Fastrack - more being sold?

In the disturbing position of finding myself agreeing with Meat Pie, I passionately hate FarceTrack and have never in my life used it.

The problem as I see it is not that Alton are selling a premium version of their standard product, it is the way they do it with FT. The use of FT by those able who purchase it causes those who can not/will not buy it significant damage to how much they can get out of their day, and that in my eyes is very wrong. It is that direct detriment to those without that I find so abhorrent.

For example, if someone buys a premium cinema ticket it does not mean they get to sit in front of me so I can't see the screen, they just get a comfier seat. That is fine as it does not effect me sitting on my beanbag.

The park rules state queue jumping is not allowed, unless you pay for it with FT. Take that into the outside world and it is called a bribe. If wealth is to be a defining factor in how long we have to queue how about using other personal attributes, such as strength? Take away the queue line, have a scrum. The strongest will get to the front pushing the weaker out of the way. Sounds wrong doesn't it? But it is the same thing in my eyes.

If they want to sell a premium ticket, sell one with ERT or similar. Something that does not have a negative effect on everyone else there for the standard day.

I so wish Alton, and all Merlin attractions, would ditch the marketing and pricing trickery which they have become so reliant on. Work out how much they need off each guest to turn a profit and charge it; no parking charge, no fast track, no bogofs. Just a price and an entry ticket. As it stands at the moment people may be fooled by it all to get there in the first place, but are not fooled by the time they leave feeling ripped off and less likely to return.

Fastrack - more being sold?

Using your example of cinema for instance though, If there were no premium seats, there would be more standard seats, so yeah, I think it is the same principle of FT.

You have a throughput for a ride, FT takes away some of that. You have a number of seats in the cinema, premium seats take away some of that. Everyone still gets to watch the movie / ride the ride.
The only difference is instead of the cinema having to turn people away as there are no standard seats left, you have to que a bit longer.
One simple solution. Don't visit on peak days.

I don't like FT, but it is a big source of income which otherwise would not be there, inevitably resulting in more cuts.





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I can see both sides to the argument here but I believe the only way for fast track to be fair is one of the following,

The ride breaks down whilst you are on it or in the station at the time and it wont be fixed in a reasonable time, this has happened to me at DLP and I think this is fair.

You enter the queue line at the same time as everyone else but get a timed ticket, so you can do what you wish but return to your point in the queue when if timed correctly you were due to enter the ride anyway.
This then would not hinder the speed of the queue as it will flow as if your standing in it, but your not if you get my meaning.
Whether this should be a free service like a Disney I'm not so sure, but even if a premium service it would not hinder other paying guests at all.

I'm in a fortunate possition that I could afford to pay for fast track if I wanted to but I choose not to as I can see the effect it has on other guests, but if it was like above then I wouldn't feel guilty using it.
I think I just sort of agreed with meat pie there, what is this forum coming too. ;D

I think the key issue is timings. BigT, you've hit the nail on the head with how well Fastrack can work by citing the free Fastpass system at DLP. It works how Fastrack should work, as a 'virtual' queue system whereby you collect a ticket for a set time and 'virtually' wait in line until that time leaving you free to do what you want, knowing that you will be at the front of the queue when you come back.

If Fastrack could be offered in a similar way (albeit still charged) then it would work so much better and would not effect queue times so poorly. I'm not saying that DLP always get it right... Crush's coaster is a fantastic example of a Fastpass fail (but that was only a trial) however Towers should look to them for inspiration. Go back towards the old, free version of Fastrack but keep it a paid service. Bring back the old-style machines in place of all the lockers if needs be - but make them only accessible via a pre-paid token or pre-paid ticket from Sales & Info...

They just need to do something stricter and more rigorous with timings.

Re: Fastrack - more being sold?

smudge said:

Using your example of cinema for instance though, If there were no premium seats, there would be more standard seats, so yeah, I think it is the same principle of FT.

You have a throughput for a ride, FT takes away some of that. You have a number of seats in the cinema, premium seats take away some of that. Everyone still gets to watch the movie / ride the ride.
The only difference is instead of the cinema having to turn people away as there are no standard seats left, you have to que a bit longer.
One simple solution. Don't visit on peak days.

I don't like FT, but it is a big source of income which otherwise would not be there, inevitably resulting in more cuts.

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Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think it is the same thing at all. You don't just go to the cinema and wait until a film starts. You know when it is on and usually book, if one screen is full up (so rare) you don't stand and wait the three or so hours until the next one starts, you see or do something else. My experience of the film is not affected in the slightest by others paying more for their premium service/seat.

Not visiting on peak days used to be a lovely treat, but now they are slashing opening hours all over the place and reducing capacity (a Thorpe trick, for now) to engineer queues and put so much demand on your time in the park it makes FT attractive even then. It seems to have become such an integral part of their business plan they can not do without it at any time. There are other ways to ensure profitability you know, like fair, honest and clear single price entry.

Re: Fastrack - more being sold?

pluk said:

Not visiting on peak days used to be a lovely treat, but now they are slashing opening hours all over the place and reducing capacity (a Thorpe trick, for now) to engineer queues and put so much demand on your time in the park it makes FT attractive even then. It seems to have become such an integral part of their business plan they can not do without it at any time. There are other ways to ensure profitability you know, like fair, honest and clear single price entry.

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I don't think that's the case at all - it's not profitable to run rides at full capacity when the demand isn't there. If there is no queue - then why should Oblivion run 6 shuttles, or Nemesis 2 trains. Even if there is a queue the park would rather the saving on running costs for the sake of 5-10 extra minutes.

Just want to clear up that Thorpe do not reduce capacity deliberately to "engineer queues". That is completely untrue.

They definitely don't deliberately cause queues. They just deliberately cut staffing budgets so that they cannot afford to run with all trains, which then creates queues to the delights of those who enjoy queue jumping (thats the free version, not fastrack).

No, they don't. If the park is busy enough to justify certain rides being run at a higher/full capacity, they will be.

Also, just to let you know that rides such as Colossus require the same number of staff to run on 1 train, as they do on 2. So cuts in staffing budget (which aren't as common as you are trying to insinuate,) have no effect on the number of trains run.

If they don't, then why have they decided to open their brand new ride (and the others) with one train in the morning until it gets busy enough to 'warrant' the second train... Which in turn causes more delays and waiting for everyone involved...

Thorpe's operating standards at times is silly... And they are still the worst for dealing with Fastrack and overselling...

I agree that they over-sell fastrack itself. But in terms of operation, the only reason for a ride being on one train first thing is that the guest forecast is low, or that the ride has been handed over late for some reason.

Also, you make that sound like it regularly happens, which it doesn't.

So all the times they opened at 9:30 (over 10, which is good) and had all the coasters on one train over Easter didn't happen?

I like DLP's (and all Disney Parks having used it in Aneheim too) FastTrack system. Main point being it's free, and fully timed. And at both parks I've never used it for every ride, just the couple where you know the queue is huge and there really is little other option (DLA - Splash Mountain and Indiana Jones, DLP - Peter Pan). I have no issue with it when it isn't a profit making venture, but a way of managing queues and most importantly, helps ensure everyone has a good day!

There was a time a couple of years ago in TP's Inferno queue where we were in the normal one (not even a really busy day) had been queuing for a good 45 mins already to get to the point where the FT queue joined. There was no one in it. But the ride op's instruction was he HAD to let a particular number of FT's through in one block before allowing any of the normal queue to continue on. So we just stood there, waiting until enough people had turned up with their non-timed slot FT tickets to go on.

pluk said:

I so wish Alton, and all Merlin attractions, would ditch the marketing and pricing trickery which they have become so reliant on. Work out how much they need off each guest to turn a profit and charge it; no parking charge, no fast track, no bogofs. Just a price and an entry ticket. As it stands at the moment people may be fooled by it all to get there in the first place, but are not fooled by the time they leave feeling ripped off and less likely to return.

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I wonder how many people choose to pay for FT because they got in with a 2for1 voucher? They've saved money getting in by only buying one ticket, so that £40 they might justify on buying FT?
And thus ruining the queues for everyone else - which is down to operating issues, but while there's operating issues, people will be willing to pay to bypass it, and more so having saved to get in.

I know a good number of people who wont consider going to any of the Merlin parks without a voucher because of the expense. And Melin FLOOD everywhere with them! Where's the sense in that?

If Merlin want to make money - stop having those offers available year round via one means or another. Drop the entry price to say £30. Instead of only getting £40 from two customers, they get £60. Profit of £20 straight there! They don't need to have paid FT then to recoup the loss of their 2for1's (and saves money through not paying for the deals with other companies to run for them, the printing cost of vouchers etc that mostly get binned or run out before they ever get used).
Alton's car park charge is just about justifiable, but only when it's becomes less than a fiver (given the relief road isn't being built now), and that the monorail is run properly and more frequently. Given the monorail is effectively a to/from carpark thing and what the car park charge could be justified for, it no doubt grates the queues are often slow moving and the 'its quicker to walk' calls that gets people grumbling about further (apart for the fact they're being charged full stop.)

Kelpie said:

I wonder how many people choose to pay for FT because they got in with a 2for1 voucher? They've saved money getting in by only buying one ticket, so that £40 they might justify on buying FT?
And thus ruining the queues for everyone else - which is down to operating issues, but while there's operating issues, people will be willing to pay to bypass it, and more so having saved to get in.

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Its interesting you say that, because last week when I was in the queue for Sub Terra, a woman in front of me with her daughter was talking to someone else and they had bought a fast track package for about £40, and she said they had the Sun free tickets, therefore it cost them nothing to get in, so it seemed worth paying for fastrack.

A lot of interesting points have been raised in this thread, and I think there is a couple of ways fast track can work.

Disney Fast Track - Allocated time slots, and free to everyone on a first come first served basis.

Merlin Fast Track - Sell as many as possible to make as much money and not worry about the main queue.

Ideal Fast Track - As someone mentioned earlier, it should be capped to a % of the ride capacity and not over sold or sold at the ride entrance. If it is running reduced trains, they should not be sold. The money raised from Fast Track should be used to increase the budget for the ride (More themeing, bigger ride, etc), and not just to make extra profit. Once they extra cost of the ride is covered, the Fast Pass revenue could be used to maintain the ride.

I think Merlin have gotten greedy, and while I have no problem with people using them, and have used them in the past, some of the tactics used by Merlin such as selling the Fast Passes at the ride entrances, or selling fast passes for rides not running at full capacity is greed, and if the general public were aware of these things would not go down well.

Ian

Re: Fastrack - more being sold?

smudge said:

With the wi-fi couldn't they include an option to buy on the app? They could have timed slots (and limited)

For example you can still choose what package you want, then there is a choice of time slots for each ride.

I would think hour slots then 10 minuteslots would be easily understood and you could limit each slot depending on the ride. Oblivion could allow say 500 fast-tracks an hour. Rita, just 200, thirteen 400 etc. Basically still allowing a decent throughput for non fast track.

The thing is with a centralised system such as the app, it could be changed. If there is a short que for something, more ft's could be available. And vice versa if the que is exceptionally long.

Also the system would be aware when there are no slots left, and could stop selling further packages. Maybe packages could be flexible and change with the que trend of the day.

This would also save 1000's in wages each day and also save grace for non FTers who will still be moving in the que. Without the timed slots, it is pot luck if you are just in the que at the wrong time and 100 people with fastrscks turn up.


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Firstly, let me say I agree with Fast Track, However couldn't this be argued as elitest against people that do not have a smart phone?

Meat Pie said:

I've just explained quite a few times exactly why fastracks should be looked at in this manner. No-one has yet been able to debunk that argument and so my point stands. You're right, express parking is also guilty of similar economic discrimination, also something that ought to be addressed but this topic is about fastrack and that is why I'm talking about fastrack instead of express parking . I cannot comment on Ryanair, having never been on a flight, I simply don't know what the priority boarding system is but if it detracts from the service of the standard customers, I should imagine my opinion would be the same as it is for fastrack.

If you think that I was suggesting that Alton are exploiting loopholes, you have completely and utterly missed the point of what I was saying. I never suggested any such thing, and all I did was make an argument about whether an individual carrying out a morally questionable but perfectly allowed action should be considered personally responsible for their decision to carry out said action. That is what I meant by comparing it to the Jimmy Carr issue. I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear.

Are you telling me you would have no problem with the bank scenario I posted? It creates second class citizens of those who are unable to pay, and I refuse to let those who benefit from such a system to go unquestioned.

Fastrack shows how little Alton considers it's 'standard rate' customers and reveals the selfishness of customers who take this opportunity to get ahead of others.

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In any service industry there will always be oportunities to pay for a better service, in more selective restaurants you pay for private dining, airlines give different different levels depending on how much you have paid, internet sales charge more for you to get your item quicker. Its a simple fact of life.

I am sure that you will have paid for something less than the basic service at some point you just dont want to admit it. Alton offers the same options any one else does in life, the more you pay the better service you get. Its as simple as that, whilst fastrack does take up slots in the queue it is effectively "rationed" also to limit the effect so that AT do not reduce the "basic" level of service that you have purchsed with you initial enrtry cost.

Towseriv said:

Meat Pie said:

I've just explained quite a few times exactly why fastracks should be looked at in this manner. No-one has yet been able to debunk that argument and so my point stands. You're right, express parking is also guilty of similar economic discrimination, also something that ought to be addressed but this topic is about fastrack and that is why I'm talking about fastrack instead of express parking . I cannot comment on Ryanair, having never been on a flight, I simply don't know what the priority boarding system is but if it detracts from the service of the standard customers, I should imagine my opinion would be the same as it is for fastrack.

If you think that I was suggesting that Alton are exploiting loopholes, you have completely and utterly missed the point of what I was saying. I never suggested any such thing, and all I did was make an argument about whether an individual carrying out a morally questionable but perfectly allowed action should be considered personally responsible for their decision to carry out said action. That is what I meant by comparing it to the Jimmy Carr issue. I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear.

Are you telling me you would have no problem with the bank scenario I posted? It creates second class citizens of those who are unable to pay, and I refuse to let those who benefit from such a system to go unquestioned.

Fastrack shows how little Alton considers it's 'standard rate' customers and reveals the selfishness of customers who take this opportunity to get ahead of others.

Click to expand...

In any service industry there will always be oportunities to pay for a better service, in more selective restaurants you pay for private dining, airlines give different different levels depending on how much you have paid, internet sales charge more for you to get your item quicker. Its a simple fact of life.

I am sure that you will have paid for something less than the basic service at some point you just dont want to admit it. Alton offers the same options any one else does in life, the more you pay the better service you get. Its as simple as that, whilst fastrack does take up slots in the queue it is effectively "rationed" also to limit the effect so that AT do not reduce the "basic" level of service that you have purchsed with you initial enrtry cost.

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I agree with everything you've said there except the last part I've highlighted

While in theory this is how Fastrack should work it simply doesn't anymore. It used it! Originally it was used as a method of getting the best throughputs for all guests in either queue, with the shortest waiting time possible.

However, these days the attitude seems to be "sell as many as we possibly can, and make the most profit". Aside from the costs of the basic materials Fastrack is more or less 100% profit for the company, and therefore they seem very keen to push it and sell the absolute maximum.

This over-saturation of the Fastrack queuelines in turn has a negative impact on the regular queues, and increases their wait time.

As I said earlier Towers need to look into how they manage and run the system. I have nothing against such a system being in place, and I guess there's nothing really wrong with it giving the park some extra much needed income, providing people are willing to pay for it, and it's not an extortionate rate (I'm sure we'd all like it to be free as it once was, and like Disney parks, but I think those days are long gone). But the thing which annoys us the most is the way it penalizes the non-paying guests, and increases their wait time. It isn't needed and can be avoided. It just depends on the park making the first move towards a better system.

With regards to the apparent superiority and "elitist" view though I think you've hit the nail right on the head Why, I can even think of at least another two examples of this happening like you say on the Resort:

Early Ride Time - It excludes those who can't book online, or who don't want to pay extra for an annual pass.

Express Parking - Means that those who don't want to pay extra have to walk further to get to the park entrance.

As you say, this sort of thing happens all the time elsewhere, so why make such a big deal out of it in this case? Sure, Fastrack at present isn't great as we've established, but the suggestion of elitism is just something which happens everywhere in today's society.

Towseriv said:

smudge said:

With the wi-fi couldn't they include an option to buy on the app? They could have timed slots (and limited)

For example you can still choose what package you want, then there is a choice of time slots for each ride.

I would think hour slots then 10 minuteslots would be easily understood and you could limit each slot depending on the ride. Oblivion could allow say 500 fast-tracks an hour. Rita, just 200, thirteen 400 etc. Basically still allowing a decent throughput for non fast track.

The thing is with a centralised system such as the app, it could be changed. If there is a short que for something, more ft's could be available. And vice versa if the que is exceptionally long.

Also the system would be aware when there are no slots left, and could stop selling further packages. Maybe packages could be flexible and change with the que trend of the day.

This would also save 1000's in wages each day and also save grace for non FTers who will still be moving in the que. Without the timed slots, it is pot luck if you are just in the que at the wrong time and 100 people with fastrscks turn up.


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Click to expand...

Firstly, let me say I agree with Fast Track, However couldn't this be argued as elitest against people that do not have a smart phone?

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Well there are other ways. We do seem to live in a world which assumes we all have an Internet connection, we all have a smart phone, and we all have a computer. However, there are other options which could be looked into if it was felt this issue was large enough.

For example, alongside a digital system for smart phones Alton could look at going back to the old days and use text messaging as an alternative for those without smart phones. It'd give the option then, and also isn't dependent on the wireless network or mobile data. It'd give the best of both worlds.

As oppose to displaying a barcode or QR code the message containing the "ticket" could just have a barcode number which is entered by the staff member on a handheld device which is also used to scan the e-Tickets. Most barcode readers will have the option to enter a number instead anyway for the occasion when the barcodes don't want to scan

Also though, as we know and like you have said fast track creates prob 99% profit so we have to ask the question if this revenue was lost what would be done to replace it? Nobody from the business side of things would accept just loosing the revenue and any changes they did make we would surley all hate, prob more than fast track, at least this isn't a forced cost to us like the parking charge is.

Towseriv said:

Also though, as we know and like you have said fast track creates prob 99% profit so we have to ask the question if this revenue was lost what would be done to replace it?

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Charge a price on the gate that was enough to turn a profit without adding on loads of hidden extras?
Charge more for FT so less are sold but the profit is the same?
Actually manage the system rather than sell as many FTs as you can and hope for the best?

There are many many things that could be done better than now without harming profit.

James6 said:

Just want to clear up that Thorpe do not reduce capacity deliberately to "engineer queues". That is completely untrue.

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Really? I have been so many times in the last couple of years and waited in 30min or so queues for one train operations for Colossus, Inferno and Stealth. You telling me only one train has been operational on all these rides on multiple occasions on fairly busy days? Rubbish. On every occasion, of course, there was the repugnant sales person barking at me with their sales pitch as I enter the standard queue.

Last year I approach Saw, where the queue is hidden behind the ride building, and young girl was shouting at us as at the queue entrance "SKIP THE HOUR QUEUE FOR A FIVER(?)" (I can't actually remember the price). The queue time board was also showing 60mins. I ignored her, obviously, and joined the standard queue to find .... guess what...?

Of course. A five minute queue. The FT and standard queue outside were practically the same length. I waited for one 'batch' form each queue and took my seat next to some poor bloke who approached at the same time as me but paid up. That is such disgusting way to treat your customers.