The Public Transport Thread

[Lewis232]

Running a bespoke transport service is an operational nightmare for a business which isn't a transport company.

Alton Towers wouldn't run the buses, just as they don't run the buses they already operate for staff and Thorpe don't run their shuttle services, they would contract it out to a bus operator, such as D&G.

If you want to make a shuttle from Uttoxeter viable, you need high capacity between 09:00 and 11:00, and high capacity between 17:00 and 19:00. The six hours in between? You've got a fleet of buses and expensive drivers sitting in a car park doing absolutely nothing. It's incredibly expensive and inefficient.

No, you'd time the buses to leave shortly after trains arrive, which is xx:14 from Crewe / Stoke and xx:49 from Derby. The drivers and buses would be provided from a company that employs hundreds of drivers and maintains a large fleet of buses, so once the drivers have done their Towers runs they would then move on to other contracted services, such as scheduled council services.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Alton Towers wouldn't run the buses, just as they don't run the buses they already operate for staff and Thorpe don't run their shuttle services, they would contract it out to a bus operator, such as D&G.


No, you'd time the buses to leave shortly after trains arrive, which is xx:14 from Crewe / Stoke and xx:49 from Derby. The drivers and buses would be provided from a company that employs hundreds of drivers and maintains a large fleet of buses, so once the drivers have done their Towers runs they would then move on to other contracted services, such as scheduled council services.

The fluidity you want doesn't exist in the rural transport sector. A bus rota isn't a game of Tetris, you can't slot a vehicle into a gap in the schedule wherever it fits. The reality is ruled by geography and dead mileage.

Let's play this out.

A D&G bus leaves the depot in Stoke, drives to Uttoxeter, picks up guests and drops them at Alton Towers at 10:30 am. That bus and driver are now stuck in a car park in the middle of a forest in the Staffordshire Moorlands.

You suggest they "move on to other contracted services". Which ones?

In order for that bus to get back to a population centre where it could be useful (Stoke or Derby) takes 45 minutes of driving empty. That burns fuel, adds wear and tear and pays the driver's wage, all while generating zero revenue. By the time it gets back to Stoke, does a run or two, and then has to drive empty back to Alton Towers to be ready for the 5pm pickup, the dead mileage costs have obliterated any profit margin from the few train passengers it carried in the morning.

The reason why the Thorpe Park Express works, and the Alton Towers equivalent doesn't, is because Staines is an urban hub. The bus drops off at the park and is 15 minutes away from a dozen other potential high volume routes. Alton Towers is geographically isolated. Once a bus is there, it's committed.

If Merlin contracts a provider to run a service, the provider will charge Merlin for the entirety of the bus's day, because they can't effectively redeploy it elsewhere in the downtime without incurring massive inefficiency costs.

 

[Lewis232]

I used to work in scheduling for a major bus operator, including allocating vehicles and covering short-notice driver absences, so I’ve seen how these contracts function in practice.

The rural nature of Alton Towers does make operations trickier, but it doesn’t automatically mean a vehicle would sit idle all day or that the same bus must operate both peaks. Bus operators regularly move their fleet between contracts, use relief drivers, or rotate duties so that the morning and evening journeys aren’t tied to one vehicle or one shift. A bus doing a morning rail connection from Uttoxeter doesn’t necessarily have to be the same one doing the evening return; it could be swapped out or covered under a different duty.

There’s also a large pool of part-time, often semi-retired, drivers in the industry who specifically work peak-only shifts, which makes split-duty services like this more feasible than they might appear on paper. In my experience, school services were often staffed almost entirely by semi-retired drivers for exactly this reason.

 

[rob666]

From the hours suggested some posts up by the goose, with a bit of effort and imagination, such a route would be an ideal extra set of runs for school coaches...post school run both times round.
Direct coaches to, say, Stoke and Ashbourne, to link in with better services.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I used to work in scheduling for a major bus operator, including allocating vehicles and covering short-notice driver absences, so I’ve seen how these contracts function in practice.

The rural nature of Alton Towers does make operations trickier, but it doesn’t automatically mean a vehicle would sit idle all day or that the same bus must operate both peaks. Bus operators regularly move their fleet between contracts, use relief drivers, or rotate duties so that the morning and evening journeys aren’t tied to one vehicle or one shift. A bus doing a morning rail connection from Uttoxeter doesn’t necessarily have to be the same one doing the evening return; it could be swapped out or covered under a different duty.

There’s also a large pool of part-time, often semi-retired, drivers in the industry who specifically work peak-only shifts, which makes split-duty services like this more feasible than they might appear on paper. In my experience, school services were often staffed almost entirely by semi-retired drivers for exactly this reason.

I defer to your operational experience in the scheduling booth, but you're comparing apples with... well, government subsidised oranges.

Your comparison to school services highlights the economic flaw in the proposal though. School runs don't exist because they're commercially viable in isolation, but because they're a statutory requirement funded by the Local Education Authority. The operator has a guaranteed contract, paid for by the taxpayer, to move a fixed number of children at fixed times, 190 days a year.

A theme park shuttle is a purely commercial endeavour. There's no guaranteed state funding.

Even if you were to utilise split shifts, or rotate vehicles to other duties, you can't schedule your way out of the geography. The dead mileage remains the killer. It's at least 45 minutes for a bus back to a population centre, and 45 minutes from a population centre, regardless of whether it's a different bus in the morning or evening. It's still 90 minutes of fuel and driver time (plus wear and tear) that's not generating any revenue.

In a commercial contract, the operator doesn't absorb that cost. Instead, they bill it to the client, which in this case would be Merlin.

When D&G or First drafts the quote for Merlin, they include the cost of that dead mileage. Merlin looks at that figure, looks at the handful of people alighting at Uttoxeter railway station on a wet Tuesday and realises they would be subsidising each train passenger to the tune of probably about £20 per head.

Is it technically possible to schedule it? Absolutely.

Is it financially viable without a massive subsidy that Merlin is unwilling to provide? The history of cancelled bus routes suggests probably not.

 

[Steve74]

Even if a shuttle bus is technically and financially viable, you still have to get the interest of the public and make it worthwhile to take that rather than drive directly to the park. Ignoring train passengers for now, the next group of people who could use a shuttle bus would be those people willing to park in Stoke/Derby/Stafford etc and get the bus. A Park and Ride for Towers. Taking Phantasialand as an example, their shuttle bus is €5 (about £4.50) return. That journey is about 20-25 minutes. There's no way a shuttle bus to Towers (even with Towers subsidising it) would ever be that cheap in my opinion, and even at that price, for a party of 4 (ie a full family car), you are exceeding the current parking cost already! Not to mention you completely lose the convenience of parking onsite - ie your car is close by, you can leave your food in the car and return to it at lunchtime, plus, you know that at the end of a busy day you do not have to wait around for a bus and endure a further 45 minute journey to get back to your car (which you could probably do in a fraction of that time if you drove anyway!)

I think the only realistic way to get people out of their cars in meaningful numbers and onto public transport is to encourage people to go to Towers on pre-arranged coach day trips put on by local operators to where people live.

Here are a few that Google threw my way:

The Coach Company
Caledonian Travel
Acklams Travel
National Holidays
Loch Lomond Travel (and in the case of this last one, it includes staying over in a hotel in Derby)

Maybe Towers could look at encouraging more coach trips like these (The Coach Company is an official partner with Merlin apparently)

 

[BSwiss]

National Express partner with local operators to run regional routes. Even though there’s an extra layer taking a cut, could economies of scale make a NX and Merlin partnership across multiple parks more financially viable?

Maybe?

 

[Dave]

I really dislike Towers at the moment but the public transport issue is not theirs to deal with it’s a local government issue.

I do think if Merlin are savvy they could get some public transport concessions because of the money being thrown at Universal but it won’t make a big difference.

The problem towers has is as follows:

theoretical person in Leeds wants to go to Towers on public transport, let’s assume they live not to far from the city centre.

20min bus ride to Leeds station, 20min wait for train, 1hr 10 train journey to Derby. So we are already at 1hr 50min on that journey, then let’s assume a 20min wait for a bus and then a 50min bus ride to AT, that’s three hours, and then you have to do the whole thing in reverse. That’s SIX HOURS.

These people if they can’t drive are booking a coach trip already, if they can drive they are taking the car option every day of the week.

 

[owenstreet7]

Alton Towers wouldn't run the buses, just as they don't run the buses they already operate for staff and Thorpe don't run their shuttle services, they would contract it out to a bus operator, such as D&G.

My thinking would be instead of D&G running staff only buses that are separate from the guests once a day bus, couldn't they blend the service so guests and staff can ride together and this would improve the service slightly.

Thorpe Park's staff share the shuttle bus with the guests. This is considering that the bus times appear to be more flexible and dynamic when it comes to staff members whilst guests get the short end of the stick.

I really dislike Towers at the moment but the public transport issue is not theirs to deal with it’s a local government issue.

I do think if Merlin are savvy they could get some public transport concessions because of the money being thrown at Universal but it won’t make a big difference.

The problem towers has is as follows:

theoretical person in Leeds wants to go to Towers on public transport, let’s assume they live not to far from the city centre.

20min bus ride to Leeds station, 20min wait for train, 1hr 10 train journey to Derby. So we are already at 1hr 50min on that journey, then let’s assume a 20min wait for a bus and then a 50min bus ride to AT, that’s three hours, and then you have to do the whole thing in reverse. That’s SIX HOURS.

These people if they can’t drive are booking a coach trip already, if they can drive they are taking the car option every day of the week.

Whilst this is a fantastic point, I definitely think this is 100% both a Merlin and D&G problem and a contract that they both potentially have in place.

My recommendation would be that Merlin should terminate the contract with D&G and offer this to a bus operator who can run a Thorpe Park Express style service or a Park and Ride service. I'm sure this is something that could be popular, a revenue maker (if Merlin decide to apply the parking charge there additionally) and would also keep locals happy with the traffic situation.

I wouldn't say it is normal for someone to catch a Coach Trip with someone like National Express to a theme park unless it's an organised group trip. People shouldn't have to do that for a park the size of Alton Towers.

I'm honestly shocked Alton Towers has the worst public transport connections in Europe and I have travelled to quite a few parks in Europe.

 

[rob666]

...theoretical person in Leeds wants to go to Towers on public transport, let’s assume they live not to far from the city centre....

OK for the Leeds thoosie...but what about the many thousands of low income non car owners around the Stoke conurbation?

They deserve a local service to the local massive leisure facility, don't they?

This is a matter for Merlin, and they should act...access for all, surely?

Better for the environment, especially for locals.

Better optics for Merlin too...reduce congestion at peak times if you have one bus and not twenty cars.

 

[Dave]

OK for the Leeds thoosie...but what about the many thousands of low income non car owners around the Stoke conurbation?

They deserve a local service to the local massive leisure facility, don't they?

This is a matter for Merlin, and they should act...access for all, surely?

Better for the environment, especially for locals.

Better optics for Merlin too...reduce congestion at peak times if you have one bus and not twenty cars.

The park isn’t a charity, the local council should be better connecting the moorlands with local population centres.

They are expanding train stations and roads for universal after all.

 

[rob666]

This is a facility that was already in place, and has been for many years, with no local bypass or rail link.

Merlin, could take a more positive approach and support local public transport, through sponsorship and advertising.

And I'm well aware the park isn't a charity, that shows through its constant sharp business practices.

Merlin make zero effort to support local traffic in the community, this would be a clear indication that they are putting in the effort.

But they aren't.

 

[Dave]

But again name me a business that does all that you ask without being forced to do so in the planning rules.

They have in the past been made to fund road works, earlier reference was made to the £100,000 in the Smiler planning, the following year a lot of the surrounding roads got resurfaced, Towers paid the money but the council choose how to spend it. I’m sure if the council wanted to they could make a subsidised bus service part of a planning deal but they clearly don’t want to, and Merlin are not going to do it out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[owenstreet7]

But again name me a business that does all that you ask without being forced to do so in the planning rules.

They have in the past been made to fund road works, earlier reference was made to the £100,000 in the Smiler planning, the following year a lot of the surrounding roads got resurfaced, Towers paid the money but the council choose how to spend it. I’m sure if the council wanted to they could make a subsidised bus service part of a planning deal but they clearly don’t want to, and Merlin are not going to do it out of the goodness of their heart.

Acknowledge that the council could subsidise the route to offer more however doesn't fault lie heavily with D&G for only offering only the absolute bare minimum (possibly to tick boxes or satisfy contractual terms) and a completely unacceptable route for anyone who isn't local to the area.

It's not really about commercial viability of the route as it is clear there's a high demand. I have stated that a simple interim fix would be turning the staff buses public as there is no reason for them to be staff only. Trial it out to gauge demand.

Merlin definitely isn't blameless either but the raised parking prices, no active support on making something work and the premium hotel prices makes me wonder if it's potentially strategic. Even staying in Stoke on Trent is expensive for a night and that was off peak I looked at last year for a Premier Inn.

If I was running Towers, I would certainly strip that contract off D&G so they can't run services to Towers and offer it to an operator who can run regular services. I don't think it's acceptable for the current or the 2025 level of service to remain and honestly, it seems it may not change with D&G having the contract unless there is a big uproar which a big enough splash hasn't been made to impact yet.

 

[rob666]

But again name me a business that does all that you ask without being forced to do so in the planning rules...

Flamingoland?
Special express from Scarborough used to run, coastliner express(?),and they sponsored the coast run bus to and from Pickering as well.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

I wouldn't say it is normal for someone to catch a Coach Trip with someone like National Express to a theme park unless it's an organised group trip. People shouldn't have to do that for a park the size of Alton Towers.

Coach travel has been the lifeblood of UK theme parks for decades. Historically, the vast majority of non-driving visitors arrived by coach. It's entirely normal.

What isn't normal is expecting a high frequency, dedicated shuttle service to a location that's geographically isolated from any major population hub, without someone losing a fortune in the process.

It's not really about commercial viability of the route as it is clear there's a high demand.

It's entirely about commercial viability. That's literally the only thing it is about. D&G is a private business. If there was "high demand", they would be running the service and counting the profit. Bus companies don't cancel routes that make money to be spiteful. The fact that they have cancelled it is the definitive proof that the demand, even for the nominal service they did run, at the price point required to cover costs, doesn't exist.

If I was running Towers, I would certainly strip that contract off D&G so they can't run services to Towers and offer it to an operator who can run regular services.

You can't "strip a contract" that doesn't exist.

The X41 public service was not a contract awarded by Merlin. It was a commercial route registered by D&G with the Traffic Commissioner. In a deregulated bus market, anyone can register a route. First Bus could start one tomorrow. National Express could start one. You could buy a minibus and start one.

Merlin has absolutely no legal power to prevent D&G from running a bus to their entrance, nor do they have the power to force them to continue.

I have stated that a simple interim fix would be turning the staff buses public as there is no reason for them to be staff only.

There are a few critical reasons, but primarily operational security and capacity.

If you open the staff bus to the public, you lose control of the capacity. If the 08:00 bus from Hanley fills up with 40 excited teenagers, and 15 ride operators scheduled to open Forbidden Valley are left standing at the bus stop because there is no room, the theme park doesn't open.

Merlin pays for staff transport to guarantee their workforce arrives on time. Diluting that guarantee by mixing in the casual visitor is an operational risk no sane Operations Director would take.

It's not a conspiracy to sell hotel rooms. It's simply the cold, hard economics of transporting people to a forest in Staffordshire.

(potentially by making bus services a requirement of planning permission for new projects) to improve services, I'd hope local residents would support this as it would not only improve bus services for them but also reduce traffic (I can't think they like having a convoy of thousands of cars through their villages every day).

Planning obligations are typically used to fund capital infrastructure (a new bus stop, a turning circle, a junction improvement) or "pump priming" for a service for a limited period (like funding a bus route for 3 years).

Once that pot of developer money runs out, the service has to be commercially viable on its own. If it isn't (and rural bus services rarely are) the operator cuts it immediately. We saw this with the X52 and the 32A previously. The council can't force a private bus company to run a loss making route indefinitely, and the council certainly doesn't have the budget to subsidise it themselves given they are currently busy trying to work out how to fund adult social care and fill potholes.

 

[owenstreet7]

Coach travel has been the lifeblood of UK theme parks for decades. Historically, the vast majority of non-driving visitors arrived by coach. It's entirely normal.

To some degree yes, that is correct but with most parks being accessible in the UK by train or bus or a combination, the only park that most people would travel to by coach would be Alton Towers not counting school trips or organised trips.

What isn't normal is expecting a high frequency, dedicated shuttle service to a location that's geographically isolated from any major population hub, without someone losing a fortune in the process.

This is common place in Europe with Phantasialand, Europa Park, Parc Asterix being examples of such a service being offered.

Parque Warner Madrid is an example where there's less frequent shuttles but it is well connected to the centre of Madrid that it's still accessible.

The closest comparison to Alton Towers could be Efteling and that is a train for 1 hour from Amsterdam and about 50 minutes by local bus (still reasonably frequent) to the park from neighbouring towns. The distance I'd say is similar to Alton Towers from Stoke which is still doable.

Most other theme parks in Europe are connected by a bus, train or a combination of the two.

Alton Towers and the now closed Oakwood Theme Parks are both considered outliers in this situation.

It's entirely about commercial viability. That's literally the only thing it is about. D&G is a private business. If there was "high demand", they would be running the service and counting the profit. Bus companies don't cancel routes that make money to be spiteful. The fact that they have cancelled it is the definitive proof that the demand, even for the nominal service they did run, at the price point required to cover costs, doesn't exist.

You can't "strip a contract" that doesn't exist.

The X41 public service was not a contract awarded by Merlin. It was a commercial route registered by D&G with the Traffic Commissioner. In a deregulated bus market, anyone can register a route. First Bus could start one tomorrow. National Express could start one. You could buy a minibus and start one.

Merlin has absolutely no legal power to prevent D&G from running a bus to their entrance, nor do they have the power to force them to continue.

I would say this is the official reason but there's factors that contribute to why a route isn't commercially viable. A once a day service with a fixed return time isn't helping them do any favours.

If there was a couple of buses during the start of the day and the end of the day is adapted based on closing times, I would say the buses would be more popular. In addition, with the bus being at a set time in the morning, people who would use the bus would be relying on taxis anyway.

In the past, I am aware there were more buses which were very popular but have been cut in recent years so the evidence of viability was there.

I wonder how much Taxis and Ubers make from the Alton Towers route each day during the season? This could be a massive boost to the economy there.

I will mention that Oakwood closed due to lack of investment and declining visitor numbers, if Alton Towers wasn't a household name, I wouldn't be surprised if a similar fate happened to them.

You can't "strip a contract" that doesn't exist.

The X41 public service was not a contract awarded by Merlin. It was a commercial route registered by D&G with the Traffic Commissioner. In a deregulated bus market, anyone can register a route. First Bus could start one tomorrow. National Express could start one. You could buy a minibus and start one.

Merlin has absolutely no legal power to prevent D&G from running a bus to their entrance, nor do they have the power to force them to continue.

There are a few critical reasons, but primarily operational security and capacity.

If you open the staff bus to the public, you lose control of the capacity. If the 08:00 bus from Hanley fills up with 40 excited teenagers, and 15 ride operators scheduled to open Forbidden Valley are left standing at the bus stop because there is no room, the theme park doesn't open.

Merlin pays for staff transport to guarantee their workforce arrives on time. Diluting that guarantee by mixing in the casual visitor is an operational risk no sane Operations Director would take.

It's not a conspiracy to sell hotel rooms. It's simply the cold, hard economics of transporting people to a forest in Staffordshire.

Good point, appreciate you pointing out that the D&D 32A service is run differently to the Thorpe Park Express.

The Thorpe Park Express is sub-contracted to Sullivan Buses through Tussauds/Merlin. This has been in place for a very very long time.

This service is shared between the guests and staff which shows something like this can work.

This part was written with the idea that this may have been a sub-contracted service which seems like it's more of a commercial route than a sub-contracted service.

I still am of the idea that opening up the staff buses to paying guests would help with the issue and could make it more commercially viable.

I definitely think that the usage and commercial viability of the service is undermined by inadequate service for a theme park.

Once that pot of developer money runs out, the service has to be commercially viable on its own. If it isn't (and rural bus services rarely are) the operator cuts it immediately. We saw this with the X52 and the 32A previously. The council can't force a private bus company to run a loss making route indefinitely, and the council certainly doesn't have the budget to subsidise it themselves given they are currently busy trying to work out how to fund adult social care and fill potholes.

One point I could say on this, having a park and ride or a shuttle bus could actually help reduce the potholes in the area from the amount of cars getting to the park and would keep locals happier about the traffic.

Fantastic and constructive points as always

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

This is common place in Europe with Phantasialand, Europa Park, Parc Asterix being examples of such a service being offered.

Parque Warner Madrid is an example where there's less frequent shuttles but it is well connected to the centre of Madrid that it's still accessible.

The closest comparison to Alton Towers could be Efteling and that is a train for 1 hour from Amsterdam and about 50 minutes by local bus (still reasonably frequent) to the park from neighbouring towns. The distance I'd say is similar to Alton Towers from Stoke which is still doable.

Most other theme parks in Europe are connected by a bus, train or a combination of the two.

Alton Towers and the now closed Oakwood Theme Parks are both considered outliers in this situation.

You're completely ignoring the fundamental differences in geography, population density and state infrastructure investment between the UK and the continent. Alton Towers suffers acutely from the last mile problem (or rather, the last fifteen miles. problem), which most of your examples simply don't have.

Phantasialand

• Nearest Hub: Brühl train station is 3km away.
• Brühl is effectively a suburb of Cologne and Bonn. It's serviced by both commuter rail and trams. You can get from Cologne Central Station to the park gate in under 30 minutes. It sits in one of the most densely populated metropolitan regions in Europe. It's incomparable to the Staffordshire Moorlands.

Europa-Park

• Nearest Hub: Ringsheim / Europa-Park station is 4km away.
• The park is so economically significant that Deutsche Bahn built a dedicated Intercity Express stop for it on the main line between Freiburg and Basel. It sits on a major transnational artery. Alton Towers sits on a B road that gets blocked if a tractor turns left.

Parc Astérix

• Nearest Hub: Charles de Gaulle Airport is 15km away.
• The park runs a shuttle from one of the busiest international airports on the planet. It captures tourists already in the transport ecosystem.

Efteling

• Nearest Hub: Tilburg or 's-Hertogenbosch.
• Whilst geographically "similar" in distance from a hub as Alton is to Stoke, you're ignoring the fact that it is in the Netherlands. The Dutch government heavily subsidises public transport to a degree that is alien to the UK. Their bus network is designed as a public service, not a commercial profit centre.

Parque Warner Madrid

• Nearest Hub: Madrid / Pinto (approx 15 to 30 km away).
• The park sits just south of the Madrid metropolitan area, a region of over six million people. The roads serving the park are major, multi-lane motorways. The Spanish government originally built a dedicated commuter train line directly to the park gates. Although the line later closed, the park remains fully integrated into the Madrid Regional Transport Consortium's network.

Disneyland Paris

• Nearest Hub: Marne-la-Vallée / Chessy.
• The French government extended the commuter network and built a dedicated high speed rail hub at the park gates.

PortAventura World

• Nearest Hub: Salou / Tarragona (approx 2 to 10 km away).
• The park has its own dedicated train station on the regional rail network connecting directly to central Barcelona. It also sits minutes away from both the motorway and Reus Airport. The park is embedded in one of the most heavily developed tourist coastlines in Europe.

Gardaland

• Nearest Hub: Peschiera del Garda (approx 2.5 km away).
• Peschiera del Garda is a major, high frequency station on a primary railway line. The park is immediately adjacent to the motorway and sits right on Lake Garda. It draws from a massive pool of tourists already moving through a highly developed, transnational transport corridor.

Alton Towers

• Nearest Hub: Stoke-on-Trent / Uttoxeter.
• To get from Stoke station to the park requires navigating 15 - 20 miles of rural, single carriageway roads that are often gridlocked. There is no dedicated infrastructure. There is no major population density along the route to pick up intermediate fares.

In the past, I am aware there were more buses which were very popular but have been cut in recent years so the evidence of viability was there.

If they were cut, the evidence of viability wasn't there. Commercial operators don't cut profitable routes. If the buses were "very popular" (full of paying customers), D&G would still be running them.

The Thorpe Park Express is sub-contracted to Sullivan Buses through Tussauds/Merlin. This has been in place for a very very long time.

This service is shared between the guests and staff which shows something like this can work.

This part was written with the idea that this may have been a sub-contracted service which seems like it's more of a commercial route than a sub-contracted service.

I still am of the idea that opening up the staff buses to paying guests would help with the issue and could make it more commercially viable.

I definitely think that the usage and commercial viability of the service is undermined by inadequate service for a theme park.

The 950 is a high frequency shuttle connecting a major urban rail hub (Staines) to a park 15 minutes away. It can do multiple loops an hour. A Stoke - Alton bus can do one, maybe two loops in a morning peak. The economics are entirely different.

Just to hammer in the economics against a dedicated shuttle bus, let's play a quick round of Bus Tycoon.

Assuming a double decker bus with roughly 75 seats as a baseline.

Thorpe Park:

• Route: Staines Station -> Thorpe Park.
• Distance: 3.5 miles.
• Time: roughly 12-15 minutes.
• Efficiency: In the critical 9:00am - 11:00am arrival window, a single bus can perform 4 or 5 round trips.
• Capacity: 1 bus driver can transport approx. 350 - 400 paying customers into the park during the morning peak.
• Result: High revenue density. Profitable.

Alton Towers:

• Route: Stoke-on-Trent Station - Alton Towers.
• Distance: ~16 miles (via Cheadle / Oakamoor).
• Time: 45-60 minutes (traffic dependent).
• Efficiency: In the critical 9:00am - 11:00am arrival window, a single bus can perform 1 round trip. When it gets back to Stoke for a second run, it's nearly midday and nobody wants to go to a theme park that closes at 4pm.
• Capacity: 1 bus driver transports 75 paying customers (max) into the park during the morning peak.
• Result: Low revenue density.

A commercial bus costs roughly £350 - £500 a day to put on the road (driver wages for a full shift, diesel, insurance, maintenance, depot costs).

If you charge £10 return (which is optimistic), in order to break even, you need 35 - 50 people on that specific bus, every single day.

On a sunny Saturday in Scarefest? Achievable.

On a rainy Tuesday in May when there are only 3 people getting off the train at Stoke? You've taken £30 in revenue against £400 in costs. You've lost £370. Multiply that loss across a 180 day season, and you can see why it's not worth bothering with.

The survival of the slow, meandering 32A proves that the only way to get a bus to Alton Towers is if the taxpayer helps pay for it to stop at the village hall and every other lamp post in Staffordshire, where a pensioner might want to get off to buy a pint of milk on the way. It exists primarily because Staffordshire County Council subsidises it (or deems it a necessary lifeline route) to ensure Mrs Miggins can get to the doctors in Cheadle. The fact that it terminates at Alton Towers is largely incidental to its primary function of connecting rural villages.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

Double post. Whip me.

All of this is a perfect illustration of why I have been so vehemently critical of the government's approach to the Universal UK project in Bedford, and surprised by many enthusiasts opposition to similar measures at other parks.

Alton Towers, a major domestic employer and tourism magnet, has to rely on the whims of the "free market" for its connectivity. If a bus route doesn't turn a profit immediately, it's cut. If the roads are inadequate, tough luck. The park ought to pay for the infrastructure improvements, they charge enough for parking after all, goes the argument.

Yet, for a multi-billion dollar American conglomerate building a park which doesn't even exist yet, the UK government has committed a support package of approximately £500 million in infrastructure investment specifically to facilitate Universal's arrival. Plus an additional £80 million in "Exceptional Financial Support" handed directly to Bedford Borough Council to help them manage the "economic impacts".

Where's Staffordshire County Council's £80 million to manage the impact of Alton Towers? Where's the £200 million relief road from Uttoxeter to Cheadle that would make a bus service viable? Where's the rail investment to reconnect the Moorlands?

It's a grotesque distortion of the market. We allow our existing, established UK leisure industry to strangle on inadequate infrastructure whilst handing half a billion pounds of taxpayer money to their biggest global competitor to ensure they don't face the same problems.

If the government invested £270 million in a rail link for Alton Towers, we wouldn't be having a debate about whether D&G can afford the diesel for a single bus. It's perplexing that the enthusiast community cheers on state aid for Universal, but absolutely insist that it's entirely (and only) Merlin's responsibility to finance the improvements to the crumbling B roads which connect their park.

 

[Steve74]

Double post. Whip me.

All of this is a perfect illustration of why I have been so vehemently critical of the government's approach to the Universal UK project in Bedford, and surprised by many enthusiasts opposition to similar measures at other parks.

Alton Towers, a major domestic employer and tourism magnet, has to rely on the whims of the "free market" for its connectivity. If a bus route doesn't turn a profit immediately, it's cut. If the roads are inadequate, tough luck. The park ought to pay for the infrastructure improvements, they charge enough for parking after all, goes the argument.

Yet, for a multi-billion dollar American conglomerate building a park which doesn't even exist yet, the UK government has committed a support package of approximately £500 million in infrastructure investment specifically to facilitate Universal's arrival. Plus an additional £80 million in "Exceptional Financial Support" handed directly to Bedford Borough Council to help them manage the "economic impacts".

Where's Staffordshire County Council's £80 million to manage the impact of Alton Towers? Where's the £200 million relief road from Uttoxeter to Cheadle that would make a bus service viable? Where's the rail investment to reconnect the Moorlands?

It's a grotesque distortion of the market. We allow our existing, established UK leisure industry to strangle on inadequate infrastructure whilst handing half a billion pounds of taxpayer money to their biggest global competitor to ensure they don't face the same problems.

If the government invested £270 million in a rail link for Alton Towers, we wouldn't be having a debate about whether D&G can afford the diesel for a single bus. It's perplexing that the enthusiast community cheers on state aid for Universal, but absolutely insist that it's entirely (and only) Merlin's responsibility to finance the improvements to the crumbling B roads which connect their park.

Very well said. Have to admit I didn't know the amount of money that the Government has promised for the Universal development and frankly when put like that, that's a horrific amount to invest while ignoring other areas of the country. I'm surprised Merlin and other operators didn't kick up a fuss about it. Clearly it was offered as a major incentive to get Universal to plonk a park in the UK. Without derailing this topic too much, out of interest and a genuine question - was it a similar situation with the French Government and Disneyland Paris where they pumped millions into their arrival but nothing into the existing infrastructure around French tourist attractions?