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Existential Crisis? Towers and it's future

Right, after reading through this thread, recent Scarefest vlog videos and the hugely negative criticism from all over Social Media directed at Towers/Merlin from ride downtime, food, pricing etc, I have a very hot take in all this in which to quote that joke of 'Are we the baddies?' is that maybe we the enthusiasts to partly blame to the park's downfall too?

Now hear me out, I know many will say that enthusiasts make only a fraction of the target market that the park is aiming for yet nonetheless they do help give a rough estimate of that of the what the GP is feeling too at times and such a thing is not buying or renewing a MAP in which many will say after such a poor season or two are voting with their wallets in the hope that this will hit the higher ups where it hurts and they'll be forced to make them improve things. Now in an ideal world you'd think they'd be doing this with the likely amount of MAP's that haven't been renewed but it turns out to be a double age sword in which Merlin see differently to falling revenue in which the first thing they do is that this leads to further cuts in budgets across the board and when the following season is no better or even worse, more will not renew and a vicious circle starts to appear.

And this is not the only case, PB are in a similar situation in which there is no major increase in renewal which likely leads to similar sort of cuts and the same thing likely happens there too and it is kind of the same of most movies now a days in which from say a major tentpole franchise has some sort of supposed controversial element then it will lead to some moviegoers not to go to the cinema which they hope it'll lead to a film that they want but this leads to studio heads to start making cuts in the film and media landscape as a whole to save money and it only leads to us getting close for AI to replace actors and sorts sooner than later.

Anyway, to go back on topic, I can't help but notice that recent videos on YouTube videos on Towers seem not only negative, not in a constructive way either, but almost downright spiteful in which the infamous comment from Lift Hills and Thrills following the reopening of Hex asking was it worth reopening it which honestly was really disrespectable IMO in which imagine if you worked your backside off all year through much difficultly to get that ride working again only to get that sort of treatment? I'd feel like 'what's the point of carrying on?' and with all how negative Scarefest has been received by all these so-called influencers, even the normally positive TPWW has joined in on the Towers bash fest and the many, many negative comments on social media saying how awful their day was and I'd honestly be not surprised if morale is so low on the ground for the poorly paid and low number of staff having to try and make things work, as well as dealing with the usual angry customers going to the desk to complain can you honestly blame them for perhaps given up after what has been a pretty dismal year in total?

Now yes, Towers/Merlin do deserve to get called out for their failings and there are many to pick from but I feel it can be perhaps over hated in a way as I do feel for the poor staff having to put up with this as they are trying their best to get something to work and the question is what can be done? Sadly I fear that these influencers have already drawn their battlelines and are having a field day with Towers' failings and getting those clicks and views as there is nothing better than controversy sadly (just look at how much anti-Disney YouTube channels have been created alone!) and the black pilled enthusiasts are on the rise in this country and you could say the same for PB too for similar issues.

And what really gets grinds my gears to the moon and back is when you get so many saying that the park should do better yet oddly 90% never say how it can be better as if they have no clue what to do themselves which I fear we're past the point of constructive criticism in which Merlin I feel are likely fed up of anything negative said about them and have closed ranks and this leads to a real 'us vs them' scenario. Anyway, ranted more than I would have liked but honestly I have no idea what can be done as I'm not even technically minded like everyone else here and have likely just wasted my time writing this as no one will even think about how everything is not black and white and that maybe both sides from the owners and fans (and perhaps even outside elements from world events) have in tandem unintentionally played a part in the park's downfall.
 
QTXAdsy said:
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And what really gets grinds my gears to the moon and back is when you get so many saying that the park should do better yet oddly 90% never say how it can be better as if they have no clue what to do themselves which I fear we're past the point of constructive criticism in which Merlin I feel are likely fed up of anything negative said about them and have closed ranks and this leads to a real 'us vs them' scenario. Anyway, ranted more than I would have liked but honestly I have no idea what can be done as I'm not even technically minded like everyone else here and have likely just wasted my time writing this as no one will even think about how everything is not black and white and that maybe both sides from the owners and fans (and perhaps even outside elements from world events) have in tandem unintentionally played a part in the park's downfall.
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This is a good point, but the queues at Scarefest have rarely been so long before, especially for such sustained periods of time, and the ride availability isn't exactly great. Maybe it's to do with the budget allocated, or it could be the staff/management, or probably a mix of the two. However, it is clear that something needs to be done to address what we are seeing at the moment, as all of this certainly isn't just enthusiast moaning.
 
Zeock said:
However, it is clear that something needs to be done to address what we are seeing at the moment, as all of this certainly isn't just enthusiast moaning.
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You are right in that regard, many comments from the GP have been as bad as those from the enthusiast community in which the difference being the latter go into more detail.

I would like to say cut them some slack but I feel many, very understandably have lost patience fully and have developed an utterly ludicrous zero tolerance approach on the park in which even a Towers at full strength from rides and accommodation alike would have struggled to meet.
 
QTXAdsy said:
'Are we the baddies?' is that maybe we the enthusiasts to partly blame to the park's downfall too?

Now hear me out, I know many will say that enthusiasts make only a fraction of the target market that the park is aiming for yet nonetheless they do help give a rough estimate of that of the what the GP is feeling too at times and such a thing is not buying or renewing a MAP in which many will say after such a poor season or two are voting with their wallets in the hope that this will hit the higher ups where it hurts and they'll be forced to make them improve things. Now in an ideal world you'd think they'd be doing this with the likely amount of MAP's that haven't been renewed but it turns out to be a double age sword in which Merlin see differently to falling revenue in which the first thing they do is that this leads to further cuts in budgets across the board and when the following season is no better or even worse, more will not renew and a vicious circle starts to appear.
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I know enthusiasts are a minority when it comes to the park's visitors however are the most vocal when it comes to the park whether it's the good, the bad and the ugly.

I do have to admit that the views on the queues, operations and reliability would likely be similar to those who are not enthusiasts which would be the common ground.

I can't deny that the enthusiast circles are growing and encompasses a larger demographic than ever before. That is due to the rise of theme park influencers and the fact that the Merlin Annual Passes are more accessible than ever before.

Whilst a few years ago, it was a niche. Nowadays, there are more enthusiasts than ever with quite a few of them getting into the hobby from their favourite YouTubers. I can see that passionate creators do help this hobby grow significantly.

It was YouTubers who covered the Hyperia construction over the last couple of years.

With this, I do think enthusiast voices will be very important in the years to come.
 
It doesn't look good really going forward, look at the major investments post covid

Retheming duel into Curse of Alton Manor
Reopening Sub Terra
Retracking Nemesis
Fixing Hex

Plus hiring some fairground rides.

You've now got Galactica and Oblivion, prototype rides now 20+ years old.

Rita, which is a coaster type that's quickly going out of existence.

Pinball aging quickly and runs reduced capacity every time it rains. Which isn't good in a country were the main weather is rain.

Next year they're finally opening a replacement for Ripsaw. Whilst they've still not replaced Twirling Toadstool, Submission, and Enterprise.

Basically at the current rate of ride breakdowns, and the need for replacing long gone and existing rides they'll be needing to spend millions in the coming decade to maybe have the same amount of rides and attractions as they have now. Basically treading water and hoping they don't get pulled under by the next wave.
 
owenstreet7 said:
I know enthusiasts are a minority when it comes to the park's visitors however are the most vocal when it comes to the park whether it's the good, the bad and the ugly.

I do have to admit that the views on the queues, operations and reliability would likely be similar to those who are not enthusiasts which would be the common ground.

I can't deny that the enthusiast circles are growing and encompasses a larger demographic than ever before. That is due to the rise of theme park influencers and the fact that the Merlin Annual Passes are more accessible than ever before.
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A once a year visitor will have a bad day. Moan for a couple of days and forget all about it. Next year they’ll be back.

A MAP holder will have a bad day, chalk it up to a bad day but nevermind, we can come again whenever we want. They’ll say they won’t renew thier pass after a few bad visits but they will because they know even with the bad days, they’re more than getting thier moneys worth.

An enthusiast will have a bad day. Write a review on here. Obsess over that bad day. Analyse data. Look at queue times even when not there. Share stories with others of thier bad day because they love talking about theme parks wether that be it other enthusiasts or their once a year visitor friends.

The last two are similar in that they will visit more and as such have more exposure and chance of a bad day. Theylll also talk more about the bad days than the good days. That’s the culture we live in. We are far happier sharing negative things than positive.

The child of one of the once a year visitors takes an Interest in theme parks. Starts watching vlogs and hears about the many many bad days others have had and mentions it to thier family. They decide to go somewhere else next year.

Yes, enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the overall park attendance but they have a far greater reach than we think.
 
I think once a year visitors who are visiting on this week in particular are actually far less likely to come again the following year. It’s not cheap for a family to go to Alton Towers, tickets, fuel/travel costs, parking, maybe even a hotel stay, food and gift shop spending. It costs hundreds of pounds for people make this once a year trip and they expect to have an enjoyable time.

If people don’t enjoy their one visit of the year they’re not going to forget it, they’ll remember how much it cost them and what they got out of the visit. They are more likely to make different plans the following year. It’s not like Towers is the only attraction in the uk, there are plenty of alternatives to try especially around Halloween.
 
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The bit I don’t think Merlin realise is their overall product is ****, dilapidated and badly run.

The idea that “same old” low medium low high capex cycles will get them through now is just wrong.

Efteling have just opened a 35 million euro attraction, that in many ways is a type of modern day madhouse. Alton struggle to reopen its own madhouse and in many respects, made it worse than the one which closed and struggled to install a new star curtain effect…it’s rough.

They muddled through and got one of the four Nemesis waterfalls working?

They are operating on a two or three year investment period but installing quality each time as that’s what the park needs.

This is something I’d much prefer Alton to do now but they can’t because it’s gone backwards. And the low investment now means they may never catch up.

Just to get back to a few years ago they need:
2 flats in x sector
1 flat in Dark Forest
4D cinema reopening
Dungeons re-theming and made free
Get the skyride back open
Repair some monorail trains

That takes them back to 2015. It shouldn’t really be major investment and should be fixable in 2 seasons with some effort. (Bar the monorail) But they won’t.

Then you look at every other aspect of what they’re doing and the place is rotting.

They need to scrap the events bar scarefest and fireworks and get back to basics of running a proper theme park.

Move the performers into a stage show or resort show (at the hotels) with the park stage in fountain square with a view to it being made permanent indoors as the place has needed for decades!

How they improve the built environment to the level of an Efteling/europa/phantasia and away from their current capability is a huge ask as they are a million million miles away from it in MMM/the UK sector sadly.

And I don’t say that gladly, I’m afraid they are. One off scenic items or more scattered items. But anything more than that and we’re back into shipping containers.

Buildings? Rockwork? Is it too much to ask.

They have stretched “re-used industrial” to its absolute limits but I see no signs of them stopping with Minecraft on the way. And god bless them they’ve kept leek signs game-fully employed but when is enough enough?

MMM just don’t produce modern, quality, contemporary thematic environments. Particularly buildings. It took them over 10 years till Wickerman arguably since oblivion they installed anything on the quality of Nemesis & Oblivion.

Sticking obscure references on junk isn’t quality theming…convince them they’re somewhere else first.

The food…the less said the better. You wouldn’t give it school kids and it’s extortionate.
 
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QTXAdsy said:
Right, after reading through this thread, recent Scarefest vlog videos and the hugely negative criticism from all over Social Media directed at Towers/Merlin from ride downtime, food, pricing etc, I have a very hot take in all this in which to quote that joke of 'Are we the baddies?' is that maybe we the enthusiasts to partly blame to the park's downfall too?

Now hear me out, I know many will say that enthusiasts make only a fraction of the target market that the park is aiming for yet nonetheless they do help give a rough estimate of that of the what the GP is feeling too at times and such a thing is not buying or renewing a MAP in which many will say after such a poor season or two are voting with their wallets in the hope that this will hit the higher ups where it hurts and they'll be forced to make them improve things. Now in an ideal world you'd think they'd be doing this with the likely amount of MAP's that haven't been renewed but it turns out to be a double age sword in which Merlin see differently to falling revenue in which the first thing they do is that this leads to further cuts in budgets across the board and when the following season is no better or even worse, more will not renew and a vicious circle starts to appear.

And this is not the only case, PB are in a similar situation in which there is no major increase in renewal which likely leads to similar sort of cuts and the same thing likely happens there too and it is kind of the same of most movies now a days in which from say a major tentpole franchise has some sort of supposed controversial element then it will lead to some moviegoers not to go to the cinema which they hope it'll lead to a film that they want but this leads to studio heads to start making cuts in the film and media landscape as a whole to save money and it only leads to us getting close for AI to replace actors and sorts sooner than later.

Anyway, to go back on topic, I can't help but notice that recent videos on YouTube videos on Towers seem not only negative, not in a constructive way either, but almost downright spiteful in which the infamous comment from Lift Hills and Thrills following the reopening of Hex asking was it worth reopening it which honestly was really disrespectable IMO in which imagine if you worked your backside off all year through much difficultly to get that ride working again only to get that sort of treatment? I'd feel like 'what's the point of carrying on?' and with all how negative Scarefest has been received by all these so-called influencers, even the normally positive TPWW has joined in on the Towers bash fest and the many, many negative comments on social media saying how awful their day was and I'd honestly be not surprised if morale is so low on the ground for the poorly paid and low number of staff having to try and make things work, as well as dealing with the usual angry customers going to the desk to complain can you honestly blame them for perhaps given up after what has been a pretty dismal year in total?

Now yes, Towers/Merlin do deserve to get called out for their failings and there are many to pick from but I feel it can be perhaps over hated in a way as I do feel for the poor staff having to put up with this as they are trying their best to get something to work and the question is what can be done? Sadly I fear that these influencers have already drawn their battlelines and are having a field day with Towers' failings and getting those clicks and views as there is nothing better than controversy sadly (just look at how much anti-Disney YouTube channels have been created alone!) and the black pilled enthusiasts are on the rise in this country and you could say the same for PB too for similar issues.

And what really gets grinds my gears to the moon and back is when you get so many saying that the park should do better yet oddly 90% never say how it can be better as if they have no clue what to do themselves which I fear we're past the point of constructive criticism in which Merlin I feel are likely fed up of anything negative said about them and have closed ranks and this leads to a real 'us vs them' scenario. Anyway, ranted more than I would have liked but honestly I have no idea what can be done as I'm not even technically minded like everyone else here and have likely just wasted my time writing this as no one will even think about how everything is not black and white and that maybe both sides from the owners and fans (and perhaps even outside elements from world events) have in tandem unintentionally played a part in the park's downfall.
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I agree that Alton Towers must be a pretty demoralising place to work at the moment, and I do genuinely feel for the people who have to work through this trying their best.

However this has absolutely nothing to do in any way shape or form with how the place is. It's a bin due to consciously made business decisions.

Can you imagine the board meeting?

"Right guys, let's agree on this £100m investment package for Alton Tow..... hang on a minute. Tracy has just text in and said a YouTuber is being mean about us and a Thoosie on Towers Street forum is complaining. Right, change of plan. Wayne, spend that money on Shanghai Legoland instead. All those in favour of closing Hex and Skyride for 2 years to teach them a lesson say aye".
 
AltonLover123 said:
A once a year visitor will have a bad day. Moan for a couple of days and forget all about it. Next year they’ll be back.

...

Yes, enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the overall park attendance but they have a far greater reach than we think.
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Nope sorry.

Tried to get my best mate and family to the Towers for quite a few years.
His good lady had lots of pleasant experiences there as a child...been once in recent years with work...will not be returning, specifically because...
1. The hotels are of a very poor standard for business conferences...standards have fallen badly.
2. The queues for rides in peak season make the day an endurance marathon, not a fun day out.
So the once a year visitors have not been back...for a whole decade.

So we haven't been, a group of four adults and two kids, stopping over for two nights, because the standards have slipped so much.
Other companies took our money.

And enthusiasts.
Small part of attendance, but the company do not give a damn in the end...just like Blackpool, there are a fresh bunch of new mugs every season, as theme parks are basically now a youth thing.
Don't worry about ripping them off, there will be a fresh bunch of mugs every year.
And there is.

Enthusiasts are ten a penny, and easily replaced grumblebums.
They want the big spending families who are stopping over, and the hotels seem pretty full at the moment.
 
Matt.GC said:
I agree that Alton Towers must be a pretty demoralising place to work at the moment, and I do genuinely feel for the people who have to work through this trying their best.

However this has absolutely nothing to do in any way shape or form with how the place is. It's a bin due to consciously made business decisions.

Can you imagine the board meeting?

"Right guys, let's agree on this £100m investment package for Alton Tow..... hang on a minute. Tracy has just text in and said a YouTuber is being mean about us and a Thoosie on Towers Street forum is complaining. Right, change of plan. Wayne, spend that money on Shanghai Legoland instead. All those in favour of closing Hex and Skyride for 2 years to teach them a lesson say aye".
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Tbh given how many YouTube influencers seem to have on major corporations if the anti-Disney sentiment is anything to go by then it's not far fetched if Merlin would do something stupid, this is the company that did waste stupid money on DBGT which need we say more about that?

Plus, have they fallen out with many coaster related YouTube channels recently which has led to many of them having a grudge to beat Towers with if the Hex reopening reaction was anything to go by from several sources?
 
rob666 said:
Nope sorry.

Tried to get my best mate and family to the Towers for quite a few years.
His good lady had lots of pleasant experiences there as a child...been once in recent years with work...will not be returning, specifically because...
1. The hotels are of a very poor standard for business conferences...standards have fallen badly.
2. The queues for rides in peak season make the day an endurance marathon, not a fun day out.
So the once a year visitors have not been back...for a whole decade.

So we haven't been, a group of four adults and two kids, stopping over for two nights, because the standards have slipped so much.
Other companies took our money.

And enthusiasts.
Small part of attendance, but the company do not give a damn in the end...just like Blackpool, there are a fresh bunch of new mugs every season, as theme parks are basically now a youth thing.
Don't worry about ripping them off, there will be a fresh bunch of mugs every year.
And there is.

Enthusiasts are ten a penny, and easily replaced grumblebums.
They want the big spending families who are stopping over, and the hotels seem pretty full at the moment.
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You raise a good point because I also struggle to find people to come with me.

At first I thought that it was just because I'm an insufferable ****** that nobody likes hanging around with (true of course). Then I considered if I was wearing the correct deodorant.

But it turns out that even very casual and occasional guests are aware of at least some of the issues. Very little to do with YouTubers and absolutely nothing to do with Thoosies.

"I don't think it's worth traveling all that way and standing in those queues when the park shuts at 4".

"We went last year and we didn't like it. It wasn't as good as I remember it. They seem to have closed a lot of rides and the food is horrible".

"They haven't opened a new ride since that wooden one have they? The Nemesis ride and the Haunted House have been there for years."

"Those hotels are very expensive for what you get".

"My mate said she went with the kids and the queues were awful".

"I'd prefer to save the money to go on holiday instead. Alton Towers isn't very good, it's nothing like you get abroad".

"Aren't all the queues really long at the moment?"

"My brother went in the spring and he said all the rides were broken down".

"We were going to go but my youngest isn't tall enough for the big rides and he's too old for those young children rides".

That's from customers that should be Alton's bread and butter, not a handful of apologist passholders and Thoosies.
 
Methinks it's also the between 0.9 and 1.2m market group where they may be too old for Cbeebies but can't easily go on much else.

There's a lot of families with children at 1m which are better catered for at Drayton Manor, Pleasure Beach, Chessington or Paultons Park.

Towers used to have (over the last decade or so):

Runaway Mine Train - Originally 0.9m - Height Requirement bumped up to 1.1m. Easily fixable with restraint change to newer Mack lapbars

Marauders Mayhem - Originally 0.9m - Height Requirement changed to 1.1m

Enterprise - 0.9m - ride removed

Blade - 1m - still there, not sure for how much longer

Twirling Toadstools - 1.2m, although modern Wave Swingers have double seats with 1m height requirement - ride removed

Gangsta Granny - 0.9m - ride operating

Raj Bouncy Bottom Burp - 0.9m - not really aimed for older ages and same system as Peter Rabbit. May not have much longer left

Royal Carousel - no height requirement - that's a carousel.

Hex - 0.9m - recently reopened - may be scary for younger guests

Curse at Alton Manor - 0.9m - may be scary for younger guests

Flume - 1m (possibly 1.2m) - ride removed and not directly replaced which likely had the biggest impact.

Congo River Rapids - used to be 0.9m - height requirement changed to 1.1m

Battle Galleons - 0.9m - ride operating

Flavios - 1.2m - I swear similar rides are 1m or 1.1m on the fair circuit. - I believe this is a pop up ride and may be removed in coming years.

Dungeons/Charlie - no height requirement - now behind a paywall

4D Cinema - closed

Retrosquad - varying height requirements between 1.2m and 1.4m - when it was more family thrill with Funk N Fly, Rollerdisco and Mixtape, it was fantastic however as Spinjam and Twistatron came in, it became more aimed at the thrillseekers.

1.2m guests can go on Wickerman, 13 and Spinball Whizzer

Nowadays, it wouldn't surprise me if people are put off by the reduced line up in non-coaster or Cbeebies rides and are going to the likes of Pleasure Beach, the southern parks or Drayton.
 
Reading through the above list makes me feel even sadder. Although the majority of those attractions just wouldn't cut the mustard nowadays, it reminds me of what we used to have. This large variety of attractions, accessible to all ages for the family to enjoy together. It reminds me of how special Alton Towers really used to be.

The pace of this decline really is quite staggering. To think that even 10 years ago, it was almost a completely different place to what it is now. And we didn't think it was too sharp back then.

I really worry for the long term future of AT. I just can't see a way out of this death spiral. Even the usual optimists haven't been able to pop in and inject some hope. I guess the indefensible cannot be defended.

Knowing the further pressures that are likely to home to a head in the next few years, it's even more depressing knowing that we still haven't even hit the bottom yet.

As it stands towards the end of the 2024 season, they'll be pulling the shutters down on a park that's already seen a massive step change in terms of what it actually is as a going concern. Long term decline seems to have received a booster rocket this year.

Perhaps the light can't be seen at the end of the tunnel because the end has been bricked up?
 
Are we are the point when most of us are doing the equivalent of hate watching Merlin/Towers in general just not out of enjoying but to have a pop for one thing or the other? Because this hobby is not really fun anymore if this is the future.
 
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