UK Politics General Discussion

[sock]

Haha, I don't fancy a farage government let's be clear but neither do I like this path of control, socialism and erosion of freedoms. I am at heart a centrist, where do the centrists go? The conservatives have 4 years to re invent and fill that void.

I'm no expert in politics, but I doubt the conservatives are going to reinvent to become centrist, given that they are a right wing party that shows no signs of lightening up on that. Probably the closest thing this country has to a centrist party right now is the lib dems or even the current government. Although I'd argue current labour is closer to right-wing.

 

[Tom]

Under Starmer, Labour probably was relatively centre economically and slightly liberal, i.e. what some people ineffectively call 'left', socially.

Reform UK has forced them to become slightly-left economically, and slightly authoritarian, i.e. what some people ineffectively call 'right', socially.

The Conservative Party, currently failing in terms of anyone listening, also been shifted, but towards the right economically - they're openly arguing for a return to spending cuts and austerity - and further authoritarian socially. This is where the desperate populist battle between Reform UK and the Conservative Party will be interesting, and Labour should largely leave them to out-extreme themselves over things like the death penalty, European Court of Human rights withdrawal, national service, a class war on "council estates of benefits".

The good thing about Reform UK is that it has forced the party in power to stop ignoring some pretty obvious stuff about allowing unlimited numbers of people into the country and the associated prices to pay for that. The issue was ignored for years, and was exacerbated by Conservative policy post-Brexit.

Labour have already lost most of their liberal-left base to the Green Party and possibly others. They can only claw back support from authoritarian policies now. They've possibly realised this with new approaches to immigration; but will need to continue on themes of more prison places, toughness on crime, national security, etc. It's a tall order for them to come back to an election winning perspective at all, but they certainly cannot win through social liberalism. Their main issues is actually they have too many deluded MPs that would be better off in the Green Party or somewhere else - ironically it's the MPs that may ultimately destroy Labour by blocking vote-winning legislation. I believe that, while there is the strategic intelligence at the top to change to the winning formula of semi-left economics infused with semi-authoritarian social policies, too many MPs are in the kamikaze camp of economic left and social liberalism: the most dangerous and unpopular combination there is (refer to Corbyn for details).

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

The good thing about Reform UK is that it has forced the party in power to stop ignoring some pretty obvious stuff about allowing unlimited numbers of people into the country and the associated prices to pay for that.

We have never allowed unlimited numbers of people into the UK.

The Conservative Party was elected in 2010 on a platform of significantly reducing net migration from "hundreds of thousands" to just the "tens of thousands" annually.

The Conservatives forced a referendum in 2015 on our membership within the European Union, primarily on the issue of immigration.

The Reform Party haven't forced any party in power to do anything. Although, for some reason, the self confessed racists, traitors, xenophobes, and anti-semites that make up the Reform party are still living rent free in all of our heads.

There is no good thing about a party which aligns themselves with actual neo-Nazis.

It's a tall order for them to come back to an election winning perspective at all, but they certainly cannot win through social liberalism. Their main issues is actually they have too many deluded MPs that would be better off in the Green Party or somewhere else

It is unsurprising that the MPs of a party which was founded as a result of the trade union and socialist parties of the 19th century have left leaning views. It is not the MPs and members who are out of touch, it is the leadership who have forgotten their founding principles.

There is no point being in power if you're not going to do anything meaningful with it. Keir Starmer's government have been solely focussed on the 2029 election since the day they stepped into office. Completely forgetting their relatively unprecedented majority and ability to pass whichever meaningful legislation they wanted to. This is entirely a government of missed opportunity.

economic left and social liberalism: the most dangerous and unpopular combination there is

It's not the economic and social liberalists who are calling for large out of town warehouses / concentration camps, where indentured serfs are forced to live because they have the misfortune of being unemployed. That sounds the most dangerous to me.

 

[Osaka12]

I'm no expert in politics, but I doubt the conservatives are going to reinvent to become centrist, given that they are a right wing party that shows no signs of lightening up on that. Probably the closest thing this country has to a centrist party right now is the lib dems or even the current government. Although I'd argue current labour is closer to right-wing.

No, absolutely not. The issue is the left has become extreme and the right has become extreme. Good values and freedom is apparently extremist. And so is socialism. There's no middle for some reason. I'm glad I don't engage in social media and can use my own experience to generate an opinion.

 

[Tom]

We have never allowed unlimited numbers of people into the UK.

The Conservative Party was elected in 2010 on a platform of significantly reducing net migration from "hundreds of thousands" to just the "tens of thousands" annually.

The Conservatives forced a referendum in 2015 on our membership within the European Union, primarily on the issue of immigration.

The Reform Party haven't forced any party in power to do anything. Although, for some reason, the self confessed racists, traitors, xenophobes, and anti-semites that make up the Reform party are still living rent free in all of our heads.

There is no good thing about a party which aligns themselves with actual neo-Nazis.

It is unsurprising that the MPs of a party which was founded as a result of the trade union and socialist parties of the 19th century have left leaning views. It is not the MPs and members who are out of touch, it is the leadership who have forgotten their founding principles.

There is no point being in power if you're not going to do anything meaningful with it. Keir Starmer's government have been solely focussed on the 2029 election since the day they stepped into office. Completely forgetting their relatively unprecedented majority and ability to pass whichever meaningful legislation they wanted to. This is entirely a government of missed opportunity.

It's not the economic and social liberalists who are calling for large out of town warehouses / concentration camps, where indentured serfs are forced to live because they have the misfortune of being unemployed. That sounds the most dangerous to me.

Numbers have never been capped, and there has never been any kind of numerical "emergency brake" as previously attempted to be gained by Cameron before the EU referendum, or anything else as far as I am aware. Numbers are therefore effectively unlimited until they are put into reverse by policy, which they now, for the moment, appear to be.

Reform's performance in the polls has forced policy/narrative changes in both Labour and the Conservative Party, I see that as both obvious and undeniable.

You are, as many people do, conflating economic leftism with social liberalism (or social leftism if you insist). Trade unionism and original socialism has never been particularly liberal: just imagine a Pride event being staged in a working man's club. Labour's traditional base is economic left and social conservatism/mild authoritarianism.

This new breed of liberal-left alienates the original socialist background voters, who in large part were/are small-C conservative which is why such numbers transferred to the Conservatives in 2019, and now Reform today.

Your point on their majority is exactly what I am address, there is a sufficient chasm in the various factions that major left-right shifts would be blocked by either side. They tried to cut welfare, their MPs wouldn't allow it. The parliamentary party is paralysed because both sides think they know the answer to becoming popular again and won't let the other progress.

Lastly, the danger I'm talking about from the deadly liberal-left combination is more an existential one as some people seriously believe you can virtually eradicate the armed forces, and allow unrestricted flows of immigration into the country because we should be "welcoming to all", or whatever their mantra is this week.

I'm effectively offering narrative and prediction on strategy, rather than arguing any kind of morals or what should be happening. Reform is determining the policy approach of both of the (former) main two parties. Both are scrapping to occupy the second top spot alongside Reform.

 

[Quantum]

No, absolutely not. The issue is the left has become extreme and the right has become extreme. Good values and freedom is apparently extremist. And so is socialism. There's no middle for some reason. I'm glad I don't engage in social media and can use my own experience to generate an opinion.

This page s because the centre right and centre left have failed. Reform and the Greens exist as a result of Tory and Labour party failure.

People are so dissolutioned with regular politics they are willing to take a change on anyone who can turn the courtry arounD.

 

[Osaka12]

People are incentivised by money. That's it.

 

[Tom]

This page s because the centre right and centre left have failed. Reform and the Greens exist as a result of Tory and Labour party failure.

People are so dissolutioned with regular politics they are willing to take a change on anyone who can turn the courtry arounD.

Completely agree. Blair and Thatcher delivered noticeable benefits in the way a plurality (at least) people lived their lives. You only need to please a third of the population at most under this voting system. By the way when was the last time Farage said he’d ditch it? Seems to have gone quiet lately.

Switching back to forced relocations of people, this was already rolled out under the Conservative Party:

English councils pay millions to move homeless families out of big cities

Guardian analysis reveals families often given little notice to relocate to already deprived communities far away with no extra support

www.theguardian.com

It’s a result of our biggest cities being overwhelmed by a lack of housing and services to cope with population levels and underfunding, exacerbated by the right wing coup of Brexit and the ironic but directly resultant surge of immigration afterwards.

The movement of people from expensive cities to smaller more deprived towns, whose services cannot cope with extra people, would only be exacerbated by Farage and Reform, who would cut benefit costs by relocating even more people to deprived areas with empty houses. Ironically these areas voted for Brexit, the Conservative Party and likely now Reform, in massive numbers.

The most deprived are always the most betrayed by parties of right wing economics, whose populist promises seek to target them as voters.

Even though it is very little, Labour has delivered more for deprived communities in 18 months than the Conservative Party did in 10 years of (sole) government.

Reform would almost certainly be even worse than the Tories for the working and non-working classes. Nothing Farage has ever promised would happen (or even could happen)…..has ever happened post Brexit, and no, he didn’t say he needed to be in power for certain things to happen. Mogg and all the other thieves actually in power were promising lower prices and reduced immigration post-Brexit as well.

It’s tempting to say people deserve what they vote for, but I don’t fall into the trap of saying people are dumb. Right wing conmen have made it their lives’ work to come up with populist systems that target people’s genuine fears and grievances. The key should be to keep calling them out and holding them to account, but sadly history tells us people usually have to experience the pain of liars in power before they realise they’ve been had.

 

[BarryZola]

It's not the economic and social liberalists who are calling for large out of town warehouses / concentration camps, where indentured serfs are forced to live because they have the misfortune of being unemployed. That sounds the most dangerous to me.

To be fair, I think that was just me. I don't think any party has come up with that one yet as a talking point. I think I'm just ahead of the curve (unless I've missed it in the mainstream)

 

[rob666]

People are incentivised by money. That's it.

Some people are incentivized by money...That's it.
You may be.
Many aren't.

If I was incentivized by money, would I have chosen to go part time, when my services were very much in demand for a good wage?
Part time for the majority of my working life now, I am proud to say, because I prioritised family welfare, marriage, and fun.

Don't think you can speak for everybody.

Blair shifted the left to the centre, failed to correct the nasty divisions created by Thatcher, and dumped higher tax rates that were needed, to keep in power.
As a nation, we haven't covered our costs in many decades, and recent massive costs caused by covid have not been covered.
We are stuck in a mire of increasing debt, that is expensive to service, and taxation is not covering it.
So we walk blindly towards an extremely dubious future economically.
No votes in taxation.

 

[Benzin]

People want the services but not the increase in tax to afford it.

Those who could potentially pay more tax throw their toys out the pram as seen with the new tax on £2m houses.

If they'd rather go live in Dubai then they can lose the privileges that UK dom status provides. Meaning you can't move willy nilly then vote for stuff back here that doesn't effect you. Or in the case of the ex-pats in Spain voting for something that you're expressly told will affect you but believe the snake oil salesmen that it won't.

The system is crumbling and the amount of people being left behind is no good for anyone. Yet the system we are lurching towards requires this so people will vote for the hope of change being dangled in front of them. We only have to look at the leopard face eating going on in the USA now to see where the road leads.