Thankfully, one of the kindly ladies noticed I was looking rather distressed, and made the effort to call out to us over the crowds, allowing us to come forward and order. They didn't have the doughnut burger, sadly, nor was there anywhere safe or shelteredto sit and eat.
After that, we tried to do Smiler, but again, the RAP queue was huge, and after several groups pushed in once again (one group being the same father and 2 kids who got away with it earlier on Rita), we just gave up. It's like it would start out with 1 or 2 doing it, then they'd be on the phone to their mates, and before you knew it, there's an entire army of people pushing past you and absolutely nothing you can do about it. Some of the lads even pushed out of the queues just so they could go and help members of their group who were less confident about cutting in by just dragging them up to the front with them.
We thought we might find peace in the garden lights walk, something we hoped to do this year anyway since we didn't get time to last year, but even this had been invaded with large groups just loitering, vaping, and verbally abusing those who dared to walk anywhere near them, so we gave that a miss too because the last thing either of us wanted was to be assaulted down there where it was quite dark and no visible security around.
Finally, we attempted to join the RAP queue for Wickerman, which wasn't too bad at first. Unfortunately, however, a few very young kids appeared out of nowhere and pushed past several groups, then their mothers appeared with prams, pushing past to reach their kids. The murmuring began again, but no one said anything to their faces. Then another 10 or so older kids showed up and pushed in to join the younger ones and the mothers. One person towards the back of the queue managed to get the attention of 2 passing security guys to explain what had happened. To their credit, the security guys then went down the line checking everyone actually had access passes. The entire group of people who pushed in did have passes (as did most of the folks who pushed into the RAP queues that day), so security just said that's fine, and began walking away. The same lady who collared them said that it doesn't matter if they have valid RAPs or not, the point is that they still pushed in. They still jumped several groups. A few guests nearby chimed in to back up what we'd all seen, but security said that there was nothing they could do since everyone had passes. So much for queue jumping of any kind
not being tolerated.
We did at least make it onto the ride, though even that was a frustrating affair, as one of the mums had refused to relinquish her handbag, resulting in further waiting as she argued with staff while sat on the ride about her right to keep it with her as she rode.
Interestingly, the following day, a few members of staff asked us if we were on park the previous day, and we said we were, and how scary it was. They expressed exhaustion and were nothing but apologetic, bless them. My dad said he could imagine how nightmarish it must be to work a day like that. One guy said he thinks he kicked about 150 people off of the ride he was working on that day. Another told us that there were apparently plain clothed security staff in the regular queues monitoring things, but I can't comment on that, and there certainly weren't any in the RAP queues. Another said that they wound up working almost alone after dark because they were the only member of their team with the mental toughness to deal with the queue jumpers.
I do really feel for the staff because, without the appropriate backup from security, they're fairly helpless. I wouldn't expect them to stand up to guests displaying ASB at the risk of their own personal safety. I can't imagine they're paid enough for that! But seeing how helpless they were really added to my overall feelings of fear and anxiety. It was like the situation was out of control and everyone was just expected to ignore what was happening and try to get on with their night as best as they could.
I'm so glad that Monday was a nice calm day! The atmosphere was so different. It was just fun on Monday. All the fear and tension had disappeared completely and I didn't feel the need to constantly look over my shoulder. Had Sunday been our only day there, I probably wouldn't return in the future for fear of it happening again.
I do wish there were a way to avoid these days in the future because it's pretty much a waste of time and money being in the park when things get that bad. Not to mention how traumatic it can be.
My dad and I were having a lovely relaxed morning in the park, but the atmosphere changed dramatically during the afternoon, worsening as the evening went on.
This is my first year of having a RAP (only recently got my ASD diagnosis late last year, which went a long way to explaining why I had a meltdown during my Scarefest visit in 2021, in floods of tears at guest services because the sheer number of things that had gone wrong throughout the day that year just totally overwhelmed me) and my experience of RAP overall has been a real gamechanger for me. In recent years, I'd actually begun to associate going to Merlin parks as being something that would inevitably be extremely stressful, but unavoidable if I wanted to keep enjoying rides. RAP has meant that I can ride rides and then escape from all the crowds and the noise until I feel like I can face it again.
However, on Sunday, there just wasn't any escape. No matter where we went, everywhere was just overrun with people acting in the most disgusting and disrespectful ways. And the RAP queues appeared to serve as an easy target, leading to almost constant abuse, much to the horror and disgust of fellow guests.
For us, the first incidents began on Rita, where an adult male pushed his way to the front of the RAP queue and shouted for his 2 children to join him. Everyone started murmuring among themselves. The lady at the front of the RAP queue mentioned it to the staff member marking times on cards, but was met with an unsympathetic shrug, and the group who pushed in were allowed onto the ride without question. They weren't asked to even show their RAP passes or time cards, yet the member of staff continued to mark times on all the genuine RAP holder's cards.
I can understand staff not wanting to challenge people. If I worked there, I know I certainly wouldn't have the courage to, but still, it's just plain wrong to turn a blind eye and let them get away with it.
It wasn't even a long RAP queue (about 5 groups in front of my dad and I), but before we got to the front, another group appeared and began pushing past everyone in RAP. This time it was 3 young lads. They were using the excuse that their mum was already in one of the bays to get on, then it was supposedly their brother. This time, people behind us began to block their way, but ultimately failed. The lad at the head of the group almost shoved me over from behind, and that's where I began to get really scared because I am very much against being touched without warning and invasion of personal space without consent. My dad grabbed me to stop me falling, and blocked the guy off. He kept prodding me in the back asking to be let through, and I just stood there like a statue, terrified, not knowing what to do besides pretend I hadn't heard/noticed him.
Much to my relief, the group decided to jump the barrier into the fast track queue instead. One of the lads then pestered a guy, asking him to hand over a fast track to 'help him out'! The guy scoffed and asked why on earth he would do that, and the young lad's response was to say, 'because I just saw you touch him inappropriately' pointing to his mate. After eventually making it up to the platform, the 3 young lads were successfully kicked out by staff at least.
But this pattern continued throughout the night no matter which RAP queue we attempted to join. I feel like there should have been security or something in all the RAP queues because it's bad enough when the average guest receives abuse, but it's even worse to essentially be targeted and picked on because of your disability! We really needed some sort of protection, and it just wasn't there.
We witnessed some older lads take a wheelchair that a small boy was in from the mother that was pushing it just so that they could move the wheelchair far enough out of the way for their group of about 15 to push past everyone in RAP on Thirteen! I have no idea if they got on the ride because my dad and I chose to leave to try and find refuge somewhere. The RAP queue would've been around an hour+ wait anyhow given the rate it was going, and while I can and will join a regular queue if it is around 20 mins or under, I'm just not equipped to deal with loud, long, or rowdy queuelines.
We attempted to get food at Just Chicken because we had the doughnut burger one year and hoped to get another, but even that was overrun and utter chaos. We couldn't get anywhere near the tills to order, and you could see from the looks on the staff's faces behind the counter that they were just overwhelmed and exhausted. Two staff members in particular kept exchanging glances that looked like they were saying to each other, wtf do we do?
Thankfully, one of the kindly ladies noticed I was looking rather distressed, and made the effort to call out to us over the crowds, allowing us to come forward and order. They didn't have the doughnut burger, sadly, nor was there anywhere safe or shelteredto sit and eat.
After that, we tried to do Smiler, but again, the RAP queue was huge, and after several groups pushed in once again (one group being the same father and 2 kids who got away with it earlier on Rita), we just gave up. It's like it would start out with 1 or 2 doing it, then they'd be on the phone to their mates, and before you knew it, there's an entire army of people pushing past you and absolutely nothing you can do about it. Some of the lads even pushed out of the queues just so they could go and help members of their group who were less confident about cutting in by just dragging them up to the front with them.
We thought we might find peace in the garden lights walk, something we hoped to do this year anyway since we didn't get time to last year, but even this had been invaded with large groups just loitering, vaping, and verbally abusing those who dared to walk anywhere near them, so we gave that a miss too because the last thing either of us wanted was to be assaulted down there where it was quite dark and no visible security around.
Finally, we attempted to join the RAP queue for Wickerman, which wasn't too bad at first. Unfortunately, however, a few very young kids appeared out of nowhere and pushed past several groups, then their mothers appeared with prams, pushing past to reach their kids. The murmuring began again, but no one said anything to their faces. Then another 10 or so older kids showed up and pushed in to join the younger ones and the mothers. One person towards the back of the queue managed to get the attention of 2 passing security guys to explain what had happened. To their credit, the security guys then went down the line checking everyone actually had access passes. The entire group of people who pushed in did have passes (as did most of the folks who pushed into the RAP queues that day), so security just said that's fine, and began walking away. The same lady who collared them said that it doesn't matter if they have valid RAPs or not, the point is that they still pushed in. They still jumped several groups. A few guests nearby chimed in to back up what we'd all seen, but security said that there was nothing they could do since everyone had passes. So much for queue jumping of any kind
not being tolerated.
We did at least make it onto the ride, though even that was a frustrating affair, as one of the mums had refused to relinquish her handbag, resulting in further waiting as she argued with staff while sat on the ride about her right to keep it with her as she rode.
Interestingly, the following day, a few members of staff asked us if we were on park the previous day, and we said we were, and how scary it was. They expressed exhaustion and were nothing but apologetic, bless them. My dad said he could imagine how nightmarish it must be to work a day like that. One guy said he thinks he kicked about 150 people off of the ride he was working on that day. Another told us that there were apparently plain clothed security staff in the regular queues monitoring things, but I can't comment on that, and there certainly weren't any in the RAP queues. Another said that they wound up working almost alone after dark because they were the only member of their team with the mental toughness to deal with the queue jumpers.
I do really feel for the staff because, without the appropriate backup from security, they're fairly helpless. I wouldn't expect them to stand up to guests displaying ASB at the risk of their own personal safety. I can't imagine they're paid enough for that! But seeing how helpless they were really added to my overall feelings of fear and anxiety. It was like the situation was out of control and everyone was just expected to ignore what was happening and try to get on with their night as best as they could.
I'm so glad that Monday was a nice calm day! The atmosphere was so different. It was just fun on Monday. All the fear and tension had disappeared completely and I didn't feel the need to constantly look over my shoulder. Had Sunday been our only day there, I probably wouldn't return in the future for fear of it happening again.
I do wish there were a way to avoid these days in the future because it's pretty much a waste of time and money being in the park when things get that bad. Not to mention how traumatic it can be.
pluk
TS Member
An open doored retail premises is a very different thing to a closed gate, electronic pre-book ticketed one though.
It would take a bit of time and effort (and resulting cost), but there are loads of options like working out the booking details of identified troublemakers and banning them linked to their payment details, vehicle registration, or start fingerprinting on entry like Disney do. Having a lower adult to child ratio on entrance for scarefest would probably also help hugely. None of this targets any particular group, perfectly legal.
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