UK politics general discussion

[JAperson]

the one MP caught telling the truth was thrown out for his honesty.
Our great democratic government is a beacon to the world.

If you are referring to Ian Blackfold he clearly broke the rules of parliament, rules that have been around for a very long time. He was right to be thrown out, he has no respect for that parliament anyway and wishes to destroy it.

 

[tayspru]

What I despise about PMQs and indeed any parliamentary debate, is that there’s no opportunity to rebuff whatever nonsense comes out of Boris’s mouth. The MP posing the question has no immediate right to respond and call out the fact that their question was never answered

 

[rob666]

If you are referring to Ian Blackfold he clearly broke the rules of parliament, rules that have been around for a very long time. He was right to be thrown out, he has no respect for that parliament anyway and wishes to destroy it.

He spoke the truth, and was kicked out of the chamber for it.
Boris has made the whole of British government a laughing stock around the world, he is the one who should be kicked out for disrespecting parliament.
Slavery was "around for a very long time" before the rules were changed.
Just because rules are old doesn't make them right.

 

[geo4chg]

He spoke the truth, and was kicked out of the chamber for it.
Boris has made the whole of British government a laughing stock around the world, he is the one who should be kicked out for disrespecting parliament.
Slavery was "around for a very long time" before the rules were changed.
Just because rules are old doesn't make them right.

The problem is the rules around not calling other MPs liars in parliament is predicated on the notion that MPs are honest and decent people that therefore would not knowingly lie - obviously they all spin situations to their own advantage and may evade straight answers but this is different to actually lying to the House. The problem is, our current parliament has a number of people in it for which lying and spreading "fake news" (for want of a better term) is their default position for getting out of sticky situations and therefore this rule has created this mess where the person calling out another for lying is the person that is evicted from the chamber rather than the liar themselves.

 

[Alsty]

The problem is that Boris Johnson won't resign so it falls to his party to oust him. However they are seemingly unwilling to do so. It's reminiscent of the problems with Donald Trump where Republican politicians took a partisan approach rather than doing what was best for democracy and for the country. Ultimately the checks and balances in the system do not work if they are not exercised.

 

[Craig]

The problem is that Boris Johnson won't resign so it falls to his party to oust him. However they are seemingly unwilling to do so. It's reminiscent of the problems with Donald Trump where Republican politicians took a partisan approach rather than doing what was best for democracy and for the country. Ultimately the checks and balances in the system do not work if they are not exercised.

Yup, and that’s the sort of long term problems I’m referring to. Sure the US voted Biden in and got rid of Trump, but longer term he could be back next election because of their failure to properly deal with the issues he was causing at the time. The same could happen here, one election does not reverse the damage done it merely postpones it.

Parliament and indeed government has been run via convention rather than rules for years. But consequences of breaking those conventions have been ignored as the party in power is failing to hold their leader to account. It’s really exposing the failure of not having rules and subsequent punishments as rules rather than what are currently basically nothing but expectations.


Also, heads up I will split this topic up away from Coronavirus later tonight once I get on the laptop. As interesting as this all is, it’s evolving well away from Coronavirus!

 

[JAperson]

He spoke the truth, and was kicked out of the chamber for it.

He broke the rules and was kicked out. Personally, I can’t stand him or his party.
I agree that Boris has disrespected the whole democratic establishment in this country, including making press statements before proposing them to the house. The speaker has rightly callled him out on this. The issue is there isn’t any point kicking the PM out of the chamber because then you’ve not got anyone to answer questions. But I think we all agree Boris is in the wrong and should resign, which he won’t.
all I’ll say is the next election is going to be interesting, with Labour and other opposing parties have so much to use against the tories now. I do think the tories might be difficult to dislodge because they’ve got such a big majority.

 

[jon81uk]

all I’ll say is the next election is going to be interesting, with Labour and other opposing parties have so much to use against the tories now. I do think the tories might be difficult to dislodge because they’ve got such a big majority.

The issue is there is two years until the next election. Will voters remember how bad the tories have been in the last month in 27 months time?

 

[geo4chg]

The issue is there is two years until the next election. Will voters remember how bad the tories have been in the last month in 27 months time?

A lot of that majority is built on Brexit though, how many of those Red Wall seats that turned Blue because of this will simply change back Labour next time when the election isn't fought on the promise of "delivering Brexit"?

 

[JAperson]

The issue is there is two years until the next election. Will voters remember how bad the tories have been in the last month in 27 months time?

I think people will remember because it's just such a big thing, probably the biggest political blunder in this country in living memory. We also must remember that like you say we've got two more years for them to screw things up even more. Lots of time for more scandals.

A lot of that majority is built on Brexit though, how many of those Red Wall seats that turned Blue because of this will simply change back Labour next time when the election isn't fought on the promise of "delivering Brexit"?

A decent number of them will likely go back to Labour, not sure if all of them will. I think it's the main reason we won't see an election early, the red wall tories will never call an election that means they are likely to loose there seats, the election won't happen until it has too.
I still hope Boris will go, even though I don't think he'll do it of his own accord. I really hope the just over 50 conservative MP's come to together to get rid of him but who knows. It's looking increasingly likely he'll cling on to power for now anyway.

 

[rob666]

It isn't getting the fifty MP's though is it...it is then getting a majority of Tories to kick him out in the no confidence vote...which will not happen.

 

[JAperson]

It isn't getting the fifty MP's though is it...it is then getting a majority of Tories to kick him out in the no confidence vote...which will not happen.

Yeah I think you are right it's becoming increasily unlikely, which is wrong. He should resign, but he won't. The mechanism to move him won't happen. It's like he's becoming more powerful from this, it's ridiculous.

 

[JAperson]

This topic is for general discussion about "Partygate", the subsequent political fallout and general UK political discussion. The posts have been split from the Coronavirus topic as much as possible without interrupting the flow of discussion in that topic.

Well done on splitting the topics @Craig that's a lot of posts to go through and decide where each one goes. Cheers.

 

[Matt N]

Out of interest @Craig, why is the first post listed as 6th January 2019?

Also, does discussion in here have to be about Partygate, or can it be about anything UK politics-related?

 

[Craig]

Out of interest @Craig, why is the first post listed as 6th January 2019?

Blimey you lot pick up on everything don't you . As the forum topics run in chronological order, I picked up an old junk post of mine, edited it and merged it into the new topic so I can put a clear explanation on what the topic is for.

Also, does discussion in here have to be about Partygate, or can it be about anything UK politics-related?

As mentioned in that post, this topic is for general UK politics chat too, it's just the current focus is Partygate and the fallout surrounding it .

 

[Matt N]

Blimey you lot pick up on everything don't you . As the forum topics run in chronological order, I picked up an old junk post of mine, edited it and merged it into the new topic so I can put a clear explanation on what the topic is for.



As mentioned in that post, this topic is for general UK politics chat too, it's just the current focus is Partygate and the fallout surrounding it .

Cheers Craig; I didn’t mean for that question about the date to sound accusatory, I was just curious!

 

[Rojo]

Blimey you lot pick up on everything don't you . As the forum topics run in chronological order, I picked up an old junk post of mine, edited it and merged it into the new topic so I can put a clear explanation on what the topic is for.



As mentioned in that post, this topic is for general UK politics chat too, it's just the current focus is Partygate and the fallout surrounding it .

Totally should have just referred Matt to the Sue Gray enquiry

 

[Matt N]

One interesting thing I did notice about Boris at yesterday’s Commons debate, which he does more widely as well, is that his weapon of choice in these debates seems to be deflecting from the topic.

I noticed that his rebuttal to quite a few questions was to cite the government’s greatest achievements; for instance, I heard “one of the best vaccine rollouts in the world”, “delivering Brexit” and “fastest growing economy in the G7” quite a few times yesterday…

He also bought up Jimmy Savile and Starmer’s “failure to prosecute Savile” as a rebuttal to Keir Starmer, and he criticised Ian Blackford’s weight last week at PMQs when Blackford said about Johnson “eating cake” while the country was making sacrifices (or something along those lines), as well as numerous other deflecting rebuttals.

 

[JAperson]

One interesting thing I did notice about Boris at yesterday’s Commons debate, which he does more widely as well, is that his weapon of choice in these debates seems to be deflecting from the topic.

I noticed that his rebuttal to quite a few questions was to cite the government’s greatest achievements; for instance, I heard “one of the best vaccine rollouts in the world”, “delivering Brexit” and “fastest growing economy in the G7” quite a few times yesterday…

This is what all politicians do, particularly in interviews. In PMQ's sometimes it's a bit different but they have actual answers to questions that there backbenchers have been asked to ask so to speak. The whips will want to make the PM look good and so they'll communicate with a backbencher to get them to ask a question that the PM will have a perfect answer too.
Boris does have a particular way of doing it though, usually by making personal insults or allegations which are usually untrue or over exaggerated. Boris is a performer first and foremost and we know we has in plays at Eton. He's a journalist second and a politician third. He knows all the tricks journalists use and how to get in the headlines with a comment he's made.

 

[Alsty]

I noticed that his rebuttal to quite a few questions was to cite the government’s greatest achievements; for instance, I heard “one of the best vaccine rollouts in the world”, “delivering Brexit” and “fastest growing economy in the G7” quite a few times yesterday…

I sense this is him giving a case to his peers why they shouldn't trigger a vote of no confidence. Trying to win them over with claims of his achievements (although I would personally question all three of those claims as either being untrue or misrepresented).

He also bought up Jimmy Savile and Starmer’s “failure to prosecute Savile” as a rebuttal to Keir Starmer

Completely disgraceful for him to say this as it's just not true, but why would we expect anything less from a serial liar?

and he criticised Ian Blackford’s weight last week at PMQs when Blackford said about Johnson “eating cake” while the country was making sacrifices (or something along those lines),

And fat-shaming really is a low even for Johnson. School yard bullying coming from the leader of highest office in the country.