Alton Towers by Train?

[flyingguitar]

London is good in terms of connectivity, however the experience is quite lacking it can be quite hot and crowded (the birmingham cross city line is a pretty nice line with a nice set up however it suffers with conectivity)

oddly after doing some more research the UK is near the top for the most amount of people willing to give up their cars and use public transit with 34% saying definatly or probably, however I am not sure on it and could believe that a lot of the respondants were from london: https://www.statista.com/chart/3308...ents-who-would-give-up-owning-a-car-for-good/

although it dose prove what I am saying, countrys with poor public transit have lower numbers (america, germany, etc)

lets take switzerland as they have from my understanding a good comprehensive and modern public transit network (and are known as the best of the best)

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/half-of-swiss-people-drive-to-work/49161228

compared to 1990 much more people worked outside their municipality, but the numbers using cars have slightly fallen and using public transit have slightly increased, with trains increasing a lot and busses reducing a bit
only half drive to work (which is quite good)

public transit isn't only about lower costs, speed, etc it also needs to have suficent capacity to prevent corwding (something with london dosn't have as its systems are very old and not built for current capacity) this cowding can dramatically impact the usage of public transit especially after covid as can be seen here:https://www.ing.uc.cl/publicaciones...sport-mode-choice-the-case-of-santiago-chile/, also a quote from the abstract:

"Results also show that women and people younger than 35 years old have higher levels of crowding aversion. By analyzing the disutility generated by each alternative mode, it is determined that the bicycle is preferred over the car for trips of distances less than 4 km. In the same way, for trips of less than 3 km, the walk has a preference over public transport. Regarding the marginal rates of substitution between travel and walking time in public transport, for trips of 30 min with an overcrowding level of 6 pax/m2, women over 35 years are willing to trade 2 min of travel for 1 min of walking. When comparing the rates obtained in a prepandemic study, it is obtained that for trips of less than 9 min, people in the pandemic have more preferences for walking over spending time inside public transport."

this is also shown in these studies:

Public transport crowding valuation in a post-pandemic era - Transportation

It is important to understand how public transport passengers value on-board crowding since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic. The main contribution of this study is to derive the crowding valuation of public transport passengers in a post-pandemic era entirely based on observed, actual...

link.springer.com

Does Crowding Have a More Complicated Effect on Public Transport Users with Respect to Perceived Travel Time?

The issue of crowding in public transportation has long been of concern. Numerous studies have been conducted to address this issue. It has become increasingly common to convert crowding to something more tangible, such as cost and time, in recent years. As a result of converting crowding into...

www.worldtransitresearch.info

This study also suggests after the pandemic people are more elastic with reductions in service or reliability: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03611981241240754


all of what I am trying to say is if you give a good service people will come, but if it is crowded, low reliability, etc then people won't, yeah 50% of swiss drive cars, but that is quite small compared to most countries


another factor is that transit is stupid expensive hear (as I mentioned) due to a few factors such as a low capacity, private companies running everything, old infrastructure, etc

I think there are 3 main things that would put me off using public transport to get to Towers.

1. Crime and punishment is out of whack in this country and you can't control what nutters you're trapped in a metal tin with for hours. I feel safer in my own car.
2. I like to turn up quite early at Towers most of the time and I don't think I'd manage that on the rail network, for example, especially having to change trains etc. I can also leave exactly when I want in my car and don't have to look at a timetable and be on someone else's time.
3. The cost of rail travel is just stupid in this country and that won't change. In my lifetime it'll probably always be cheaper for me to go by car.

The only good thing about rail travel would be that I wouldn't have to concentrate on driving and could rest or read or whatever. I suppose if I didn't have to drive at either end I could have a few alcoholic beverages too if desired.

I would like to address these points:
1) You watch too much TV/social media, like really I have been going on trains / busses and in cities for years at this point and haven't once seen any nutters, or people trying to start stuff, but you also have to remember you are probably safe on a train as you are surrounded by other people and you have staff (such as the guard) to stop bad scenarios (although it gets harder on more crowded trains admittedly)
2) on a good public transit system you can leave whenever you want, look at London whilst not comfortable they have high service levels meaning you can leave whenever and get there within a couple of minuets
3) it is very expensive, I have no notes

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

London is good in terms of connectivity, however the experience is quite lacking it can be quite hot and crowded (the birmingham cross city line is a pretty nice line with a nice set up however it suffers with conectivity)

oddly after doing some more research the UK is near the top for the most amount of people willing to give up their cars and use public transit with 34% saying definatly or probably, however I am not sure on it and could believe that a lot of the respondants were from london: https://www.statista.com/chart/3308...ents-who-would-give-up-owning-a-car-for-good/

although it dose prove what I am saying, countrys with poor public transit have lower numbers (america, germany, etc)

lets take switzerland as they have from my understanding a good comprehensive and modern public transit network (and are known as the best of the best)

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society/half-of-swiss-people-drive-to-work/49161228

compared to 1990 much more people worked outside their municipality, but the numbers using cars have slightly fallen and using public transit have slightly increased, with trains increasing a lot and busses reducing a bit
only half drive to work (which is quite good)

public transit isn't only about lower costs, speed, etc it also needs to have suficent capacity to prevent corwding (something with london dosn't have as its systems are very old and not built for current capacity) this cowding can dramatically impact the usage of public transit especially after covid as can be seen here:https://www.ing.uc.cl/publicaciones...sport-mode-choice-the-case-of-santiago-chile/, also a quote from the abstract:

"Results also show that women and people younger than 35 years old have higher levels of crowding aversion. By analyzing the disutility generated by each alternative mode, it is determined that the bicycle is preferred over the car for trips of distances less than 4 km. In the same way, for trips of less than 3 km, the walk has a preference over public transport. Regarding the marginal rates of substitution between travel and walking time in public transport, for trips of 30 min with an overcrowding level of 6 pax/m2, women over 35 years are willing to trade 2 min of travel for 1 min of walking. When comparing the rates obtained in a prepandemic study, it is obtained that for trips of less than 9 min, people in the pandemic have more preferences for walking over spending time inside public transport."

this is also shown in these studies:

Public transport crowding valuation in a post-pandemic era - Transportation

It is important to understand how public transport passengers value on-board crowding since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic. The main contribution of this study is to derive the crowding valuation of public transport passengers in a post-pandemic era entirely based on observed, actual...

link.springer.com

Does Crowding Have a More Complicated Effect on Public Transport Users with Respect to Perceived Travel Time?

The issue of crowding in public transportation has long been of concern. Numerous studies have been conducted to address this issue. It has become increasingly common to convert crowding to something more tangible, such as cost and time, in recent years. As a result of converting crowding into...

www.worldtransitresearch.info

This study also suggests after the pandemic people are more elastic with reductions in service or reliability: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03611981241240754


all of what I am trying to say is if you give a good service people will come, but if it is crowded, low reliability, etc then people won't, yeah 50% of swiss drive cars, but that is quite small compared to most countries


another factor is that transit is stupid expensive hear (as I mentioned) due to a few factors such as a low capacity, private companies running everything, old infrastructure, etc


I would like to address these points:
1) You watch too much TV/social media, like really I have been going on trains / busses and in cities for years at this point and haven't once seen any nutters, or people trying to start stuff, but you also have to remember you are probably safe on a train as you are surrounded by other people and you have staff (such as the guard) to stop bad scenarios (although it gets harder on more crowded trains admittedly)
2) on a good public transit system you can leave whenever you want, look at London whilst not comfortable they have high service levels meaning you can leave whenever and get there within a couple of minuets
3) it is very expensive, I have no notes

Aside from staff, no one is commuting to Alton Towers. As I explained in my own post above, preferences for commuting relatively short distances to get to work, using public transport, will diverge with preferences to single trips to tourist destinations.

Foreign tourists are always more likely to use public transport to get to a destination, they often don't have much of a choice, we can remove them from the equation.

If you look at comparatively well connected theme parks on the continent, I would be interested to know the split in transport modes used to get there. Please keep in mind Alton Towers' relative remoteness from large cities, so you should probably not compare it against theme parks which can be visited using a metro service.

 

[rob666]

Lies, damn lies and statistics...

...although it dose prove what I am saying, countrys with poor public transit have lower numbers (america, germany, etc)...

It does not prove anything...hypotheticals..."probably"...

However many obscure statistics you throw up...90% of people who already own a car in this country would not want to give it up even if there was a good reliable convenient public transport service...sourced from your own resources above.

The last physical altercation I was involved in was on the local train back from Blackpool ...restraint of a violent drunk...arrested on the platform at Preston.
The last other violence I witnessed was on a train.
The last loud altercation I witnessed was on the local bus...after taking my lovely volvo in for the gearbox.
The local train service is very wild, and not safe in the evenings...trains run empty because of it.
It is common in most urban areas.
Never had a spot of bother in my own car.

 

[Bowser]

public transit is far better for the environment, peoples health, anyone with disabilities (I don't know why people think cars are so good for people with disabilities, cars are really restrictive, blind people, etc can't drive so need someone else, where as a bus anyone can ride, and it can be made accessible really easily)

As a parent of someone with disabilities I can categorically state public transport is not better for “anyone with disabilities”. Some perhaps, others not, so I think it best not to assume a massively diverse group all think and live the same way!

We like to take public transport where possible but typically the negatives far outweigh the positives. Even if AT had a train station where suggested I imagine it would still remain inaccessible to many disabled visitors.

 

[rob666]

Aren't generalisations great...
One final point.
Not all public transport is "far better" for the environment.
Air travel is public transport.
One of the easiest ways of helping the environment is to use less air travel.
Simple.

 

[flyingguitar]

Aren't generalisations great...
One final point.
Not all public transport is "far better" for the environment.
Air travel is public transport.
One of the easiest ways of helping the environment is to use less air travel.
Simple.

apart from domestic flights air travel is better though (domestic flights are quite inefficient for a few reasons including lower cruise altitudes and more of the flight spent taking off using more fuel, usually there are much more better alternatives with higher capacities for domestic flights (unless you are on an island) such as trains), compared to driving so if you are driving to Paris instead of flying it is worse for the enviroment, there are of course better options (such as the euro star) but it is better than a car:

Which form of transport has the smallest carbon footprint?

How can individuals reduce their emissions from transport?

ourworldindata.org

As a parent of someone with disabilities I can categorically state public transport is not better for “anyone with disabilities”. Some perhaps, others not, so I think it best not to assume a massively diverse group all think and live the same way!

We like to take public transport where possible but typically the negatives far outweigh the positives. Even if AT had a train station where suggested I imagine it would still remain inaccessible to many disabled visitors.

I meant to say it is more accessible than driving when done right (I do admit a lot of our transit is outdated with stuff such as non accessible stations, rude drivers, etc), although if you are counting planes, they are not as accessible

 

[Bowser]

I meant to say it is more accessible than driving when done right (I do admit a lot of our transit is outdated with stuff such as non accessible stations, rude drivers, etc), although if you are counting planes, they are not as accessible

Again that depends on your definition of accessible and the nature of your disability. For example, much of public transport can be overwhelming sensory stimulation, lacking in facilities, unreliable and extremely time consuming.

“Done right” for many is a non existent fantasy without the involvement of a car for at least some stage of a journey, even in countries with excellent public transport, let alone a particularly isolated rural theme park with no surrounding infrastructure.

 

[rob666]

apart from domestic flights air travel is better though ...

Jeez, again, no it isn't.

You simply aren't comparing like for like.
And...the graph you quote above...it clearly shows that all flights...long, short or domestic, are still many times less efficient than any other form of transport...bus coach train or electric car...and put four people and not one in the car, petrol or diesel, and it instantly is more efficient than any plane.
Not many theme park trips by train, bus or car are a thousand miles.
The easiest way for all of us to help the environment is to fly less, especially non essential journeys.
Again, nothing to do with the topic, but I felt this needed clarification, go by bus and train, or car, works out better than a plane every time in this country, and a full car round Europe is usually cheaper and kinder on the planet...planes are not energy efficient, all that power to keep those forty tons of metal in the air.

And forty percent of the train platforms in this country are completely inaccessible to wheelchair users...
Not very accessible after all.

Keep it up.

 

[flyingguitar]

Again that depends on your definition of accessible and the nature of your disability. For example, much of public transport can be overwhelming sensory stimulation, lacking in facilities, unreliable and extremely time consuming.

“Done right” for many is a non existent fantasy without the involvement of a car for at least some stage of a journey, even in countries with excellent public transport, let alone a particularly isolated rural theme park with no surrounding infrastructure.

whilst the "done right" can be a fantasy, there are far more things which could be done to push it towards that fantasy, and benefit everyone a simplified list for trains are:

investing in new rail lines *cough HS2 cough* to help replace over capacity or elevated loads on certain lines helping reduce crowding reducing the sensory simulation,
Investing in new rolling stock with more capacity / more open spaces (such as the new WMR rolling stock, it is far more open, less seats, but this has lead to it feeling far less crowded compared to their class 323's) reducing crowding also improving reliability,
Renewing signalling systems to improve reliability,
installing continuous block signalling (a replacement to fixed block, essentially it allows trains to drive more like cars, calculating the braking distance it would need and maintaining that distance to the train ahead, look up ETCS it is a modern system capable of it),
improving pay of workers to reduce the number of strikes,
actually make all stations wheelchair friendly, and add sensory spaces to stations to make it more appealing and less stressful.
electrify a lot more railways (a ton of our rail lines aren't electrified, hybrids will probably mean it doesn't change) as this can allow for quicker (acceleration) and more reliable trains increasing capacity.

these are fantasies to get, but even small changes can help but the require funding, so will never happen but the problem is a lot of our public transit is at or above capacity, WCML is literally the most busy intermodal rail line in Europe, but the replacement (HS2) has been hacked and slashed meaning it actually may decrease capacity by adding a bottle neck near crew!

And...the graph you quote above...it clearly shows that all flights...long, short or domestic, are still many times less efficient than any other form of transport...bus coach train or electric car...and put four people and not one in the car, petrol or diesel, and it instantly is more efficient than any plane.
Not many theme park trips by train, bus or car are a thousand miles.
The easiest way for all of us to help the environment is to fly less, especially non essential journeys.

I am aware it is worse than trains (as I said, there are alternatives such as trains), I was more trying to show how they can be better compared to driving, not that flying isn't bad
you use the example of 4 people in a car making it better, which it probably dose (the drop is probably quire dependant on the car though, as SUV's use a lot more fuel than small hatchbacks) how ever this is also true for airlines, which aircraft are they using (a320, a350, a380!) where are the winds (is it aiding or harming them), etc
but if you are a business man needing to go to Hamburg, or paris by your self flying would be better than driving (of course the Eurostar would be preferable, but that requires taking out a mortgage)

 

[rob666]

...and all a million miles off topic.

Alton Towers by train?
Three times the time, five different vehicles door to door, and three times the expense of petrol in the car for me personally.
And only a couple of hours on the park if the connections line up.
So probably not.

 

[Matt N]

The thing to remember about Alton Towers and the train is that most people will not be travelling solo, so the price will quickly skyrocket.

The train can be surprisingly cost-efficient relative to a car if you’re going as a solo traveller, but if you travel as a family like most Alton Towers guests will be, the train quickly spirals in price, whereas the car stays the same.

For the average family of four, the car will frequently work out considerably cheaper, even with railcards.

 

[flyingguitar]

In terms of getting a train straight to Alton station, It is heavily impractical, however I think better links should be made to existing rail stations, as getting to the point where you can drive is expensive and I know quite a few people who own no cars, and don't have a driving licence but would like to go to Alton an I think this could aid in attracting younger audiences

but also when universal comes, they could get some tourists who are here for theme parks, you may not think it is much, however if you look at Florida they get quite a few, and it has helped support Nasa, Busch gardens, etc. if AT position themselves correctly I think they could get some benefit from this
You may say it is quite expensive or too far, however if planned correctly they can get it for relatively cheap (compared to the cost of trains that is) with tickets such as this: https://www.thetrainline.com/trains/rail-passes/britrail-pass
allowing under 15's to ride free and unlimited rail / coach fairs (apart from in london) for cheap (compared to hiring a car) so if 2 parents have 2 under 15 children and plan to come for 8 days that is about £500, which could allow them to tour the UK, visit universal, etc for far less than a rental or the equivalent in rail fair

Edit: Posted wrong link :/

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

and it has helped support Nasa

I don't think that a government agency with an annual budget of $24.8 billion requires much help and support from theme park tourism.

 

[jon81uk]

If you're a gigantic American conglomerate with plans to build a shiny new theme park, however, the UK government will build you a dedicated train station, dedicated service roads and brand new motorway junctions. All at the expense of the British taxpayer!

The station at Wixams was planned to be built for the nearby housing development anyway, it will just be larger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wixams_railway_station

Alton Towers and JCB have caused many road improvements in the Uttoxeter area, yes what is being done to facilitate Universal is larger but that is also because it is a brand new attraction rather than something that grew in size over 10-30 years.

 

[rob666]

... and I know quite a few people who own no cars, and don't have a driving licence but would like to go to Alton an I think this could aid in attracting younger audiences...

They are the young families that go to the Towers every year in the summer/school holidays on coach trips from the nearest town.
Thousands of coaches.
Every year.

All without trains, yet on public transport.

 

[flyingguitar]

So CVR are now fundraising to take the CVR back to Moneystone/Oakamoor in light of the new holiday lodge site being built up the hill.

I’ve (very roughly) marked the route it’d take on the image below. The red circle on the left is Froghall which is CVR current base, the yellow circle is where this new holiday site is going to be located, the yellow line would be its route to the furthest right and the end of the yellow line would be the rough location of Moneystone station.

The red circle on the right is the start of Oakamoor village itself. Can’t see it going any further than this tbh, and that red circle on the right is a bunch of new build houses, I can imagine them kicking up a fuss about noise/plumes of black smoke. But we’ll see!

You can actually walk this route and go from Oakamoor itself to Froghall, but it’s either really boggy in the winter or you’re walking through overgrown bush/nettles during the summer.

A positive of this happening would hopefully them installing an actual walking route next to the track itself which would effectively link up Consall, Froghall, Oakamoor, Alton, Denstone etc all on one walking route.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It appears as through the initial deposit was funded, and they are now trying to fund the remaining £30,000:

From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/supportmcr/posts/10172343875260316/


It is a long way off from alton, however it is a step toward, and there are plenty more hurdles (such as the tunnel, a bridge which another buisness uses and more)

I have said going to Alton I don't think would be much beneficial to the average guest and would be horribly impractical due to the time required to travel down the line as it is a heritage line probably limited to less than 30mph however I think it would be really cool having a steam engine traveling to Alton. tbh a bus would be far better between a train station and alton.

 

[Blackrock]

It appears as through the initial deposit was funded, and they are now trying to fund the remaining £30,000:

From: https://www.facebook.com/groups/supportmcr/posts/10172343875260316/


It is a long way off from alton, however it is a step toward, and there are plenty more hurdles (such as the tunnel, a bridge which another buisness uses and more)

I have said going to Alton I don't think would be much beneficial to the average guest and would be horribly impractical due to the time required to travel down the line as it is a heritage line probably limited to less than 30mph however I think it would be really cool having a steam engine traveling to Alton. tbh a bus would be far better between a train station and alton.

Yeah I can’t see it going any further that Oakamoor/Moneystone personally, they’d be talking millions at that point and a lot of objections.

Hoping this comes through quickly as it’d nice to have the CVR on oakamoor itself, especially with the holiday park now being built.

But I’d also expect to see some objections from those who live in the new houses that have recently been built in oakamoor just by where this line will terminate. Can’t see this being easy either, but imo they shouldn’t have a right to object as it’s also been CVR objective to go back to where these houses were built, their solicitors when purchasing the properties should (if they did their job right) have made that known to them.

 

[Ash]

Yeah I can’t see it going any further that Oakamoor/Moneystone personally, they’d be talking millions at that point and a lot of objections.

Hoping this comes through quickly as it’d nice to have the CVR on oakamoor itself, especially with the holiday park now being built.

But I’d also expect to see some objections from those who live in the new houses that have recently been built in oakamoor just by where this line will terminate. Can’t see this being easy either, but imo they shouldn’t have a right to object as it’s also been CVR objective to go back to where these houses were built, their solicitors when purchasing the properties should (if they did their job right) have made that known to them.

As I’ve said previous, this track was only lifted to protect the Caldon branch and the trackbed is fully owned by the railway for usage as a railway so they can relay tracks to the tunnel entrance tomorrow should finances/logistics allow. There’s nothing they could do as it’s a working heritage railway.

Through the tunnel into Oakamoor proper and couple of miles to Alton is nothing grand scheme of things. The difficulty is getting the land (LGO may help this) and getting access over the bridge for the railway and vehicles.

Given they have Leek to sort and now this, it’s more than enough to keep them busy for another decade. But it’s quickly becoming a great tourism corridor. A park and ride at Leek (using the livestock market site) I think would be the best scenario.

I think we forget the purpose of that station, where it is, its design, its size, layout next to the gatehouse straight onto park property is to serve the park. First as a private estate and later as a visitor attraction. It was designed with that in mind, and likely for far more people than would use it now. Its potential for something useful and unique remains as large as it ever has.

But connecting Leek, Moneystone and Alton would be a massive coup.

 

[flyingguitar]

I doubt it would get much traffic as it would probably be quicker to take a bus to alton from leak as the track is probably limited to like 25mph.

I would like it as I said I think it would be really cool and a good tourist attraction (taking a steam train to alton) but as a means of transport it wouldn't likely make a good one.

There is the problem of bats in the tunnel, which blasting them woth 200psi+ of exhaust steam probably wouldn't be a good thing.


It probably won't cost millions, the old trackbed is owned by the council and they could donate it to the cvr as I think that is what happened with leak. The track could cost a lot but depends if the get it seccond hand again, then it is drainage which depends on the state of the line, but the most important factor imo is the tunnel as it probably can't be cheap to move the bats if it is possible

 

[Blackrock]

It would easily cost upwards of 1 million imo.

The tunnel apparently needs a lot of work, the planning permission side of this would also br expensive along with countering the no doubt multiple complaints from various individuals, land owners and public bodies.

They’d potentially need to purchase the old station house just outside the tunnel oakamoor end which is currently an air bnb. They’d need barriers installing there as well as red road crosses the old track bed path. This is a very busy road due to it being the road that provides access to The Ramblers Retreat/Dimmingsdale.

They’d need to build a new bridge across the Churnet which would be used for car access to oakamoor cricket club.

They’d need to buy sections of land off multiple private individuals who have been purchasing land such as the lake by oakamoor cricket club just so ‘it never changes’.

Alton station again would also be an issue and would no doubt need to be purchased from the the landmark trust who run it as an air bnb, the station platform itself is also owned separately by staff moorlands council if I remember right.

Honestly you’re talking millions and a whole load of legal hassle which for what is essentially a volunteer led organisation (soon to be charity) is a lot of work. Oakamoor/Moneystone sidings and their current ambition is probably as far as it’ll ever go.