The Brexit Thread

[Benzin]

Someone with more knowledge on the legal matters might correct me, but I don't think the EU could go "you can revoke Article 50 but you have to do this"...

Even if they could, would they? They don't want to lose the UK as a trading partner, but are obviously looking out for the interests of those willing (or not so willing) to stay over the UK... Which is why in conjunction with our red lines the two deals we've offered up to parliament (the first of which being voted down by a lot of Leavers) have been so dreadful, but fit within our demands...

Revocation of A50 is down to us anyway, and the instant demands of setting up the timeframe is what got us into this mess in the first place post result...

 

[Jb85]

This won’t get through without a majority it won’t get revoked without a majority and we’re not gonna get a majority in the next election

we can’t leave without a deal (as the government voted it illegal)

we’re in a never ending loop until someone uses there brain and sees this

I’m a remainer but for god sake just vote the deal through and get this done

 

[speedy]

I’m a remainer but for god sake just vote the deal through and get this done

Why would anyone who wants to remain (48%, more or less, of the population) support a deal that'll result in us leaving the EU?

And even the Brexiteers, why should they support a deal that appears to be worse than Theresa May's?

 

[Jb85]

Why would anyone who wants to remain (48%, more or less, of the population) support a deal that'll result in us leaving the EU?

And even the Brexiteers, why should they support a deal that appears to be worse than Theresa May's?

simply because it’s dragging on to the detriment of the country with a party in charge that are determined to do this no matter what

and it’s law that we leave

ideal world - it goes back out to the voters and we revoke it

 

[IanSR]

Why would anyone who wants to remain (48%, more or less, of the population) support a deal that'll result in us leaving the EU?

And even the Brexiteers, why should they support a deal that appears to be worse than Theresa May's?

48% of those who voted, not 48% of the population, that's an important difference.

 

[delta79]

ideal world - it goes back out to the voters and we revoke it

In a ideal world, a time traveller would go back and add leave votes must make 75% of total votes to activate article 50, to the referendum bill.



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[bluesonichd]

Why remainers should support a deal the allows us to leave ... because they know that’s how democracy works.
They may not be happy about it but.

48% of those who voted, not 48% of the population, that's an important difference.

but the biggest turn out in voting history.
If they go back now on the question they asked and the answer given
Go back on their promise to carry out the result. Come what may.
What’s the point in ever voting again.

 

[speedy]

How is it law that we leave? Right now if we leave as scheduled the PM will be breaking the law!

As for "democracy", the public were lied to. There was no plan. The referendum shouldn't have gone ahead. It was a vote winner for David Cameron that went badly wrong. Wouldn't it be fairer, now that we have a clearer idea of what leaving actually involves, to have a second referendum?

Also there are two Polish people at my work, one of whom has lived in the UK for over 15 years, and they weren't allowed to vote. How is that fair? They are allowed to vote on Scottish matters, so it's a Westminster decision stopping them from voting. Shouldn't the people who Brexit affects the most be allowed a say?

 

[imanautie]

Is now the time to mention that legally the referendum was basically an opinion poll and not binding in any way shape or form?

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[Rick]

I’m a remainer but for god sake just vote the deal through and get this done

Get what done? This is absolutely the beginning of a lot of the things that matter!

If this deal goes through, we then have 14 months to negotiate a future trading arrangement which could essentially end up being WTO. With the ERG backing this and the leader facilitating it, I don't think we're heading for any sort of close alignment.

I think it's quite telling that worker's rights, close alignment etc that were in the (legally binding) WA under May's deal are now in the (non-binding) PD under Johnson's.

Is now the time to mention that legally the referendum was basically an opinion poll and not binding in any way shape or form?

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No, that was yesterday.

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[Jb85]

Get what done? This is absolutely the beginning of a lot of the things that matter!

If this deal goes through, we then have 14 months to negotiate a future trading arrangement which could essentially end up being WTO. With the ERG backing this and the leader facilitating it, I don't think we're heading for any sort of close alignment.

I think it's quite telling that worker's rights, close alignment etc that were in the (legally binding) WA under May's deal are now in the (non-binding) PD under Johnson's.


No, that was yesterday.

Sent from my Macbook Pro using Chrome

for the record I think the whole thing is a farce ...

We were all lied to, that is now clear

the biggest issue now is the lack of progress in getting this done. The poll said we leave that is what is clearly going to happen and I firmly believe that if this is the decision we go with we need to do it ASAP. Leave with no deal if we have to. At least then we have a degree of certainty. The uncertainty is killing this country and the economy.

Either that or admit defeat and revoke.

 

[Rick]

@Jb85 I think the whole 'we need to do it ASAP' thing is part of the problem,

The uncertainty isn't really killing the economy - look at the numbers. You could really kill the economy by trying to over simplify this whole thing and try to get it done quickly without the care and scrutiny that it deserves. This is all heinously complicated, for reasons that should have been abundantly clear. Whatever happens will set the direction of the country for the rest of our lifetime and probably that of our kids too.

Leaving without a deal doesn't provide any certainty at all, it'd be the most ridiculous act of self harm.

Brexit seems to make everyone go insane. People wouldn't apply this (lack of) logic to any other of life's negotiations.

 

[Jb85]

@Jb85 I think the whole 'we need to do it ASAP' thing is part of the problem,

The uncertainty isn't really killing the economy - look at the numbers. You could really kill the economy by trying to over simplify this whole thing and try to get it done quickly without the care and scrutiny that it deserves. This is all heinously complicated, for reasons that should have been abundantly clear. Whatever happens will set the direction of the country for the rest of our lifetime and probably that of our kids too.

Leaving without a deal doesn't provide any certainty at all, it'd be the most ridiculous act of self harm.

Brexit seems to make everyone go insane. People wouldn't apply this (lack of) logic to any other of life's negotiations.

I agree with your points but your missing the biggest point t of all - were not revoking article 50. It’s not going to happen

therefore moving on (whether it’s a bad deal, no deal or a new deal) is the only way forward now.

 

[Benzin]

That we should just accept a bad deal just because we're tired of it would be a worrying trend to have in politics...

Fortunately many of the MPs haven't given up fighting, much in the same way I would imagine Farage & co to do the exact same if the roles had been reversed...

 

[speedy]

I agree with your points but your missing the biggest point t of all - were not revoking article 50. It’s not going to happen

therefore moving on (whether it’s a bad deal, no deal or a new deal) is the only way forward now.

There's no reason why we can't revoke it. If the Libdems or the Greens got into power (not that that is likely to happen) then article 50 would be revoked.

 

[RoyJess]

People seem to think as soon as we leave, all this Brexit argument/problems will simple just go away. No it won't, we will still have years of negotiating to do with various countries and this could still leave us all with a life time of uncertainty that will affect business's.

The best deal is the one that we currently got as members of the EU. Regardless if we are in or out, business will still need to comply with EU rules if they want to trade with them.

 

[Rob]

British politics is a shambolic mess. I can't see any party coming close to a majority in a general election. This parlimiant is not looking likely to pass any form of Brexit deal. Pretty much all of the parties only care about their own agendas. It's a joke.

I voted to remain and I think leaving is a big mistake. However we held a vote and leave won, I accept that the result needs to be respected. I'm getting fed up with how this is dragging on and on, and how it is dominating our politics at the moment. I've not looked at it in detail but it does sound like Johnson's deal is worse than May's, but I now at the point where I think we should just go with it, try and get a trade deal negotiated (which will never get done in a year but we can get an extension to that) and move on.

If we held a second referendum and remain won then you just know there would be demands for a third and final vote. I'm not sure that a second referendum in the answer at all.

 

[Doublethink]

British politics is a shambolic mess. I can't see any party coming close to a majority in a general election. This parlimiant is not looking likely to pass any form of Brexit deal. Pretty much all of the parties only care about their own agendas. It's a joke.

I voted to remain and I think leaving is a big mistake. However we held a vote and leave won, I accept that the result needs to be respected. I'm getting fed up with how this is dragging on and on, and how it is dominating our politics at the moment. I've not looked at it in detail but it does sound like Johnson's deal is worse than May's, but I now at the point where I think we should just go with it, try and get a trade deal negotiated (which will never get done in a year but we can get an extension to that) and move on.

If we held a second referendum and remain won then you just know there would be demands for a third and final vote. I'm not sure that a second referendum in the answer at all.

What ever way you voted or feel about Brexit I think most people can agree the way the media, public and especially parliament has been shambolic. No one has been willing to make any compromises, both sides have resulted to pathetic point scoring and parliament has been vote the opposite way to the other major party because other party bad....it's its pathetic and everyone is just fatigued of this process which looks like it could drag on years, especially if requests for an early election get voted down on fears that it will be lost

 

[RoyJess]

British politics is a shambolic mess. I can't see any party coming close to a majority in a general election. This parlimiant is not looking likely to pass any form of Brexit deal. Pretty much all of the parties only care about their own agendas. It's a joke.

I voted to remain and I think leaving is a big mistake.

I fully agree with you on this

However we held a vote and leave won, I accept that the result needs to be respected.

I disagree with this. Some of us didn't know what they were voting for. The lies about the NHS figure on the side of the bus which was the basis for some voters to vote for leaving and clearly was a lie. This was a lie from the outset as this was revealed to be a lie on the day of the referendum results. The voters were clearly mislead on this but the leave party did not say anything about this being a lie knowing full well that it was.

Boris Johnson can't be trusted, it was he that pushed for that NHS figure on the side of the bus. Parliament don't trust him, nor should we.

A second referendum should be in two parts.

Part A,

1. Leave
2. Revoke Article 50

Part B,

If the leave vote wins

1. Teresa May Deal
2. Boris Johnson Deal
3. Leave without a Deal
4. Other Deal

This second referendum should on the basis that it will be a final binding one and will be respected on the basis that we are now better informed.

 

[Stuie]

I’m a remainer but for god sake just vote the deal through and get this done

I'm getting fed up with how this is dragging on and on, and how it is dominating our politics at the moment.

So, you both voted remain and still want to remain but because it's all getting a bit boring just want them to get on with it and push through something that's so much worse than what we have now.

That's the problem here - people get tired and the defences weaken. If the MP's are also getting jaded then, eventually, they will vote through this same old 'deal'.

This isn't about being fed up with what's on the news tonight - it's about every day for the rest of your life, your children's/nieces/nephews/grandkids lives. Please don't just accept any old shit just to change the front page.