• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

I'm worried...

There are problems that are of merlins own making. My daughter requires RAP unfortunately we can not get pre booked rap tickets.

The last time we went, there was little bits that damaged the 'magic'
Food offering that were below par at theme park prices.
Bits of old theming colours showing though old paint.
General lowing of cleaning standards throughout the park, maybe less cleaning staff or lowest quote wins.
A general feeling that staff moral is low.
 
venny said:
So Merlin don’t provide the park a large enough budget to keep attractions open or maintain the Gardens, but that’s entirely the park’s responsibility, not Merlin’s…

We’ll agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
Make a business case, or ask, and you're more than likely to get the money, as it is for any industry.

I do not know you need money for something until you tell me. How you budget the money I give you is not my responsibility.
 
Easier said than done to make a business case.....

Dear Merlin, can we have some more money to upkeep the gardens. They will look really nice and visitors will appreciate them.

Will it bring any more revenue in ?

No.

Well you cant have any more money then.
 
I
shakey said:
Easier said than done to make a business case.....

Dear Merlin, can we have some more money to upkeep the gardens. They will look really nice and visitors will appreciate them.

Will it bring any more revenue in ?

No.

Well you cant have any more money then.
Click to expand...
We're not quite at Blackpool Pleasure Beach levels yet.
 
Merlin are renowned for providing generous budgets for park upkeep, it’s just none of the parks have asked for the money before…
 
Hid said:
The Gardens are maintained they just finished refurbing a bridge and did several projects on pagoda and conservatories
Click to expand...
If by maintained you mean kept to a certain standard...they haven't.
They have gotten worse, gotten a lot worse, without doubt, each decade for the last five decades.
Weeds, overgrown pathways, brambles, weed trees, weed shrubs, silting of waterways, failure to maintain garden drains and fountains, fencing off the bottom third of the gardens and walkways.
I could go on.
And do.
 
Last edited:
I think the issue we have here is Alton Towers is spending a lot of money to stand still. Whilst the park hasn't had a big new ride in seven years, they have spent a decent amount on keeping Hex, Nemesis and the Skyride going even if the average punter can't really tell. It also doesn't help that the park (outside Cbeebies Land) was downsized post Smiler so more pressure is being put on the remaining rides. Looking forward, I think the park is going to have more scrap or renew questions as Oblivion, Galactica and Rita get older and I'm not sure which way they will go on each ride.
 
Hid said:
The Gardens are maintained they just finished refurbing a bridge and did several projects on pagoda and conservatories
Click to expand...

I’m sorry but absolutely disagree

The gardens are in an appalling mess

They look nothing like they did 10 years ago

It’s Alton history and Staffordshire history that has been maintained for decades that now is a complete state. I’m sure they’re listed I’d consider reporting them to heritage England or SMDC if it would make a difference.

Despite everything else how they’ve mistreated the gardens at towers themselves is by far the worst act.

To chip on everything else id say the park has gone through arguably the perfect storm from around 2002. (I’d argue the last of the quality years)

Look at their subsequent “major” investments…

1999 - Tussauds sold to Charterhouse (subsequent record profits)
2002 - Air added (one of the most recent projects to see major budget cuts)
2003 - Duel added. Splash Landings opened.
2004 - Spinball Whizzer/Splash Karts added
2005 - DIC buys Tussauds
2005 - Rita added
2006 - CATCF/Driving school added
2007 - Blackstone buys Tussauds
2007 - Haunted Hollow/Dung Heap added
2007 - Alton 35 year leasehold sold to Prestbury group
2008 - Mutiny Bay/Heave Ho added
2009 - Sharkbait reef/CCL added
2010 - CVC acquires 28% of Merlin & Kirkbi (Lego) buys in at 36%
2010 - Thirteen added
2011 - Go go show
2012 - nemesis sub terra/Ice age 4d added
2013 - Merlin floats 30% of company on LSE
2013 - The smiler added
2014 - CBeebies added
2015 - CVC and Blackstone sell shares in Merlin
2015 - Octonauts added
2017 - Go jetters
2018 - Wickerman added
2019 - Kirkbi, Canada Pension Fund & Blackstone buy out the company taking it private again
2020 - Dungeon added
2021 - TWODW
2022 - Varney leaves
2022 - CBeebies attractions
2023 - TCAAM
2024 - O Neil leaves
2024 - Nemesis reborn

The 90s were a huge time for the park, and the park is about to go into a decade with ageing attraction hardware all on borrowed time. Alton lacks timeless hardware unaffected rides (shows, boat rides, cinemas, walkthroughs etc) to get it through times like this but as the timeline above shows. I can’t help but feel the parks are in no way to run to provide an “excellent theme park experience” in any way. Particularly since the early 00s where I’d argue the only 90s quality attraction installed in this time is Wickerman.

Otherwise we’ve seen no “new” greenfield lands, few greenfield attractions, many removed, many different types of attractions removed, lack of maintenance, worse food, worse hotel offering (rooms/ents), worse on park entertainment and general upkeep lacking across the board.

It would be simple for me to point out private equity, pension funds and land leasehold as drains on meaningful capex but make your own minds up.

Has the resort gotten better or worse since the Tussauds takeover? By any metric you care to use? Quality of attractions, queues, variety, food, maintenance, immersion, audio, towers and gardens, built environment, all year round offering, accommodation, events.

I’d argue in very, very few ways at all.

It’s not a difficult equation. Same as we’ve seen in many other parts of the UK economy.
 
Last edited:
Ash said:
The 90s were a huge time for the park, and the park is about to go into a decade with ageing attraction hardware all on borrowed time. Alton lacks timeless hardware unaffected rides (shows, boat rides, cinemas, walkthroughs etc) to get it through times like this but as the timeline above shows. I can’t help but feel the parks are in no way to run to provide an “excellent theme park experience” in any way. Particularly since the early 00s where I’d argue the only 90s quality attraction installed in this time is Wickerman
Click to expand...
I would disagree with this Charlie and the Chocolate Factory the Ride was a clever ride combining two rides in one.

The Smiler is a quality ride 14 inversions is something that only it holds

Curse at Alton Manor was also a great addition

Toxicator is great addition very fun.

The 90'a did have quality additions but so did the other years after
 
Hid said:
Curse at Alton Manor was also a great addition
Click to expand...

A ride i went on in 1993 is not an addition, it's a well done refresh of a peak 90s ride.

Hid said:
Toxicator is great addition very fun.
Click to expand...

A replacement of a peak 90s vibe.

Hid said:
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory the Ride was a clever ride combining two rides in one.
Click to expand...

Another 90's ride but re-themed.

Hid said:
The 90'a did have quality additions but so did the other years after
Click to expand...

Listing 90s rides as examples of post 90s quality additions is not a particularly compelling argument.

Personally i somewhat agree with the original point that WickerMan is the best addition in the discussed period (post 2000) although i think Thirteen was also very good. The list didn't include Air/Galactica in 2002, not sure if that was deliberate as i think that deserves inclusion too. And i'd also say Splash Landings was an excellent investment.
 
Hid said:
I would disagree with this Charlie and the Chocolate Factory the Ride was a clever ride combining two rides in one.

The Smiler is a quality ride 14 inversions is something that only it holds

Curse at Alton Manor was also a great addition

Toxicator is great addition very fun.

The 90'a did have quality additions but so did the other years after
Click to expand...

Although a partly agree with the point.

CATCF felt like something different but the execution was meh at best. The lifts and the soundtrack became the best bit and they were badly maintained. At least it felt like a “beginning/middle and end” and told the story in a reasonably cohesive way. But was it any better than the bare minimum? Not really.

Smiler is similar, great concept, executed terribly. Broken effects, badly maintained, stood for hours in an ungodly, flooded concrete prison mess. Entering an uninspired and unfinished station with little theming to speak of. Compare that to Paultons fit and finish to attractions, or even Draytons recent additions.

Curse I agree all round is great, but let’s see how long it lasts and it’s basically built on the 75% of the foundations already laid out. Merlin haven’t built a “new” similar type or quality of attraction in the 30 years since at AT.

Toxicator, see smiler…

Thirteen is ok, considering it’s meant to be Alton’s answer to expedition Everest it had an uninspired layout and again imo lacked the overall theming to deliver as seen in Forbidden Valley, X Sector, KC etc. Granted Rita hampers it but it could have been done so much better. See Danse Macbre.
 
The most telling thing to me is the amount of dead space within the actual ride areas of the park currently usually where rides used to sit. Like Blade, Enterprise, etc. Which of course then leads to the issues with lacking capacity across the board, or in our case having to sit around with child doing not a lot. Our fortunate part of RAP use there meaning its not often too long but that's a different issue entirely.

Walliams Land is usually a ghost town itself. Everyone stuck in an awful looking queue for Gangsta Granny. There's zero atmosphere or feeling in that area.

We spend most of our day at CBeebies Land or Nemesis. What will we do when the child has outgrown CBeebies but isn't quite 1.2m?

The offering from a family perspective is so bad now. CatCF wasn't particularly the best dark ride ever (cheaply budgeted presumably down to the lifts) but at least it was something to do for all family members. Not every kid can do Hex or Alty Mans.

With money being tighter than ever at home people are wise to the tricks and more aware of what they're spending on. Why spend £400 a night for Towers when you could travel to Efteling or Europa instead? Edible food, clean, decent opening hours and minimal downtime makes such a difference to the day out. Those are the issues well within control and seemingly little is done to resolve them.

The revolving door of management is telling.
 
Benzin said:
The revolving door of management is telling.
Click to expand...
Have to agree with this from the outside looking in- ie looking at Linked-in.

Observing what a lot of the high ups in Merlin recently have seen it as a stepping stone to another better role in another company and haven’t lasted very long. It will be interesting to see how long this Fiona Eastwood lasts.

Give Nick Varney his due he did build Merlin from the ground up and had long time personal investment in Towers and saw a lot of things through. Arguably, without his involvement we wouldn’t have had the legendary Nemesis - one of the things that brought a lot of us to this hobby.
Even to an extent people like Russell Barnes and Ian Crabbe spent a number of years at the park and seemed to be invested in the success of the place.

I do see hope in certain characters - John Burton is a great fella and is nice to see a familiar face from back in the days of Towers thoosies. He seems to be keen on elongating the life of many classics.

One of the problems I think (no expert by any means) is over expansion on behalf of Merlin meaning lack of investment in uptake and likely the people in management like ourselves crying out for basic uptake don’t have the funding to do what they need to do.

I remember having a great chat with one of the Towers managers in 2017- outside the Wickerman construction. He’d been there for years and we got chatting about the gardens and out favourite spots to sit in. He was a lovely guy and seemed to have a passion for the gardens. I’d like to think there’s people like him still in the company championing the maintaining the original Alton Towers.

The solution to save ‘the magic’? Merlin to strip back assets to focus more heavily on resort theme parks, rather than midways. Something which is happening presently but more radical change is needed. Less gimmicky IPs (cough cough Walliams world) which have no real long term shelf life. Or selling Towers to another operator! Who knows?!

To conclude, I don’t think Towers is in the paradise lost sort of state that some people make it out to be. I’ve been 13 (cue Tesla coil) times this year and never had a too terrible day- even when a ride started leaking poo! 💩 Some structural changes in Merlin are needed to restore the magic fully but how busy and popular it is is testament to its continuing success at entertaining punters.
 
To me, it feels like we're in a stage of stagnation and keeping up with a mediocre status quo.

Yes, the park is being invested in, but it's more essential maintenance and refreshing existing attractions which of course, is important. There's nothing truly new (as people have mentioned, Nemesis Reborn and Toxicator are to the general public just the same roller coaster with new paint and an old ride brought back), and what's there is slowly decaying with hasty plasters slapped over to keep them going (Galactica and Rita for example).

A huge gap in the line up for families has opened up with seemingly nothing coming or any intention to add for the demographic- you've got CBeebies for the little ones with Bluey next year, Walliams for those starting to outgrow that, and then nothing bar RMT, tacky (paid for) game stands and arcades, Spinball, the rapids, and Mutiny (arguably Wicker Man with its 1.2m limit) which is especially odd as other parks are going through a surge of family centric attractions that can be enjoyed by all such as Mecalodon, Luna, Wolf's Revenge, Penguin Trek etc. The park has very much become a case of if you're a family with children who've outgrown CBeebies but are still under 1.4 and/or scared of the large intimidating rides and dark themes, it's not worth spending the money on a day out there.

There's also the line up gaps of supporting attractions and experiences. The park desperately needs more flats and supporting attractions to help with guest flow, especially in areas like Dark Forest and X Sector where there is none. A few smaller (of course, 'smaller' in terms of not a multi million pound coaster) indoor ride investments in things such as Kraftverket, Kolumbusjolle etc would do wonders.
The 4D cinema has been gone for ages, Duel's rework into Curse has gone from a fun family friendly shooting ride to the more 'scary' haunted house which as good as it is, just isn't as fun as blasting monsters was in its hey day when you were up against friends to get the highest score.
It would be lovely to have permanent shows and entertainment in the park as well, and last year it felt like the right direction was being taken with the amount of year round roaming actors in Valley and Gloomy Wood especially but.. well. Cuts gotta cut!

Sorry this is turning into a bit of a frustrated rant that's probably strayed from the topic, but it really does feel like the place is stagnant and just being kept ticking along as it is, with an unwillingness to innovate and replace- leading to a showcase of preserved aging attractions that once pushed boundaries but are now the norm.
 
Electric Elly said:
Sorry this is turning into a bit of a frustrated rant that's probably strayed from the topic,
Click to expand...
A frustrated rant from someone who cares dearly about a place, which isn't living up to its absolute full potential, in a thread which is precisely for that purpose. I think you're probably alright!

The gaps in the lineup of attractions and entertainment are concerning points which do need addressing, ideally as early as four years ago.
Electric Elly said:
It would be lovely to have permanent shows and entertainment in the park as well, and last year it felt like the right direction was being taken with the amount of year round roaming actors in Valley and Gloomy Wood especially but.. well. Cuts gotta cut!
Click to expand...
I'm not ruling out the return of these things, and the baton being taken up from last season. I believe that the restructuring and the intention of outsourcing entertainment would have made this a little legally tricky for this season. I would like to be right, I'm prepared to be wrong.
 
Alton Towers is in a sorry state. The investment made into the Sky Ride and The Curse etc is only because the park allowed those attractions to get into that condition, be that due to a lack of budget from Merlin or not. I have had some good visits this year, but every visit I make I feel less inclined to come back.

I feel as though the park once known for innovation and not scared to try something new is being milked by Merlin and their private equity investors and the announcement of Chessington’s current VP does not feel me with much hope.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top