Team Decisions

The thing is... The thread was moved to an area of the site only accessible to members. So in my opinion, regardless of what people could possibly think about Craig's post - the potential members couldn't see it and the new members probably wouldn't have ventured into the Tavern anyway.

For the record, I totally agree with the decision and think that this is all a bit of fuss over nothing. I'm just pointing out that this wouldn't have even really affected new or potential members opinions as the post was only directed towards the existing membership.


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mrbrightside said:

The thing is... The thread was moved to an area of the site only accessible to members. So in my opinion, regardless of what people could possibly think about Craig's post - the potential members couldn't see it and the new members probably wouldn't have ventured into the Tavern anyway.

For the record, I totally agree with the decision and think that this is all a bit of fuss over nothing. I'm just pointing out that this wouldn't have even really affected new or potential members opinions as the post was only directed towards the existing membership.

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That's not entirely true Brighty dude, it was moved because it stirred a debate - well, I stirred one lol, that created multiple posts, that got bumped over here. So the post wasn't directed at old members.

Actually, for balance I left that in above - but yes you are right actually. It did get moved with the statement explaining why.

Good point, bar one point, new members would still view this of course! Of which there many inactive, posting wise.

I also though didn't realise CT was members only. It also wasn't meant to cause a big kerfuffle lol, but seeing as everyone has the DT's at the moment I'm not surprised it did ;D

Some members on here though, need to take a good, long hard look at themselves and learn some respect for others.

EDIT:
None of whom who have posted since this was moved by the way!

I appreciate differing opinions, I love them in fact, but insults are flying around too much lately. That is not only the sites responsibility to deal with, the individual should know the difference between respectful, even heated debates and outright insults etc. Not something I tolerate in any area of my life or work.

TheMan said:

They aren't what the site is in short Rob, they are your reasons for joining and the parts of it you enjoy. You should enjoy that freely, but it shouldn't stop others who come for different reasons, from the same. All my concern was, was the context of the statement didn't really reflect that - even though it's content, was totally and absolutely without fault.

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No, what I said is what all of these sites are. If you were to ask all the founders of various Towers sites I am certain that they will tell you that they set up the websites as they were fans of Towers and wanted to create a fansite for fellow fans. That doesn't stop all other enthusiasts from joining, far from it, but at the end of the day this is an Alton Towers fansite.

Aly said:

TheMan said:

Aly said:

I think the reason the statement doesn't sit right is because you are reading the statement in the wrong way.

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I don't disagree with this Aly. In fact, in a roundabout way, it's exactly my point.

There are blurred boundaries, and as a site, you want this to be clear as daylight.

I am giving my opinions only, others (the regulars especially) will disagree, because they already have an intimate understanding. That is to be expected.

I may be on my own in this view, which is also fine, it will not be the first or last time lol! I just once again, gave my opinions as a relative "noob" as to how this comes across.

That is neither right nor wrong, it can be heeded, or ignored - either way, I'm going to express my opinion as it may assist thought in the future, and gives a perspective based on my experiences down the years, I felt it dutiful to share.

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Sorry, I forget that you have went through more experiences than the entire population of TST put together.

We should really put you in charge tbh.

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Regardless of previous comments, I think posts like this add very little to the discussion, and rather just add to annoynace etc. I think it's fair to let everyone have their opinions aired, as long as they don't insult others, nor attack anyone directly, or, in this case, affect Alton Towers in a sinister way.

On this particular topic, I think it was the correct thing to move the topic from 'public' view, into somewhere on the forum that's still readily accessible to established members, should they wish to either look for it, or access the particular part in which it now resides. There isn't anything else, seemingly, TST could have done, short of removing the topic, s they were originally asked to do.

I'm normally one of the first to complain when it looks like the team are bowing to pressure from Merlin to censor something. But in this case I think moving the topic to the tavern was the right thing to do.
Maybe we could use a "members only" section for serious talk as well as rude stuff?

This topic seems to have moved from one point to another and the key thing for me is the new member issue. It's something that would always come up back when we where on TT and its something I always feel passionate about because when I joined TT in 2006 the team back then and the established members where incredibly cold to new members.

I posted rarely for 3 years when I noticed the forums had become ALOT friendlier and therefore engaged with the forums and I hate it when established members are rude to new members... It just bugs me. Therefore my point is when ever a topic like this comes up my first question is IF you have seen someone be rude to any member not just a new one why are people not reporting the post.

I can only assume based on the fact our new members seem to be engaging that's its not an endemic problem but if there are any rude posters then they need reporting. We have a team of 10 people and although all the team have modding powers some of the team are focused more on the site. Considering we have a whole site to create and the forums are very popular we can't review every post by hand, this is why we have a report button.

So my main point is please if you think a post is out of line use the flag post button and tell us. We can't afford as a new community to lose any interest from fresh faces and it goes against what we want as a team and the whole reason we moved.

Ben said:

Im very confused how has moving a topic made us unfriendly and not welcoming to new members? Could someone clarify the point for me - or have I missed some obvious event?

My view on the moved topic, Alton asked us to remove it, we as a team came up with a compromise to please our members (our primary concern) and also Alton Towers, who we have a friendly relationship with and would like to keep too.

I dont see what else there is to say about it all.

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Ben, I think you must be walking around with blinkers on, and choosing to read a post as fits your wish to associate my post to something it is not associated to.

Allow me to circumvent that if you will.

You tell me, as a Team Member, setting an example, exactly where I have said moving this thread makes you an unfriendly bunch please?

It should not be my duty, after how clear and obvious this thread in itself has become, to point this out again.

If you can point me, to one post I have made, where I mention "Team" and "Unfriendly" in relation to "topic moved".. well good luck with that.

I have expressed nothing but 100% support for Craig, his work, and that the decision he made was in fact correct.

I made a point about how it came across to me, that led to some rude unnecessary commentary, that I have since commented on, and other members have agreed with.

Where that is concerned, I believe to a degree I am speaking the "unspeakable" as this clearly involves more "established" members. I'm really not fussed in breaking this trend in fairness, twice in in the last couple of days I have had people question my integrity. Sam, in the Hitler post whom went quiet after my response, and Aly in this one.

Debate I welcome. Rudeness I do not. There you have examples to what I refer. Do I want anything done about it? No. Absolutely not. It removes the pleasure of my "right of reply".

That however, is a completely separate issue on a point I raised about how the lines are blurred, as to where TST stand with AT, and this is less than clear to new members such as my self.

It was not about what was done, it was about how it could come across. A view not shared by many regulars, which is fine as I have no issues with other peoples opinions, and at many points enjoy debating with them.

EDIT:

And the voracity with which I have to both defend my right to an opinion, minus insults, as well as constantly reaffirm what I am not talking about multiple times now, really is just an example of how clinical this forum can be at times.

It is not helpful for new members, of that you can be assured, and had I not been such a stubborn git I can assure you I would have left by now. This has tested even my decency at times, and I repeatedly state jovially that I am at times stunned as to some of the things that are said here.

The fact I defending this so staunchly is now one of principle, twice I have to do this to team members, there needs to be a wholesale attitude change here now in my opinion.

Now opinions are like bottoms, everyone has one, that is mine - you are all of course most entitled to yours, I ask you respect mine please, as I respect yours - and the Team can either listen or ignore, which I also of course respect.

In my view, this was definitely the right move. It's in the interest of the forum to respect the park's wishes on matters such as this. The last thing we want is to make AT our enemy. I personally do consider this to be a fan forum. Whilst many of us may often complain and say nasty things about the park and its rides, we are here because we love the park and a good relationship with them can only be to our benefit.

Despite this, I don't see this as sucking up to the park at all. If any business were to directly contact the site requesting photos of their property to be taken down or moved over worries of vandalism or security problems, it would be done and no one would have anything to say on the matter. It's a perfectly reasonable request.

As for the general friendliness of the forum, no forum is or can ever be perfect. TTF was the first forum I joined back when many members of this community were there. When I ventured out onto other parts of the coaster internet realm, I was shocked by how unfriendly and nasty other places could be in comparison.

Sometimes debates can get needlessly heated here, people can be a bit sarcy (as can be seen above) and there is very much an accepted way of thinking that can make life difficult if you disagree. Overall though, this is still the friendliest, most well rounded, best moderated forum that I know of. There are some places where even daring to make a complaint about the site would bring out the ban hammer!

I think Ben was using "us" meaning TS not the team.

As for where the lines are between Alton Towers and TowersStreet.

1) we are independent of Alton Towers and members rights come first

2) we are fans of Alton Towers and this is a fan site, therefore where we can support the park without affecting the first point we will.

We have turned down requests from Towers in the past, though obviously these don't get noticed because obviously if we have said no that means nothing has happened. We have also supported Towers in the past.

If we can please both sides then all the better which is what we have achieved here, we can't spell out each decision we make but the About part of the site has all the promises we aim to abide by.

TheMan said:

Aly said:

Sorry, I forget that you have went through more experiences than the entire population of TST put together.

I should really put you in charge tbh.

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Not entirely sure what the point of this was Aly. To me the last vestige of someone without a valid standpoint is an insult. Perhaps you would rather I just shut up and tow the party line?

I posted this on another thread, if people take issue with my life experience, that is their problem not mine. However, once you begin with insults, I have every right to then defend that. The majority of what I do here, is to contribute my thoughts and opinions to threads, in the most part making them out to be nothing more than that, based on my experiences.

What the hell else am I going to base my thoughts and opinions on exactly? Just because I choose to back them up in an evidential fashion, to try and put a point of view across, does not warrant insult.

In fact, as I pointed out in all of my posts in relation to this, I have the greatest respect for Craig, and the site, hence I choose to spend time here. That my friend is not warranted of insults.

EDIT:
Not without it's irony, I agree with James on moving this post to Guest Services ;D

There are things in regards to this site, and new members, that as a new member still (many posts or not), I think are not being taken on board I have to say.

The manner in which people with opposing, or at times, controversial views (as decided by the existing close membership) I can see putting people off.

I am a very thick skinned chap, and I have found this site extremely challenging at times. I saw another new member who left, being lauded about in the Shout Box a few days ago, I've seen new posters given short shrift. I try to be as easy as possible with new members, but happy to get stuck into the old guard who give as good as they get that's for sure.

There is however, way too much of what went on above. What precisely did I do, to deserve to be insulted? I couldn't give a hoot let's be clear, but how does that come across?

I have not had a single bad word to say against you Aly, quite the contrary in fact - so that came as a surprise I will admit. I have given you much respect for your achievements, but you find it acceptable to belittle mine?

Nice job mate.

Certain attitudes, in my opinion, need to change on this site. Ironically of course, given my initial post about how something came across (note: I did not state it as a fact just a potential perception), I think Craig from what I have seen is doing a fantastic job.

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I was being blunt and to the point, as I knew no matter what I typed would be met with several paragraphs, highlighted bold text and references to life experiences to justify counter arguments. This isn't meant as an insult, it's factual information.

For example, Dave gave you a pretty small reply, basically to confirm why the team did what the did however you replied with a lengthy posts with comments such as:

You can either take my view on board, or not, it is as straight forward as that Dave.

I read that as coming across a bit too pally with AT. You forget. I read this stuff with no bias and little experience, except that in things such as PR, Customer Relations, blah blah boring as I know.

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The application of some common sense Dave, is quite different to that of "supporting" a park which in my opinion at this time, needs a sharp prod up it's backside, with open forums such as this expressing this freely - not feeling that it has intimate links with the park that could hamper this.

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Are you a fan/enthusiast FORUM, or are you an AT supporters club?

I do not want to come across harsh here, I like Craig and everything he does here is worthy of praise in my opinion - but your post really did not take the point I made in context at all, by contesting my assertion that a decision can be right, but it's delivery better.

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This post isn't an attack on posting style, however I find it amusing that you harp on about certain things that could put off new members, when many of your own posts could be considered off putting to new members. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

So yeah, maybe my original comments can be seen as harsh, however when you read some of your comments, they are equally as harsh. (Well to me they are, but that's perhaps because I am good friends with Craig & Dave) and although you mentioned you like Craig and everything he does, some of your comments seemed to undermine the actions of TST (which Craig obviously represents).

Infact, I found you quite and argumentative and confrontational person. Take your reply to Ben as an example. He didn't mention you or reference you yet, you took his post as being aimed at you and made quite an 'insulting reply'. So yeah, it's rather confusing you can call other people rude, when you have also been rude?

Dave said:

This topic seems to have moved from one point to another and the key thing for me is the new member issue. It's something that would always come up back when we where on TT and its something I always feel passionate about because when I joined TT in 2006 the team back then and the established members where incredibly cold to new members.

I posted rarely for 3 years when I noticed the forums had become ALOT friendlier and therefore engaged with the forums and I hate it when established members are rude to new members... It just bugs me. Therefore my point is when ever a topic like this comes up my first question is IF you have seen someone be rude to any member not just a new one why are people not reporting the post.

I can only assume based on the fact our new members seem to be engaging that's its not an endemic problem but if there are any rude posters then they need reporting. We have a team of 10 people and although all the team have modding powers some of the team are focused more on the site. Considering we have a whole site to create and the forums are very popular we can't review every post by hand, this is why we have a report button.

So my main point is please if you think a post is out of line use the flag post button and tell us. We can't afford as a new community to lose any interest from fresh faces and it goes against what we want as a team and the whole reason we moved.

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That's a good question, and one that requires a culture attitude. Let's take Sams post yesterday (no offense Sam, if reading, I really wasn't that fussed lol, and you got my response) - but, as an example, I would not have reported that post. It was not that rude in fairness, but it did as Aly just has alluded to my life experiences, and how I use them in posts to point to examples.

I cannot believe for a minute, if anyone took issue with regulars here, they would dare to report it - because the site does not give off an air of welcoming, easy to post, opinions respected atmosphere.

It's very heated in here, threads go nuts with a single post - this is a great thing by the way, it's why I am here, hence I don't care and view my points quite forthrightly in return ;D

I however, am a product of the music/hospitality/customer service etc industries - all of which require thick skin. To me, it's part of the fun getting stuck in responding to these things - but I bet for everyone 1 of me, there are 10s of others who think otherwise.

I barged my way in here, grabbed a seat and sat down - some took to that, others didn't. It's who I am, I couldn't care less, but I try to be very calm and easy on the younger and newer members, as people are so familiar with each on this site - I really think that gets lost at times.

And, it is a shame, because it is as good a debating site I've ever seen!

;D

I don't know why you think that people wouldn't 'dare' report something TheMan. It may be intimidating to report something on any site if you're new but the button is there to be used. I would never hesitate to report anything if I thought it was inappropriate. Regardless of who posted it. I think most people here share that mentality.

In fact I think new members would be much more likely to click report than have a stand-off with someone established...

Regardless, I still don't see the fuss. The team made a decision which was both positive for discussion and for the site's reputation. Whilst they obviously don't have to do everything Towers tells them; it's good to remain seen in a positive light


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TheMan said:

You tell me, as a Team Member, setting an example, exactly where I have said moving this thread makes you an unfriendly bunch please?

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You haven't said quite that moving this topic makes the community unfriendly. However I would assume Ben has read the edit to your post on the previous page, as quoted below (I've just taken a few bits out to do with Aly's posts).

TheMan said:

There are things in regards to this site, and new members, that as a new member still (many posts or not), I think are not being taken on board I have to say.

The manner in which people with opposing, or at times, controversial views (as decided by the existing close membership) I can see putting people off.

I am a very thick skinned chap, and I have found this site extremely challenging at times. I saw another new member who left, being lauded about in the Shout Box a few days ago, I've seen new posters given short shrift. I try to be as easy as possible with new members, but happy to get stuck into the old guard who give as good as they get that's for sure.

There is however, way too much of what went on above. What precisely did I do, to deserve to be insulted? I couldn't give a hoot let's be clear, but how does that come across?

Certain attitudes, in my opinion, need to change on this site. Ironically of course, given my initial post about how something came across (note: I did not state it as a fact just a potential perception), I think Craig from what I have seen is doing a fantastic job.

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Now while you have not outwardly said that the community is unfriendly. You do generalise the forum as a whole having its attitudes wrong, or not going in the right direction.

As this topic concerns a topic being moved into a The Tavern, one could easily assume this snippet of your post is related to the matter in hand. So I can easily see why Ben would read that post of yours and get the impression that it is related to this topic, or even the splitting of posts.

However I believe that part of your post is something that you should address with the team directly, rather than post in a topic that is not related to the direction (and attitudes) of the community.

TheMan said:

I cannot believe for a minute, if anyone took issue with regulars here, they would dare to report it - because the site does not give off an air of welcoming, easy to post, opinions respected atmosphere.

It's very heated in here, threads go nuts with a single post - this is a great thing by the way, it's why I am here, hence I don't care and view my points quite forthrightly in return ;D

I however, am a product of the music/hospitality/customer service etc industries - all of which require thick skin. To me, it's part of the fun getting stuck in responding to these things - but I bet for everyone 1 of me, there are 10s of others who think otherwise.

I barged my way in here, grabbed a seat and sat down - some took to that, others didn't. It's who I am, I couldn't care less, but I try to be very calm and easy on the younger and newer members, as people are so familiar with each on this site - I really think that gets lost at times.

And, it is a shame, because it is as good a debating site I've ever seen!

;D

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Again your bringing in this idea that the site is unfriendly yet others above say it is friendly, what I want are examples. Sams post yesterday is not the best example as you are now almost 2 months here which is 1 third the sites life time. You have a high post count so I can't be sure that Sams post to you is equivalent to how he would post to a new member.

So here we have conflicting opinions, you say the site is unfriendly but others say it is friendly. Word against word doesn't help we need examples so we need people to flag posts if these things happen.

We have no issue these thoughts been expressed (a lot of sites would have deleted these posts) but we need actual examples to back the cause.

Are you kidding me Aly or what?

You dismiss how many times I say I respect the site, Craig his work etc, point out you're mates, yet again point out that I use my life experience as examples, then suggest Ben was not understanding what was going on?

I quoted, ad verbatim what was said Aly, and replied in detail piece by piece which I am entitled to do, and will do.

This post was moved here, my post, it is the first one in the topic, it is hardly difficult to get a grip on what my opinions are and why, as I have stated them multiple times.

Quoting, using life experience, responding section by section, is not a bad forum etiquette.

You even mention Dave's comment which is ludicrous! I was responding pointing out, after being questioned as to how I can agree with the statement but call it bias at the same time.

I then went on to say, I did agree with the what was said, but that to a new member it could come across as being a bit too pally with towers. What exactly is wrong with that, and how is that rude? I was asked a question, that I went into great detail to then explain point by point. Making sure it was known, I had no issues at all with what had happened.

I've explained this many times over now.

Also, in response, you show me where I have insulted anyone. I go out of my way to express that I respect everyone's opinions - even those I do not agree with. So quote me, like I can you, where I have done anything other than answer questions, and defend my right to opinion and post.

Oh, and remember unlike those in your last post, to keep them in context please, what they are in response to might help.


You cannot take away from the fact this happens more than it should. If you are such an experienced member Aly, then you should be setting a far better example.

If my views/posts and contributions are not appreciated on this site, then you know what to suggest don't you Aly.

I don't want this topic turning into an argument between 2 people please take that to PM, keep this topic to the overall issue.

Dave said:

TheMan said:

I cannot believe for a minute, if anyone took issue with regulars here, they would dare to report it - because the site does not give off an air of welcoming, easy to post, opinions respected atmosphere.

It's very heated in here, threads go nuts with a single post - this is a great thing by the way, it's why I am here, hence I don't care and view my points quite forthrightly in return ;D

I however, am a product of the music/hospitality/customer service etc industries - all of which require thick skin. To me, it's part of the fun getting stuck in responding to these things - but I bet for everyone 1 of me, there are 10s of others who think otherwise.

I barged my way in here, grabbed a seat and sat down - some took to that, others didn't. It's who I am, I couldn't care less, but I try to be very calm and easy on the younger and newer members, as people are so familiar with each on this site - I really think that gets lost at times.

And, it is a shame, because it is as good a debating site I've ever seen!

;D

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Again your bringing in this idea that the site is unfriendly yet others above say it is friendly, what I want are examples. Sams post yesterday is not the best example as you are now almost 2 months here which is 1 third the sites life time. You have a high post count so I can't be sure that Sams post to you is equivalent to how he would post to a new member.

So here we have conflicting opinions, you say the site is unfriendly but others say it is friendly. Word against word doesn't help we need examples so we need people to flag posts if these things happen.

We have no issue these thoughts been expressed (a lot of sites would have deleted these posts) but we need actual examples to back the cause.

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They are fair comments Dave. I do think saying 1/3rd of the sites life is a little, well political given that it is a split from another site of notable age and experience. The pages might be new, but the friendships etc are not. I shall take that with a pinch of salt.

I am not going to trawl through endless posts to pick up examples of what has happened, what I will do however, is be far more vigilant and expressive moving forward.

It's also a cop out really in some respects, because I don't mind rolling my sleeves up for a good debate - but my concern remains, and perhaps diogos idea from earlier, about keeping the meatier stuff in a separate forum could actually be a good idea.

Diogo's idea has benefits but we do want to keep as much of the forum as open as possible for everyone but its an idea we will look at.

Why should there be a members only forum for debating though? Or for 'meaty' topics? Who decides what has to go in there? What does that say about the site?

You've suggested the community can seem quite closed but doing something like that would close it off even more...

I'm only still posting in this thread because, as a user of this site, I find this whole 'issue' ridiculous. It's such a non-issue! The team made a sound judgement, which by everyone but you has been well received. I'm not even sure what this discussion is about any more :/


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