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The Brexit Thread
- Thread starter Matt N
- Start date
Rob
TS Team
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Delays after delays after delays are just costing us more and more money and taking up so much time. How can that be good for anyone? Parliament as it stands is not going to approve any sort of deal. They had a chance to vote in favour of various options earlier this year and none got a majority.
We are going round and round in circles. All that is certain right now is uncertainty, and uncertainty is good for no-one. As I said, leaving is a big mistake. But we are leaving. I hate it, but it's tough. Let's just leave, with a deal because no deal would be awful. Let's try and get a free trade agreement. And let's get on with things.
Continously rejecting every idea that any policician has, other than to delay, is getting us nowhere.
And should leave win again, what makes you think it will be respected this time? If you laudably believe it's because people know what they're voting for this time, then I've got news for you, we knew what we were voting for last time, and most haven't changed their minds. Everybody refers to the figures painted on the side of a buss as an example of how people were misled and didn't know what they were taking about, whilst conveniently forgetting the World War 3 predictions and "I fear I'll see rows and rows of white crosses" fear mongering lies that came from the other side.
The Liberal Democrats have openly admitted if this scenario did happen they would continue to fight against it because "they know better" and said if they had their way they would revoke article 50 without even a vote about it, maybe they should rename their party to Liberal Dictators at the same time because what they propose is the very polar opposite of Democratic.
We don't need a second vote, we've already voted and the responsibility is now with Parliment to carry out the wishes of those who voted, you're pissed that remain lost? Shoulda worked harder. Leave didn't win, remain lost because the very people pushing the remain argument were the same people who had lied and screwed over a whole generation of kids previously so these kids didn't bother to vote at all.
Stuie
TS Member
I know of people who've changed their minds. I also know of several now 18 year olds who are upset they couldn't vote in 2016 and would now like to. And finally, a relative who voted leave but is now sadly dead.
Saying that people haven't changed their mind suits your position I suppose, but I think you are kidding yourself if you think that people fully understood how this would play out - I don't recall anyone saying anything about the NI border, for example.
Nonsense, back in 2016, no one knew what Brexit was going to look like, we were made all sorts of promise that were impossible to implement.
The leave vote was won by only 4%
Yes people have change their minds and that goes both ways.
I know people that voted leave on the back of that NHS promise on the side of that bus and have now regretted voting leave. People have the right to change their minds, especially when they have been mislead.
I feel that a people vote based on facts that have now become apparent as opposed to the original lies will mean a second vote will hold more weight.
Recent opinion polls have shown that many people have now change their minds and would like to revoke article 50, however if the past is anything to go by, opinion polls have been know to be wrong in the past.
The problem is that the politicians may make the law, but they also have to follow the law too. Boris is a law to himself.
Why should any vote be respected years on? Especially when the years have brought so much to light, with much change. Especially when there was a general election which superceded the result of that referendum.
In a democracy votes are constantly being taken, to adjust, review and repeal the current laws and the direction of the country in general to bring about change. Its just how it works. If we had only one vote on everything there would be no room for change.
As for the lib Dems their manifesto is clear. If I vote for them, and they win, who are you to tell them they shouldn't represent me and stand up for what they believe in. How dare you say that my vote and my representative is worth less because you don't agree with them!
If brexit can be resolved in parliment then so be it. 5 votes on essentially the same deal, and indicative votes which gave every option a minority make me strongly believe that it's not possible to do so. In an impasse, where there is no majority, there is only one thing to do. Take the vote to the public, in the form of a referendum or general election and forge a road forward.
This deal is not finishing brexit, it's starting it. Any future trading relationships are to be negotiated going forward. So any sentiment of "getting it done and over with" is wildly disingenuous.
Rick
TS Member
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I think a second referendum is problematic for a lot of reasons, but if the proposition is different then it feels marginally less so because it's a different referendum. If the Leave option is as well defined as the Remain one, that does provide a certain clarity that the first vote couldn't possibly provide.
I mean this with real sincerity, I do not understand what this means. Johnson's definition of Brexit is quite different to that of May's and is unrecognisable versus what it would have looked like if either of the main parties would have got a majority in the 2017 GE. If what you know you voted for is that malleable, I don't understand how you can even begin to understand the benefits and any potential disadvantages of it. That's not just with Brexit, but with anything.
I know this has been posted before, but it's still great;
Benzin
TS Member
Should a parliament carry out the wishes of a people even if it would result in job losses, supply problems and a whole load more of red tape?
I mean a lot of the Remain predictions of the economy dying were prevented by the Treasury inputting money to combat against it... Combined with the fact that we've not left (apparent misunderstanding is that we can just leave based off the comments on most BBC/DM articles, though if these are just bots who knows)...
In terms of fear mongering, Farage and his poster of Turkish immigration being a potential problem (when we could veto them joining cos Erdogan) was probably the absolute worst for it... We've had the NHS discussion before but we're more likely to lose that in a no deal situation...
Why can't we have another vote when parliament have gone over to do the "easiest trade deal in history" only to find out actually it's difficult and will cause a fair amount of problems to the country? I won't understand that as an argument as anti-democratic...
Interestingly Dyson recently cancelled development of an electric car because the costs weren't viable anymore; but they promised one in 2016 so they should provide one to us regardless if it kills the company...
I mean a lot of the Remain predictions of the economy dying were prevented by the Treasury inputting money to combat against it... Combined with the fact that we've not left (apparent misunderstanding is that we can just leave based off the comments on most BBC/DM articles, though if these are just bots who knows)...
In terms of fear mongering, Farage and his poster of Turkish immigration being a potential problem (when we could veto them joining cos Erdogan) was probably the absolute worst for it... We've had the NHS discussion before but we're more likely to lose that in a no deal situation...
Why can't we have another vote when parliament have gone over to do the "easiest trade deal in history" only to find out actually it's difficult and will cause a fair amount of problems to the country? I won't understand that as an argument as anti-democratic...
Interestingly Dyson recently cancelled development of an electric car because the costs weren't viable anymore; but they promised one in 2016 so they should provide one to us regardless if it kills the company...
He was also a Brexit supporter, but yet move all his company abroad
Brexit will hurt the manufacturing business. The car business is a great example of this. To build a car requires many components. These components are built in various countries at different stages of their build. Take for example the head lamp of a car, the raw components are brought into the UK who turn these into a small component. This component is sent to a factory in the EU to add to other components to make a bigger component. This bigger component is then sent back to the UK to add to other components to make a bigger component, this bigger component is sent back to a different factory in the EU to be added to further components to make the final headlamp, this headlamp is then sent back to the UK to be fitted to a car. This headlamp will have moved between the UK and the EU several times. Under the free trade, this can be done cheaply, but if we leave without a deal, the cost of these will go up as tariffs will have to be added each time the component pass between the UK and the EU. This is just one part of a car, imagine how much the cost of a brand new car will go up as this will be applied to all the different parts of a car. This is why the politicians have to get Brexit right other wise we will lose all our manufacturing to other countries.
Brexit is complicated and is not just as simple as just leaving.
Leaving the EU is like giving up my Merlin Annual Pass, as much as I don't like Merlin, as a regular visitor it will cost me more to visit the attractions without the extra MAP benefits.
This is exactly why we vote in knowledgeable, clued in, politically minded politicians.
Because we can't be expected to read and understand a 67 page legal text, let alone know the impacts it will have on the country. It is their exact job to do this, to let us all know, and to vote in our best interests whether we agree with them or not!
If you can't trust your MP to do this, which I totally understand people feeling, then get active. Write letters, let them know what you think and why. When it comes to elections make sure you stand up for what you believe and vote for who you think can successfully achieve this.
It's by far not a perfect system. Quite flawed really. But it's the system we have, and there isn't any reform in sight. So you've got to work with it.
bluesonichd
TS Member
This is what the trade deal is for after we have left the EU. Likewise the EU will want a good deal the other way to continue selling their stuff to us to keep manufacturing going.He was also a Brexit supporter, but yet move all his company abroad
Brexit will hurt the manufacturing business. The car business is a great example of this. To build a car requires many components. These components are built in various countries at different stages of their build. Take for example the head lamp of a car, the raw components are brought into the UK who turn these into a small component. This component is sent to a factory in the EU to add to other components to make a bigger component. This bigger component is then sent back to the UK to add to other components to make a bigger component, this bigger component is sent back to a different factory in the EU to be added to further components to make the final headlamp, this headlamp is then sent back to the UK to be fitted to a car. This headlamp will have moved between the UK and the EU several times. Under the free trade, this can be done cheaply, but if we leave without a deal, the cost of these will go up as tariffs will have to be added each time the component pass between the UK and the EU. This is just one part of a car, imagine how much the cost of a brand new car will go up as this will be applied to all the different parts of a car. This is why the politicians have to get Brexit right other wise we will lose all our manufacturing to other countries.
Brexit is complicated and is not just as simple as just leaving.
Leaving the EU is like giving up my Merlin Annual Pass, as much as I don't like Merlin, as a regular visitor it will cost me more to visit the attractions without the extra MAP benefits.
imanautie
TS Member
I'm sure there's already existing processes in place for handling duties and taxes for something not staying in the country (IPR) but from what I hear in the office it involves a lot more paperwork and it can't just go through and have customs check paperwork after it's been delivered.He was also a Brexit supporter, but yet move all his company abroad
Brexit will hurt the manufacturing business. The car business is a great example of this. To build a car requires many components. These components are built in various countries at different stages of their build. Take for example the head lamp of a car, the raw components are brought into the UK who turn these into a small component. This component is sent to a factory in the EU to add to other components to make a bigger component. This bigger component is then sent back to the UK to add to other components to make a bigger component, this bigger component is sent back to a different factory in the EU to be added to further components to make the final headlamp, this headlamp is then sent back to the UK to be fitted to a car. This headlamp will have moved between the UK and the EU several times. Under the free trade, this can be done cheaply, but if we leave without a deal, the cost of these will go up as tariffs will have to be added each time the component pass between the UK and the EU. This is just one part of a car, imagine how much the cost of a brand new car will go up as this will be applied to all the different parts of a car. This is why the politicians have to get Brexit right other wise we will lose all our manufacturing to other countries.
Brexit is complicated and is not just as simple as just leaving.
Leaving the EU is like giving up my Merlin Annual Pass, as much as I don't like Merlin, as a regular visitor it will cost me more to visit the attractions without the extra MAP benefits.
Sent from my Swift 2 Plus using Tapatalk
Alsty
TS Member
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To argue that all 17.4m people knew what they were voting for is nonsense. There are many versions of Brexit, for example being like Norway (quoted by Farage, Daniel Hannan and Aaron Banks before the referendum), and it's likely a percentage of the leave voters were expecting one of those types of Brexit rather than this one. We will never know what type of Brexit people actually wanted or will be happy with.
Cameron said that being in the EU was good for peace. He did not say leaving it would cause World War 3.
I'm curious why they would be called Liberal Dictators if they were voted in by the electorate on that mandate? Surely that's the epitome of democracy.
Yes but it will never, and can never, be as good as the current single market. It only makes sense to take this option if you can strike other worldwide trade deals to offset your costs. I don't see that happening.
I had a question about the single market (and life outside it) that maybe someone can answer?
So Japan has a FTA with the EU, meaning that no import costs are placed on goods entering the EU from the Japan.
Say we strike a deal with Japan which has 10% tariffs on electronics (to help out UK electronic manufacturers).
We also strike a FTA with the EU.
If I was to buy a Sony Playstation (Sony being Japanese) from a European country, and had it imported to the UK, would I owe the tariff? Or as it's been through the EU Route would it be tariff free?
Are trade deals like this incompatible?
Trade deals are obviously complicated, and I don't really understand how these deals will work if they are imbalanced between countries?
This would become important as we'd need deals with Asia and America's as they both produce products which we use.
So Japan has a FTA with the EU, meaning that no import costs are placed on goods entering the EU from the Japan.
Say we strike a deal with Japan which has 10% tariffs on electronics (to help out UK electronic manufacturers).
We also strike a FTA with the EU.
If I was to buy a Sony Playstation (Sony being Japanese) from a European country, and had it imported to the UK, would I owe the tariff? Or as it's been through the EU Route would it be tariff free?
Are trade deals like this incompatible?
Trade deals are obviously complicated, and I don't really understand how these deals will work if they are imbalanced between countries?
This would become important as we'd need deals with Asia and America's as they both produce products which we use.
Unless we get a deal, we will be leaving without a deal, and if we can't get a trade deal we will revert back to the WTO rules until we get a trade deal. So far parliament has failed to get a deal within the last few years, so it could still be a good few years before we get one.
For the last 3 years we been sold on the argument we would get a deal because the EU would want one and it would be in their interest to get one. So far it not happening, please wake up and smell the coffee
Benzin
TS Member
The problem lies when you get morons like Dominic Raab who "didn't realise the importance of Dover" to British trade ending up in charge of important roles...
I mean, there's idiocy and then there's that right?
I don't like Raab, and I don't believe he was qualified to do the job he was given.
However, I will not say that he shouldn't be in parliment. A group of people did believe in him, and chose him to represent them. I have to accept that, because he (and every MP I disagree with or dislike) has a right and a duty to be there.
I would hope that in the case of a future general election his constituents have changed their mind on him, and hopefully the ideology he stands for. But it's up to them, not me, to decide.
Stuie
TS Member
It's one thing being an elected MP but another to be placed in the cabinet.
I will never understand the process of appointing cabinet members. In most cases, the person has zero experience or knowledge of the specialist field to which they are appointed.
It makes absolutely no sense to me!