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Thorpe Park: General Discussion

Well it would either mean they'd be forced to properly invest in Thorpe again (and Chessington) or they'd be looking to sell (or close the parks) quickly.

Guess we'll see, as if planning permission is given and construction actually starts you'd expect the nearby parks to announce projects to compete with (or piggy back off) the new resort. If they don't announce anything probably would imply merlin have already given up.
 
Rick said:
I think it's intended that the parks will be very different offerings, in the same way that Asterix & DLP and Tokyo Disney & Yomiuriland happily coexist.

Thorpe is part of the wider Merlin eco-system and pricing and (if you believe this thread) offers a lower quality experience than a resort destination is intended to deliver. The number of Southbank tourists that take the chugger out to Staines is quite low, but London Resort is intended to be large enough to attract people out of the city for a day, or two with good transport connections.

Merlin haven't gone down that route with Thorpe, the plans for a 'proper' hotel seem to have very much stalled.
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I agree, I don't think the new park will really be direct competition. Thorpe Park may go more "Six Flags" and concentrate more on lightly themed rollercoasters and thrill rides. I expect the new London resort is going more down the Disney/Universal route of highly themed attractions.

It will be interesting what the change to annual passes brings about though and whether Chessington and Thorpe see a drop in visitor numbers if there are fewer passholders.
 
jon81uk said:
It will be interesting what the change to annual passes brings about though and whether Chessington and Thorpe see a drop in visitor numbers if there are fewer passholders.
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Haven't they already seen a drop in visitor numbers since 2017/2018 though even without new competition?
 
Tidal Wave theming has been left to literally rot to pieces. I suspect this will have to be removed. I’d be very surprised if it was replaced. Happy to be wrong though!

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Ivsetti said:
Haven't they already seen a drop in visitor numbers since 2017/2018 though even without new competition?
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I think Thorpe (and Chessington) have relied quite a lot on annual passholders in the last few years and the changes with covid meaning more day guests means Merlin are now trying to reduce the number of passholders.
 
Thorpe is in dire need of something. I don’t believe that they draw too much of a crowd from further a field. When I was younger I craved to go to Thorpe Park, it seemed like THE place for coasters. I finally went in 2015 and it was great, but really not had anything added to the experience since then. Yes we got DBGT (great) but they ruined X, removed loggers, closed slammer and nicked some flats from Weymouth and that’s about it. Very much relying on teens to visit year in year out as the “cool” place to go and running events.

I personally think that Thorpe needs another coaster and they definitely have the space for one if they cleared the space of stuff that they have closed. I genuinely think Merlin are starting to forget about this worlds first thing and so they should. I believe this will be a unpopular opinion but I’d rather then build something that isn’t overly expensive, but marketable and most importantly decent but slap a sponsorship deal on it! I know COVID has totally destroyed any budget Thorpe Park was probably going to get but I personally wouldn’t mind if they build a cheapest coaster, Something like a Premier Rides Sky Rocket II, loosely themed it and slapped a sponsor on it. I’m sure I heard Blackpool got £5mill for the Pepsi sponsorship deal? It would just freshen the line-up a bit and just get some guests flowing again whist they get there post COVID LTDP into action.
 
There will be no large scale coaster at any UK Merlin Park for a while now. 2020 will have hurt them a lot and 2021 isn't going to be a lot better. We will still have social distancing and reduced capacity until very late on into this year I would have thought too.

I think Thorpe will be the last thing on their minds too given that the last 2 large scale additions there haven't boosted attendances like they'd want them to. I think we're witnessing the beginning of the end for Thorpe personally. Merlin don't seem to care about it anymore and on the still for now unlikely chance that the London Resort actually goes ahead I think Thorpe is doomed anyway.

Merlin would be wiser to continue to fund Towers and Legoland as they actually see a return on the investments there.
 
I don't think another big coaster is what Thorpe needs now, but then I'm not sure what would be best. Probably a reasonable woodie to replace loggers leap and also add another non-inverted coaster with a lower height restriction to the line up.

Although if it was up to me I would have spent the DBGT money on a proper dark ride instead of untested virtual reality junk.
 
jon81uk said:
I don't think another big coaster is what Thorpe needs now, but then I'm not sure what would be best. Probably a reasonable woodie to replace loggers leap and also add another non-inverted coaster with a lower height restriction to the line up.

Although if it was up to me I would have spent the DBGT money on a proper dark ride instead of untested virtual reality junk.
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The Swarm didn't bring in the numbers they were hoping for. DBGT certainly didn't either. I seriously doubt we'll be seeing anything large scale going in for a long time now, possibly ever again. It's a park that simply doesn't make them enough money.
 
Benjsh said:
The Swarm didn't bring in the numbers they were hoping for. DBGT certainly didn't either. I seriously doubt we'll be seeing anything large scale going in for a long time now, possibly ever again. It's a park that simply doesn't make them enough money.
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It's true that those attractions probably didn't have the impact on attendance that Merlin hoped for, but it's also true that attendance doesn't have a direct mapping to profitability, particularly given the passholder mix in the Merlin parks.

That said, you get to a point in this industry where you have to build in order to maintain attendance, rather than trying to grow it. Aside from Flamingo Land (maybe Paultons, sort of), I am not sure any park transformed itself as much as Thorpe from 2000 onwards, that level of investment was never going to continue indefinitely. You reach a ceiling, arguably Thorpe is pretty much there.
 
If they’re up against something like the London Resort (big if) in a few years time, then Thorpe will have to diversify or die.

In essence they’ll have to once again work out who their target market is, and it’ll have to be quite different to what the London Resort one is, if they’re going to have any chance of sustaining visitation or even growing. If the London Resort targets families more heavily then Thorpe have the opportunity to reinvent themselves (once again) as a ‘thrill capital’. If this London Resort manages to get off the ground and also target a broad range of people across different ages and demographics then this could be a real problem.

The other thing is that the Merlin parks, especially Thorpe, try to market nationally and regionally. This is successful at places like Legoland and Alton but I’d argue Thorpe and Chessington have declined so much that they’re becoming solely regional parks.
 
Benjsh said:
I seriously doubt we'll be seeing anything large scale going in for a long time now, possibly ever again.
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Every park knows you need to invest or the attendance plummets otherwise it'll be a case of "been there, done that". And once people are actually in the park they need to have a good time (3.5 stars for a "regional theme park" is still pretty poor).
I doubt Thorpe Park have reached the market "ceiling" (and therefore IMO Merlin will probably continue to invest but not as much as before) but simply their current offering isn't as exciting and fresh to many people as it used to be and IMO they should really address the large amount of complaints they get (over the last 2 years their operations have actually become pretty good but there's the many other common issues that they still have - cobwebs on the trains/seats anyone?).
 
Ivsetti said:
Every park knows you need to invest or the attendance plummets otherwise it'll be a case of "been there, done that". And once people are actually in the park they need to have a good time (3.5 stars for a "regional theme park" is still pretty poor).
I doubt Thorpe Park have reached the market "ceiling" (and therefore IMO Merlin will probably continue to invest but not as much as before) but simply their current offering isn't as exciting and fresh to many people as it used to be and IMO they should really address the large amount of complaints they get (over the last 2 years their operations have actually become pretty good but there's the many other common issues that they still have - cobwebs on the trains/seats anyone?).
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Which is why I think this could be the beginning of the end for them. If another theme park operator came in and offered them a fair market price to take over Thorpe, Merlin would rip their hands off if you ask me.

The place just doesn't make them enough money. They have Legoland and Chessington doing really well with the family market but the thrill ride market is dwindling away a lot. Having a full park dedicated to mainly thrill rides seems an enthusiasts dream but it isn't to the GP. Why? Because families have kids of all ages and they want diversity.

If the London Resort does get built then Thorpe is finished for me. Then we might see them start to move attractions from Thorpe to some of the other Merlin owned parks.
 
Hard to tell in 2020, but in 2018/19 the park was still pretty rammed on my visits, with good operations bar the usual culprits.

I don't think a good chunk of guests are as apathetic as many coaster nerds. Totally agree that you can't dine out on bouncy castles and events forever, but it seems to be working in the medium term.

I think part of the problem with Thorpe is that a core part of the audience that they target aren't big spenders and a good chunk of them have a Merlin pass.

Big supporter of a B&M hyper, but I am not sure why that would have a bigger impact than The Swarm.
 
Be amazing to get a B&M hyper in the UK. My favourite manufacturer and also my favourite model of coaster they sell.

However I'm not convinced a B&M hyper would make economic sense for Thorpe. As we know they are incredibly expensive to build. Would they see a decent return on that investment? Not sure on that tbh.

Difficult to know what the future holds for the place really. Saw n Collosus need a major refurb by all accounts too. Been a few years since I last visited but they were as rough as hell when I last ride them.

I suppose we shall see what happens over next 2 years.
 
In the short term I don’t know if a B&M hyper would have had a bigger impact than the Swarm. However, since they get such poor feedback on Trip Advisor and the biggest source of complaints is the queues, adding several really high throughput rides over a period of time would have a benefit. Two parks that really show this are Canada’s Wonderland and Europa Park.

Canada’s Wonderland isn’t the highest rated park in the world by any means, but it does get a huge number of visitors spread over a small number of days. In 2019 Canada’s Wonderland was the 13th most visited park in North America, getting more visitors than Cedar Point and Magic Mountain. Canada’s Wonderland also has a very short season. On peak days it gets Disney sized crowds. To help them cope they’ve got two B&M hyper coasters (one’s a giga) and a B&M dive machine. These are probably the highest throughput thrill coasters you can get, without having ‘special’ features like duel stations and continuous loading systems. The three B&M aren’t necessarily the most ‘interesting’ rides from a creative stand point, although Leviathan is incredibly thrilling. But they do help the park to manage their crowds.

Europa Park gets a lot of stick over its omnimovers. But having several rides that can be staffed by one or two people and do 1,300 guests an hour plus, has served the park really well. Even on the busiest days there are substantial rides you can go on with virtually no waiting. If Thorpe Park had a B&M hyper coaster that could do 1,400 guests and hour and an omnimover that could do 1,400 guests an hour, then I think their feedback would see an improvement.
 
Funcone said:
In the short term I don’t know if a B&M hyper would have had a bigger impact than the Swarm. However, since they get such poor feedback on Trip Advisor and the biggest source of complaints is the queues, adding several really high throughput rides over a period of time would have a benefit. Two parks that really show this are Canada’s Wonderland and Europa Park.

Canada’s Wonderland isn’t the highest rated park in the world by any means, but it does get a huge number of visitors spread over a small number of days. In 2019 Canada’s Wonderland was the 13th most visited park in North America, getting more visitors than Cedar Point and Magic Mountain. Canada’s Wonderland also has a very short season. On peak days it gets Disney sized crowds. To help them cope they’ve got two B&M hyper coasters (one’s a giga) and a B&M dive machine. These are probably the highest throughput thrill coasters you can get, without having ‘special’ features like duel stations and continuous loading systems. The three B&M aren’t necessarily the most ‘interesting’ rides from a creative stand point, although Leviathan is incredibly thrilling. But they do help the park to manage their crowds.

Europa Park gets a lot of stick over its omnimovers. But having several rides that can be staffed by one or two people and do 1,300 guests an hour plus, has served the park really well. Even on the busiest days there are substantial rides you can go on with virtually no waiting. If Thorpe Park had a B&M hyper coaster that could do 1,400 guests and hour and an omnimover that could do 1,400 guests an hour, then I think their feedback would see an improvement.
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Bit misleading.

Do Thorpe get big queues because of how busy it is though like those places do? Europa Park get over 5m visitors a year. Thorpe gets less than half that despite serving one of it not the biggest City in Europe.

Legoland gets more visitors than Thorpe do. They are much more in need of higher capacity rides.
 
Rick said:
That said, you get to a point in this industry where you have to build in order to maintain attendance, rather than trying to grow it. Aside from Flamingo Land (maybe Paultons, sort of), I am not sure any park transformed itself as much as Thorpe from 2000 onwards, that level of investment was never going to continue indefinitely. You reach a ceiling, arguably Thorpe is pretty much there.
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Thats true and it worked to really grow attendance in the short term, out of what was a small family park until then, but I feel there's still a lot of work to do. The park didn't grow the long term appeal it now needs during all that high investment

They made their one major appeal being 'big new coasters every year' and not much else, which is probably why they are seeing a decline now that the big coaster development has inevitably slowed down.

I guess the park realised this a few years ago when they tried rebrand as more of a destination, with an island theme and a broader appeal, but it was all just logos and signage, the park itself still isn't much of a destination

Clean up the theme park, add an indoor waterpark next to the beach maybe, lakeside hotel and nightclub, it could actually be more of a destination and live up to the brand. I think this was more or less their plan 10 years ago but they never comitted to it somehow, and we got the shipping container hotel instead etc
 
The reason that I think a B&M hyper would be more successful than The Swarm is because the size of the thing would literally sell itself, especially if it broke the UK height record. As much as John Wardley always said that records don’t matter, and I agree to a certain extent, you only have to look at what the Big One did for Blackpool Pleasure Beach (to use an example) to see that a large proportion of the public do care about records and unique selling points on their coasters to a certain degree.

There’s also one key difference I notice with how The Swarm was marketed in comparison with the other major thrill rides at Thorpe; the marketing focused more on the ride’s overall theme as opposed to a specific feature of the ride or theme. With every other ride at Thorpe, you had a specific feature focused on. For instance:
  • Colossus - World’s first 10-looping roller coaster; this was heavily emphasised in the marketing.
  • Nemesis Inferno - The inverted seating position and supposed thematic links with Nemesis at Alton Towers were utilised quite heavily in the promotional material.
  • Stealth - The launch and huge top hat were the key points of interest.
  • Saw: The Ride - The Saw IP provided quite a bit of pulling power here, but the park also put heavy emphasis on the ride’s beyond-vertical drop.
Even though Swarm had the USP of being the UK’s first wing coaster, I’ve never really seen that feature of it get heavily utilised within any of the marketing materials. I wasn’t in the community when Swarm was marketed, but all of the adverts and promo materials I’ve seen focused a lot more on the general apocalypse theme as opposed to this particular hook. I’m not saying that the strategy of marketing the theme over the physical ride features without an overall USP doesn’t work by any means (it certainly worked in the case of Wicker Man, for example), but all of Thorpe’s past ride successes seem to have focused on a particular feature of the ride and heavily emphasised it, which is why I think a B&M hyper would be a successful installation for them.

To be fair to The Swarm, though, I also don’t think some of the pre-existing circumstances helped; 2010 & 2011 were the park’s highest years in history at that point, and the park had likely hit a bit of a ceiling in terms of their guest figures, thus limiting the potential guest figure increase any new ride could bring. The rainy summer and external events (e.g. London 2012) happening in 2012 also didn’t help matters either.
 
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