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Paultons Park: General Discussion

Dave said:
Why would you compare this to something done in 2010?

I would be more inclined to compare this to the forbidden valley refresh. And although you could argue the set-pieces maybe do compare (I think with the exception of the gun thing all of the stuff put into valley and the entrance portal was really well done), Paultons is far better at the attention to detail side of things.

Curious that all the vloggers saying there was clearly going to be a dark ride section to drakon are now curiously silent on the fact you can see it’s just a 180 degree turn out of the station and straight into the lift hill.
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Because there was a mix of existing attractions and buildings to be rethemed along with new attractions and buildings added and a new theme applied overall. There’s a decent comparison there.

Compare the Rita retheme/overlay to Cobra. Or what they did with the land layout. With Thirteen being added. Or the dead space by the Rita turnaround. Or the re-use of the Ug Land buildings.

But as you rightly say the execution is far better.

Landscaping, lighting, fencing, theming set pieces, layout, food offering, materials used, props, mix of attractions, seating, playgrounds, architectural style it’s all just better.

Merlin are installing two helicopters, shipping containers and the nemesis queue line “gun”. It’s broadly speaking pre constructed items. Cheaper and predictable. The custom items are really lacking in quality. Meanwhile Paultons attraction signage, towers, statues, character props, set pieces (the wheel) yes have been shipped in from overseas but together look fantastic.

There are levels to this game and Merlin remain doing the bare minimum or less.
 
Ash said:
Because there was a mix of existing attractions and buildings to be rethemed along with new attractions and buildings added and a new theme applied overall. There’s a decent comparison there.

Compare the Rita retheme/overlay to Cobra. Or what they did with the land layout. With Thirteen being added. Or the dead space by the Rita turnaround. Or the re-use of the Ug Land buildings.

But as you rightly say the execution is far better.

Landscaping, lighting, fencing, theming set pieces, layout, food offering, materials used, props, mix of attractions, seating, playgrounds, architectural style it’s all just better.

Merlin are installing two helicopters, shipping containers and the nemesis queue line “gun”. It’s broadly speaking pre constructed items. Cheaper and predictable. The custom items are really lacking in quality. Meanwhile Paultons attraction signage, towers, statues, character props, set pieces (the wheel) yes have been shipped in from overseas but together look fantastic.

There are levels to this game and Merlin remain doing the bare minimum or less.
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Hmmm not sure I full agree with much of that, as Valley had the same mix you used to justify using Dark Forest instead.

Nemesis refurb had the new entrance sign for the ride, two large well done theming elements, new shop theming, arcade building, some scattered minor theming and the entrance portal. When you add in Toxicator you have a pretty well themed flat ride as well.

What Paultons do better are the little touches, it’s the choice of foliage, turf, path surfaces, rock work, lighting, painting etc. it’s the little touches that take something from being surface impressive to being interesting.
 
Ash said:
Because there was a mix of existing attractions and buildings to be rethemed along with new attractions and buildings added and a new theme applied overall. There’s a decent comparison there.

Compare the Rita retheme/overlay to Cobra. Or what they did with the land layout. With Thirteen being added. Or the dead space by the Rita turnaround. Or the re-use of the Ug Land buildings.

But as you rightly say the execution is far better.

Landscaping, lighting, fencing, theming set pieces, layout, food offering, materials used, props, mix of attractions, seating, playgrounds, architectural style it’s all just better.

Merlin are installing two helicopters, shipping containers and the nemesis queue line “gun”. It’s broadly speaking pre constructed items. Cheaper and predictable. The custom items are really lacking in quality. Meanwhile Paultons attraction signage, towers, statues, character props, set pieces (the wheel) yes have been shipped in from overseas but together look fantastic.

There are levels to this game and Merlin remain doing the bare minimum or less.
Click to expand...
I don’t think you’re being entirely fair on Merlin here.

For starters, Dark Forest was built in 2010, so some years ago. Merlin’s own output has changed quite considerably since then. Thirteen was also a somewhat more elaborate headline ride than Drakon; Thirteen, for all its flaws, was a world’s first coaster introducing meaningfully new technology, whereas Drakon is a relatively basic Euro-Fighter that doesn’t really do much meaningfully differently to the other ones.

Also, I would argue that you do Merlin’s effort with Forbidden Valley down by excluding certain details. You don’t mention the eye and the new Nemesis station, which are probably two of the best parts of the new area (in my view, anyway), and one thing I would personally make an argument for Forbidden Valley doing better than anything Paultons has built thus far (I’ll reserve judgement on Valgard, as it hasn’t been completed yet) is dynamism/theatre.

For their flaws, I think Merlin frequently integrate a good degree of pizzazz and theatrical flair into their rides with things like effects, dispatch sequences, sounds, moving things etc. Taking Nemesis as an example, you have the grand feature of the eye with the moving tentacles, the smoke, the effects that make noise and emit lights and smoke, the dispatch sequence and such. On Wicker Man, you have the massive statue with fire and mist, you have the dispatch sequence, you have the pre-show and such. Even Hyperia, for all the flack the theming of that ride has received, has a dispatch sequence with lights and smoke. As beautifully themed as Paultons’ rides and areas are, I think they lack that degree of theatre.

That’s not to do Paultons down at all, and I admit that their areas are definitely more rounded with better focus on the finer details, but I think they haven’t yet done anything with the degree of theatre and dynamism that some of Merlin’s best work has contained.

Of course, however, full judgement on Valgard is reserved until it opens.
 
Dave said:
Hmmm not sure I full agree with much of that, as Valley had the same mix you used to justify using Dark Forest instead.

Nemesis refurb had the new entrance sign for the ride, two large well done theming elements, new shop theming, arcade building, some scattered minor theming and the entrance portal. When you add in Toxicator you have a pretty well themed flat ride as well.

What Paultons do better are the little touches, it’s the choice of foliage, turf, path surfaces, rock work, lighting, painting etc. it’s the little touches that take something from being surface impressive to being interesting.
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That’s fine you don’t have to agree, I didn’t originally set out to make the FV comparison but as we’re here…

My original point was a comparison to Dark Forest and the type of re-do that was undertaken.

I agree the FV loose re-theme was better executed than Dark Forest but I expect that was because they were already dealing with a lot that was already there for them.

Will the “overall” Valgaurd be better than FV, especially with the 2027 addition. I think so based on what I can see so far but that’s just my opinion, and with all the caveats that come with it. But obviously people’s idea of “good” and “quality” is often difficult to compare. Evidently.
 
The Valgard overhaul of pre-existing structures, props, plantings, and new buildings are spectacular, with the Drakon thrill ride a bit dated but functional (but people forget how pretty big the footprint area for the 2027 ride is, running the full length from Lost Kingdom to the Edge).

Paultons Park may not be gearing towards having a thrill ride equivalent of Hyperia this next decade or so, and Drakon may be forgettable to enthusiasts who go on thrill rides worldwide, but Paultons Park feels the most cohesive and immersive on average to Merlin's parks nowadays (with Thorpe Park used as comparison).
 
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Ash said:
That’s fine you don’t have to agree, I didn’t originally set out to make the FV comparison but as we’re here…

My original point was a comparison to Dark Forest and the type of re-do that was undertaken.

I agree the FV loose re-theme was better executed than Dark Forest but I expect that was because they were already dealing with a lot that was already there for them.

Will the “overall” Valgaurd be better than FV, especially with the 2027 addition. I think so based on what I can see so far but that’s just my opinion, and with all the caveats that come with it. But obviously people’s idea of “good” and “quality” is often difficult to compare. Evidently.
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Yes I know you didn’t want to discuss valley but my point was you can’t compare something built in 2010 at Towers with something being built in Paultons in 2026. Valley is a more contemporaneous comparison.

I think Valgard will ultimately be a better thematic experience even if the theme is a bit generic, the food hall alone pushes it up there for me. But I don’t think we are talking dramatically different. I know Valgard will be better looked after.

I’m sure the vloggers and geeks will say Drakon is the best coaster in the UK for a few months and then secretly go back to preferring Hyperia and Nemesis.
 
Drakon and Raven still won't be the best roller coasters but the "land" they inhabit will be more interesting, consistent, and complete than modern Merlin and comparable to their Tussauds legacy parks in their prime (in what they were trying to aim for back in the very late 1980s, 1990s, and first half of the 2000s).
 
Bowser said:
Generally the best theming built in the UK is from the 80s and 90s let alone 2010… basically the peak John Wardley creations.

Makes it all the more refreshing to have Paultons finally pick up the mantle.
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I think Merlin almost got going again after Wickerman (depend a bit too much on a big centrepiece) but still. Then they decided to cut the budgets again.

But overall yes you are right.
 
Bowser said:
Generally the best theming built in the UK is from the 80s and 90s let alone 2010… basically the peak John Wardley creations.

Makes it all the more refreshing to have Paultons finally pick up the mantle.
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Who is Paultons' equivalent of John Wardley who expanded and evolved Paultons Park since the turn of the 2010s?
 
TedShatner10 said:
Who is Paultons' equivalent of John Wardley who expanded and evolved Paultons Park since the turn of the 2010s?
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I don't think there's an equivalent as the situations are somewhat different but my knowledge of Paulton's development is limited.

John Wardley was brought in by Tussauds based on his existing skills in building animatronics and designing rides to revamp several of their parks and continue on designing rides for many years.

Paulton's are a family owned park whose projects are designed by a combination of their own in-house team and outsourcing to other companies.

I don't think there's one individual spearheading the creative decisions to the degree John Wardley did (their rides are typically off the shelf numbers) but the current face of the company in that regards is the heir apparent Lawrence Mancey so it's probably fair to at least partially attribute the development to him.

There was a great interview in this thread once about the history of Peppa Pig World with i believe Lawrence Mancey's father but alas i can't recall when it was posted.

It might be this one but i no longer have a subscription to check...

www.thetimes.com

Fun for all the family who run theme park with Peppa Pig World

James Mancey was walking his dog when he got the call from anti-terrorism police. A high-profile guest planned to visit his family’s Hampshire theme park — whi
www.thetimes.com www.thetimes.com
 
Dave said:
Curious that all the vloggers saying there was clearly going to be a dark ride section to drakon are now curiously silent on the fact you can see it’s just a 180 degree turn out of the station and straight into the lift hill.
Click to expand...

Lawrence did say in the latest construction vlog that they have plans for that section, so we'll just have to wait and see. 👀
 
Lewis232 said:
The Dutch company Leisure Expert Group have lead on all their theming designs since Tornado Springs

www.leisureexpertgroup.com

Theme Park, Festival & Experience Design Portfolio | LEG

Explore our experience design portfolio. From theme park master planning and concept creation to festival design and immersive visitor experiences.
www.leisureexpertgroup.com www.leisureexpertgroup.com

Edit @Bowser think it's this one
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Genuinely, I don’t understand why MMM exists other than a few key creatives to approve things. It’s a shame but they just aren’t up to standard.

It’s clear there are organisations doing far better work. Seemingly with less money.
 
Ash said:
Genuinely, I don’t understand why MMM exists other than a few key creatives to approve things. It’s a shame but they just aren’t up to standard.

It’s clear there are organisations doing far better work. Seemingly with less money.
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Outside of the waxworks I think it was mostly a tax and accounting thing. But it doesn’t exist anymore except high level creative direction and wax works so it’s not really a factor now.
 
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