[🌎 Universal GB] Impact on the UK market

[Craig]

Impact on the UK Market Discussion​

Welcome to the Universal GB Impact on the UK Market discussion. This is the place to discuss the wider project that this project could have on the UK market.

Don’t forget we also have a number of other topics:

[ Universal GB] General Discussion​

General discussion, news and updates about the resort. It’s also the place for speculation and discussion about potential IPs, areas, rides and attractions.

[ Universal GB] Planning, Transport and Infrastructure​

Detailed discussion on the planning process along with talk about road, rail and infrastructure changes that need to take place to allow the resort to open.

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If you’ve not been here for a while, we’d also recommend checking out the project timeline topic (coming soon) to review the latest major updates.

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[SuperMuscleMan]

I think this topic should be changed to the European market. I think not only will it have an impact on the attractions in the UK but personally if Disneyland Paris thinks twirling toadstool with a paint job that's themed to balloons is a high standard attraction then it could have a wider impact on the European market.

The announcements from DLP including the excuse for not adding rides and attractions in the castle park are laughable.

 

[Hid]

Could Universal help bolster attendance at other UK Parks in particular Thorpe being close to the airport and Alton being currently the most significant park we have

 

[Bowser]

The announcements from DLP including the excuse for not adding rides and attractions in the castle park are laughable.

What’s this?

 

[RoyalFool]

I think this topic should be changed to the European market. I think not only will it have an impact on the attractions in the UK but personally if Disneyland Paris thinks twirling toadstool with a paint job that's themed to balloons is a high standard attraction then it could have a wider impact on the European market.

The announcements from DLP including the excuse for not adding rides and attractions in the castle park are laughable.

Absolutely, we currently go to DLRP once or twice a year, but the traveling takes up 30% of the total cost, so I optimistically see this Universal park being our new "home park" and probably just visiting DLRP when they build a new E-ticket, so maybe once every 10 years based on their Frozenland construction rate.

As for the talk (not here but just in general) that this is a good thing for Merlin, as visitors will want to come here to do multiple theme parks, I just can't believe that in all honesty, the Merlin parks have been underfunded for so long, have become so rundown, the rides so unreliable. I think if Universal bring their A-game and give us a genuine world class park with theming that isn't "hey it's themed to looked run-down, it's not actually run-down, honest!" that a lot of people will never go back to Merlin, and certainly wouldn't recommend them to visitors coming here without some major management level changes.

Smaller parks aimed towards the younger demographic like Paultons will be pretty much unaffected, they are too out of the way to attract the London tourists, and cater to a very different demographic.

 

[Smiley]

I can see TP and Legoland gaining attendance being close to London/LHR, also Chessy if they bring their A-game to MinecraftLand (or whatever). As these will be much cheaper options to Universal, then they can be "add-on" days, especially for non UK residents. Pricing depends on a lot - I wouldn't be surprised if they charge north of £60 for a discounted ticket.

 

[Hid]

I think a lot of UK Parks are gearing up for something big.

Pleasure Beach Overhauling the entire park
Chessington Overhauling

Towers Overhauling various rides and refreshing infrastructure.

Thorpe has just been refreshed

Even Pleasurewood Hills, Drayton Manor, Paultons Park, Fantasy Island are refreshing themselves

In preparation for Universal which is 6 years till then

 

[Smiley]

But where will they position themselves?? Paultons/Legoland have such great theming across the park they are quite safe. For the rest, you're not going to compete with a brand new park with the kind of cash Universal have. A clever marketeer will jump on the back of the hype and increase revenue/loyalty in the meantime, especially as the Uni park will open with only parts complete.

 

[Matt N]

But where will they position themselves?? Paultons/Legoland have such great theming across the park they are quite safe. For the rest, you're not going to compete with a brand new park with the kind of cash Universal have. A clever marketeer will jump on the back of the hype and increase revenue/loyalty in the meantime, especially as the Uni park will open with only parts complete.

I think they can position themselves as cheaper.

Make no mistake, Universal will be expensive. Not everyone can afford Universal, and not everyone wants to pay their prices. This is where I feel the Merlin parks (and others in the UK) come in; somewhere like Alton Towers could provide that “major park” experience for a lower price tag than Universal.

Some on here may dismiss price and say that Merlin needs to charge more, but for a great many in this country, they are priced out of a ridiculously expensive product. Universal will be high end, and if Merlin also goes high end, that puts them in the firing line in a battle that Universal would almost definitely win.

But if Merlin offers good value for money with a cheap product, I feel that they could easily differentiate themselves from Universal.

 

[Kraken27]

I can see Universal GB pricing themselves at a very similar price-point to DisneyLand Paris. Both would be world-class parks so could command a high admission fee. A one-day 1 park ticket for DLP is just over £100 at present - and Disney never do BOGOF offers. London - like Paris - is a popular tourist city so guests from abroad would likely visit London & tag a day or two at Universal on. Universals pricing would be quite a shock for Brits who have not visited Florida / California / DLP and are used to BOGOF offers on crisp packets & cereal boxes galore.

I think Merlin would have to admit defeat and drop down to be second-tier parks for those who cannot afford Universal. Both Merlin & other parks such as BPB are already making noises that they are unhappy with the way Universal is being steam-rollered through as a major infrastructure development, when Merlin parks and BPB have to do battles with the local planning authorities.

Also, I don't think Merlin have the money in the coffers to bring their parks up to anything like Universal standards in 6 years, as they have got years and years of neglect to put right. As to BPB, they are not operating some rides on quieter days to save money due to decreased attendance.

Slightly off-topic, but it will be interesting to see how the likes of Phantasialand & Europa Park respond. I have a good friend who is a huge Disney fan (visits DLP at least once a year) & introduced him to the aforementioned two German parks. We had only been in Phantasialand 5mins and he was already saying "this theming beats DIsney" - and Europa Park is better still. Personally I don't think either park will be worried as Universal will be far enough away not to affect them - particularly in the case of Europa Park which is perfectly located to draw it's market from Germany, France & Switzerland.

 

[James]

I can see Universal GB pricing themselves at a very similar price-point to DisneyLand Paris. Both would be world-class parks so could command a high admission fee. A one-day 1 park ticket for DLP is just over £100 at present - and Disney never do BOGOF offers. London - like Paris - is a popular tourist city so guests from abroad would likely visit London & tag a day or two at Universal on. Universals pricing would be quite a shock for Brits who have not visited Florida / California / DLP and are used to BOGOF offers on crisp packets & cereal boxes galore.

I think that will be a challenge for Universal, although I'm sure with some clever marketing, they will be able to push sales. This is where Merlin, being the 'cheaper' option, will be beneficial to them to continue to keep guests flowing in, with Universal being perceived more as a rare/expensive holiday.

I think Merlin would have to admit defeat and drop down to be second-tier parks for those who cannot afford Universal.

Are they not already?

Even price-wise, just having a quick look for a 2-day ticket this weekend: DLP £190, Alton Towers £51, Thorpe Park £74, Chessington £68, Legoland £82 (all based on one adult). There's a key difference in pricing between Merlin Parks and DLP, without considering Merlin deals and the MAP, which I imagine we will see a huge push for marketing as Universal Park develops. Aside from that, Universal will aim to compete with DLP, not sub-standard domestic parks. Merlin will concentrate on the domestic market and MAP sales.

Also, I don't think Merlin have the money in the coffers to bring their parks up to anything like Universal standards in 6 years, as they have got years and years of neglect to put right.

They certainly have the money, but they won't go down that route as it's not their business, they don't need to.

-

I feel Merlin will continue running as it has for years. They will position themselves as the cheaper options (which they already are) and push MAP sales as a perk for those living in the UK. The most significant impact will likely be the first year or two of Universal GB's opening, as people will visit out of curiosity.

I think what Merlin needs to do in the next 6 years is simply to sort out their parks, get them running well and improve things like F&B and entertainment. Get the basics right.

 

[Dave]

But where will they position themselves?? Paultons/Legoland have such great theming across the park they are quite safe. For the rest, you're not going to compete with a brand new park with the kind of cash Universal have. A clever marketeer will jump on the back of the hype and increase revenue/loyalty in the meantime, especially as the Uni park will open with only parts complete.

Neither Lego nor Paultons have great theming, they have good theming. Neither come close to Universal and Paultons is geographically limited.

I suspect Merlin if sensible will aim for something like Asterix, boost theming quality, build interesting rides but not try and compete with Universals broader luxury brand. As others have said Universal is going to be eye wateringly expensive and Universal have made it clear they expect a large part of their audience to be international. Merlin will push for the yearly visit expecting most UK residents might treat themselves to a universal trip every 3 to 5 years.

If I was Merlin I would:

Make Chessington an IP park (seem to be doing that)

Make Thorpe a liseberg style amusement park.

Keep Towers as the all rounder but boost quality.

Lego is Lego

 

[Rob]

Merlin will continue to operate their theme parks as regional style parks. They'll be significantly cheaper than Universal, and that will mean the demand will still be there. But the added competition will hopefully lead to an increase in quality across the board.

Universal will be an international theme park, and so long as Merlin do keep investing in their parks then there are punters in the market for them to be successful.

I think there is potential for a greater impact on DLP than there is on most other UK parks, but a lot can change between now and the early 2030s.

 

[danlouislucy]

Neither Lego nor Paultons have great theming, they have good theming. Neither come close to Universal and Paultons is geographically limited.

I suspect Merlin if sensible will aim for something like Asterix, boost theming quality, build interesting rides but not try and compete with Universals broader luxury brand. As others have said Universal is going to be eye wateringly expensive and Universal have made it clear they expect a large part of their audience to be international. Merlin will push for the yearly visit expecting most UK residents might treat themselves to a universal trip every 3 to 5 years.

If I was Merlin I would:

Make Chessington an IP park (seem to be doing that)

Make Thorpe a liseberg style amusement park.

Keep Towers as the all rounder but boost quality.

Lego is Lego

Liseberg style?

 

[Lewis232]

Surely Universal GB will be marketed mostly as a London tourist destination, in the same way Disneyland Paris is marketed as a Paris tourist destination. A quick google suggests London gets around 20 million tourists per year and a large number of those will take trains on day breaks or weekend breaks to places like Windsor, Cambridge, York, Edinburgh or somewhere in the countryside and I think many will instead now to go to Universal instead, so the impact may be on those and other cities instead. Universal themselves have stated that 40% of people are expected to arrive by train and in TPWWs video they were talking about “filling up” the empty trains returning from London in the morning. So I don’t think DLP will be too affected in the same way the Eiffel tower does not compete with the Tower of London.

Of course it will get a lot of domestic visitors from all over the UK as well but I’m not sure Alton Towers and others will be too affected. It is still a decent day out, millions live within a couple of hours drive / school trip and their accommodation is still quite nice for a small trip away. For me personally as a London resident who does not drive it’s only going to be about 40 minutes away from Kings Cross by train so if I time it right I can get there door to door in about an hour. To get to Alton Towers it takes hours and I have to use a taxi for part of that, Thorpe also takes a couple of hours when you factor in the trip to Waterloo and the bus on the other side. So Merlin might be impacted by non-car drivers like me and the teenagers on the Thorpe bus but I imagine we’re not a huge part of their market.

 

[Smiley]

It going to have a HUGE impact IMHO. Starting with those that buy MAP might instead buy a one-off Universal ticket, especially if the quality/experience is there.

The bigger issue is that Universal have deep pockets. How do Merlin and others respond?? Paultons can take the middle ground/price point, as can Chessy/Legoland but that fragments Merlin a bit, if they need a bigger investment in these parks. Fortunately they've got a few years to create a battleplan

 

[RoyalFool]

Most of the people I know who are not massive theme-park fans have never known anything other than Merlin, like one friend goes to Thorpe-park every few years, knows what the newest ride is there, but has never stepped foot in a Disney or a Universal park, Florida is on their bucket list, but it's so far from the top I don't think they'll ever actually go.

When I try to at least convince them to give DLRP a try, it's a short flight away! I just get the usual "I heard eurodisney was disappointing.." like they had some mild interest back when it first opened, heard it wasn't great, then just tuned out for the last 20 years.

So what excites me most about having a universal here, is it's no longer a massive ask to get a lot of people I know to finally visit a world class theme park, merlin parks are not that cheap when you just go for a single day, and factor in the stupid food costs, travel etc, even with the BOGOF tickets they plaster on every soap and cereal box, I think many people, who go maybe once every few years, will happily pay more for a day that's just on a completely different level.

 

[Matt.GC]

Now that it's almost a done deal, Merlin will now start drawing up a battle plan. And I'm sorry to disappoint the "upping their game" and "investing" due to "competition " crowd, but this won't happen. Please, someone give me a single logical reason as to why this would make any strategic sense?

The Merlin parks continue to be driven into the ground, and no layer of paint on old facade's at Thorpe, polystyrene pots at Chessington, or single occupancy helicopter on some papier mache "rocks" at Towers will make up for that fact. Merlin is private equity owned, which means they'll want a quick return and then get the hell out of there.

That's why you're experiencing crappier and crappier parks every year. Squeezing margin out of past glories, hoping that by time you notice they've made enough quick bucks, bugger off with their returns, and invest them in another company. Rinse and repeat. Some of your pension funds may be invested in them right now.

Whoever ends up owning these parks afterwards will position them as the bargain basement parks they are already becoming.

Best you can hope for their future is that Blackstone get stuck in their investment. That way they'd have to do something to make them attractive to flog them on. But I doubt that would happen, and even that could potentymot be pretty. I reckon they already have 1 foot out the door.

Expect further down market parks. Universal being the one off special occasion posh restaurant, Alton Towers being a Big Mac and chips when there's nothing in the fridge.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Now that it's almost a done deal, Merlin will now start drawing up a battle plan. And I'm sorry to disappoint the "upping their game" and "investing" due to "competition " crowd, but this won't happen. Please, someone give me a single logical reason as to why this would make any strategic sense?

The Merlin parks continue to be driven into the ground, and no layer of paint on old facade's at Thorpe, polystyrene pots at Chessington, or single occupancy helicopter on some papier mache "rocks" at Towers will make up for that fact. Merlin is private equity owned, which means they'll want a quick return and then get the hell out of there.

That's why you're experiencing crappier and crappier parks every year. Squeezing margin out of past glories, hoping that by time you notice they've made enough quick bucks, bugger off with their returns, and invest them in another company. Rinse and repeat. Some of your pension funds may be invested in them right now.

Whoever ends up owning these parks afterwards will position them as the bargain basement parks they are already becoming.

Best you can hope for their future is that Blackstone get stuck in their investment. That way they'd have to do something to make them attractive to flog them on. But I doubt that would happen, and even that could potentymot be pretty. I reckon they already have 1 foot out the door.

Expect further down market parks. Universal being the one off special occasion posh restaurant, Alton Towers being a Big Mac and chips when there's nothing in the fridge.

It's felt really rather dull here without you. Welcome back.

🪿

 

[flyingguitar]

Universal will be an international theme park, and so long as Merlin do keep investing in their parks then there are punters in the market for them to be successful.

I am not so sure about that, I am not sure about DLP but in florida about 20% of visitors at Disney are from the UK, it is a big part of those parks.

I am not saying that all of the traffic will dry up, but there is a very large demand for that style of parks from the UK, consider that 20% won't include the people who may be unable to afford the multiple grand it costs to travel to America as a family, but a couple hundred quid may be more possible.


I think for merlin they will probably:
Continue improving AT areas (they have done it was FV, the curse, etc and they need to continue around the park bringing up the qualities of the areas such as DF, TWODW and X sector)

Install a couple new rides at Thorpe, from my perspective they want Thorpe to have a very unique and "thrill" line up possibly replacing rumba or the island behind swarm (I would like that, it could connect stealth and swarms rarther than having to walk all the way arround tidal wave) I would imagine this may be 1 of 2 things, 1) a thrill coaster (RMC, Imtamin blitz etc) trying to target the thrill marked, or 2) a family thrill, (a good intamin multi dimension, or something similar to wickerman??) trying to expand the line up to fit more of the family (I think this would be the best choice) I think the park could do with some improvement here and there but most of it is in a reasonable place.

Chessington: finish project play and refresh, they are in a good position I would guess they could then look at re-doing one of the areas (adventure point, or the land of the tigers maybe)