2017/18: SW8 Speculation

[LiamC]

Could we not be optimistic that something goes on the Flume site for 2017 and then the woodie that was rumoured to have a station in Forbidden Valley come in 2018?

Or am I just too optimistic

I think that's far too optimistic. There's so much that needs to be done to get something open in that short space of time. Plans submitted, approved, ground work starting, construction starts, completion, testing, opening. Plus they haven't even begun to dismantle The Flume yet. If they were to go for 2017 it'd be so rushed it would end up worse than The Smiler in the end.

 

[Spike]

Changed the thread title to 2018 as there's not even a small chance that this will be for next year!

Just out of interest, how do you know it won't be next year?

Genuine question, not meant to be "well hoooow do youuuu knoooow" lol

 

[Sammy]

Personally I would say, seeing as we are already mid way through March, the flume is still standing and no plans have been seen yet (if indeed they do plan on using the woodland) that it's pretty much a given this will be 2018.

The original plans for 2017 were in the valley and they went in early last year, then got shelved mid season. I wouldn't personally say 6 months was enough time to develop something SW worthy for the flumes GDO site.

Well, that's my opinion anyway, I could be wrong!

 

[Rob]

Could we not be optimistic that something goes on the Flume site for 2017 and then the woodie that was rumoured to have a station in Forbidden Valley come in 2018?

Or am I just too optimistic

You could be, but you'd end up being disappointed!

SW8 is going to be on The Flume site it seems, and SW8 would be a major CAPEX project. There won't be major investments in both 2017 and 2018. Also it's too late in the day in terms of gaining planning permission for a major project in 2017.

EDIT:

Just out of interest, how do you know it won't be next year?

Genuine question, not meant to be "well hoooow do youuuu knoooow" lol

I don't know for sure, it's just extremely late for it to be next year. Original 2017 plans were scrapped following The Smiler incident and if past SWs are to go by planning permission for an SW8 in 2017 would have been submitted around December 2015. Plus Merlin have said that Heide-Park are getting the major CAPEX in 2017 rather than 2018 as originally scheduled.

 

[Imagination]

I really hope this SW we see a break away from rollercoasters. They have a great line-up as it is, but their variety of other experiences are dwindling. Someone mentioned Poseidon's Fury from IoA...whilst I would adore an experience similar to that, Towers simply don't have the budgets or the faith in themselves to pull off even a half decent ride. Plus with the amount of staff, effects and actors an experience like that would requir it would simply be too much of a challenge - even more so now with the closures of some of the most experience and story led attractions currently on park.

SW8 has the potential to be so much - but the experience has to be phenomenal and on-point. Merlin/Alton have time and time again displayed an anxiety towards a story led experience or ride (Sub:Terra, Krake Lebt, Saw:Alive, Inferis, CatCF, Zufari) which in turn is half hearted and results in reduce operation periods or closures. I know the listed rides above aren't all but that's because those are ones they've recently tried an alternative experience that isn't 4D or track led and they've been a let down.

If Derren's Ghost Train is a success, then I hope Merlin begin to build confidence in this area of experiences - but not limit themselves to a dark/bleak story and theme.

The flume is an interesting area for an SW. It could lead to a few different options but I don't feel it should lead to another coaster. Why? The simple answer is this: they're tiring out their USP. But looking in to it further we already have a great variety of coasters each offering very different experiences. Why then should they decide to make a 16 looper or something ridiculous to entice the public? They shouldn't. Smiler wasn't the original planned SW and it was a mess in terms of construction. The only good part to the Smiler was the strong brand and suitable marketing.

They need to stop living up to this world first tag for the sake of it - get back to the drawing board. What direction are different rides in the world going in? We've got VR, we don't need to revisit this, so what we need is a game changer for the UK...

Towers need to explore some technologies not yet seen in UK parks. If they are to be the UK's leading park or the gem in Merlin's crown - then start acting like it. What is it that makes other European and international parks good? Is it the flawless presentation? (yes, we're working on that with TLC project). Immersive areas? (we've lost that since the 90's slowly, work on that). Rich rides/areas full of story and discovery? (Ahh...we've lost that too). But ultimate its cohesion and strong development for the entire project they need to work in - from path bins, aesthetic elements, right down to the ride interacting with the guest and the surroundings. Wild Asia should have been a gentle lead in the right direction with interaction from standard themed elements, atmosphere and the true redesigning of an area - not a lazy, half hearted attempt of an overlay (yes Dark Forest, I mean you).

They need to explore every element of this plan to make it a "ground breaking" experience not just grounbreaking in ride elements/hardware. It's not enough any more to bung a massive coaster in and expect crowds to go crazy. People say all the GP or their friends want is a new coaster...but actually they're only saying this because in this country it's all we're used to, we haven't got theme parks wow-ing us with an entire area or a ride from queueline to exit giving us such an immersive experience. We've never explored a whole other level to ride experiences and it's delivery other than the tag "World First".

So what should we actually expect?

Well, we should expect an entire area which is rich, rides which cause us to marvel at the amazing technology used within, along with the experience and the entire magical escapism presented not just by the ride but by it's surroundings too.

Get real, bring back the intrigue, the suspense and the excitement that used to be seen from years gone by. Sop telling us the entire ride cost 18 million pound coaster because it didn't - why include money from the marketing drive to concrete support foundations?

The GP DO listen to that, then suddenly you scratch your heads if it wasn't as amazing as tthe GP hoped for so you set-up for a fail, getting yourself into this viscous cycle that makes you only want to attempt big budgets on rollercoasters because you haven't tackled other non-coaster experiences correctly in the past.

It's over hype, and time and time again it happens. Instead, start actually realising that as the UK's best theme park that you have to have faith, you have to push for bigger and better budgets, you have to trust that you can pull off a decent non-coaster SW if you just stop wasting money and using language that causes confusion or over-hype. There's elements mentioned that are in and out of Alton's control - but all of those elements in this last paragraph Merlin do have control in.

Why do dark rides or story led experiences work so well but not in the Merlin company? Funny that...I think the answer is staring us in the face.

I'm not pulling Towers apart. I just know they have so much potential - it's Merlin who need look at themselves and the structure for which the studios use to provide service, delivery, trust and quality to their parks.

SW8 needs to be decent and it needs to reassure us that Alton Towers firmly remains as one of the top UK parks and the industry leader in the UK.

 

[MattyH]

Lets not forget, Blackpool are getting a new coaster in 2018, whatever this is has to compete with that!

 

[phildenholm]

Personally I would say, seeing as we are already mid way through March, the flume is still standing and no plans have been seen yet (if indeed they do plan on using the woodland) that it's pretty much a given this will be 2018.

The original plans for 2017 were in the valley and they went in early last year, then got shelved mid season. I wouldn't personally say 6 months was enough time to develop something SW worthy for the flumes GDO site.

Well, that's my opinion anyway, I could be wrong!

It's travelers day a week on Sunday they could have the flume down and off site by sunset!

 

[LiamC]

Lets not forget, Blackpool are getting a new coaster in 2018, whatever this is has to compete with that!

Good point. It's also worth remembering that their last two major, original rides (Big One and Valhalla) were substantial investments and quite revolutionary at the time. And they are still (well, Valhalla) held in high regard amongst the enthusiast community and general public alike.

 

[D4n]

Changed the thread title to 2018 as there's not even a small chance that this will be for next year!

Not even a small chance? Surely a 2017 mid-season opening makes perfect sense, considering past struggles to meet "opening day" deadlines? I certainly wouldn't place that beyond the realms of possibility, unless you know something that we don't.

Advertising this early for an attraction not opening until 2018 would surely be likely to convince customers who visit at the park this year to not bother next year, and wait for the new attraction to open? Counter-productive.

 

[Dar]

Considering they've still got to take the flume down, safely, and prepare the ground and get planning permission etc., it seems reasonable that this won't open until 2018 and that Towers have learnt from past mistakes, and overseas parks, that leaving it until the last possible moment doesn't work.

 

[LiamC]

Not even a small chance? Surely a 2017 mid-season opening makes perfect sense, considering past struggles to meet "opening day" deadlines? I certainly wouldn't place that beyond the realms of possibility, unless you know something that we don't.

Advertising this early for an attraction not opening until 2018 would surely be likely to convince customers who visit at the park this year to not bother next year, and wait for the new attraction to open? Counter-productive.

A mid season opening leaves them in the same position as when they did The Smiler in terms of getting stuff sorted and in place on time. Probably even less actually. And look how that ended up.

 

[D4n]

Considering they've still got to take the flume down, safely, and prepare the ground and get planning permission etc., it seems reasonable that this won't open until 2018 and that Towers have learnt from past mistakes, and overseas parks, that leaving it until the last possible moment doesn't work.

It would make sense for them to start planning an attraction for 2018 now, absolutely... but actually advertising it at the park as their next big thing, so far in advance? I don't understand the logic behind that. Like I said, I think it will put a lot of semi-regular visitors off going next season.

 

[Tom]

All I know is that in response to a direct question of investment at Alton Towers following the Smiler crash, Merlin said that there would be no change to their four-year major capital expenditure cycle.

Also, the tentative planning query put in last year was to clarify whether or not an environmental impact assessment would be needed, and the answer was that it wouldn't. That application stated that it would be 75 metres from that listed tower thing in the gardens, and that potentially puts it on the Flume site. The space between the Flume entrance and the northern reaches of Forbidden Valley is only a few hundred metres.

All I'm saying is that there is no evidence to suggest that the tentative application that went in last year wasn't for this ride, and I'm suggesting that we may have seen nothing else since because there is no need for a full application. The lack of demolition of the Flume would apply pressure to 2017 I guess, but to me something next year is a possibility, particularly since we are seeing a later-season opening strategy for a major ride for the first time under Merlin in the new thing at Thorpe Park.

Finally, I don't believe we have seen, or would see, signage for a new ride coming soon across two entire seasons before it opens? The park needs something new and major now more than ever to bring people back in, and any sound businessman would accept that.

 

[TheMan]

Seems absurd to advertise now for 2018. Absolutely absurd.

 

[BarryZola]

It does seem a little strange to be honest, but I can also understand the reasons given by some members as to why it is likely to be for 2018.

Strange, but I'm just glad that they do actually have a definite plan in place

 

[Rob]

Not even a small chance? Surely a 2017 mid-season opening makes perfect sense, considering past struggles to meet "opening day" deadlines? I certainly wouldn't place that beyond the realms of possibility, unless you know something that we don't.

Advertising this early for an attraction not opening until 2018 would surely be likely to convince customers who visit at the park this year to not bother next year, and wait for the new attraction to open? Counter-productive.

It typically takes around 3 months for a major attraction at Towers to get planning permission (time from when the application is recieved to when a decision is made). The whole process actually took 11 months for Thirteen. But let's say around 3 to 4 months. If they submitted an application within the next week, the earliest that they would get planning permission is around the end of June, going into July. But if the process got drawn out for whatever reason there is little capacity to make up time. Either way it doesn't allow much time for implementing a major new ride for 2017.

One of Towers' biggest flaws with recent new attractions is rushing them through leading to various compromises that have cost a fair whack of money. You'd think they've learnt. If SW8 was going to be in 2017 this would be the latest they have ever left it for submitting a planning application for a major project.

It is very early to advertise for 2018 I agree. I think they are merely trying to show people that there are reasons for closed rides, even if their replacements are not imminent.

And as I have said before, Merlin themselves have stated that Heide-Park is getting the major investment in 2017 rather than in 2018 as originally planned. With original SW8 plans in Forbidden Valley being cancelled a fair way down the line after last June it makes logical sense for Merlin to have swapped things with Heide and Alton.

2017 is possible for SW8, but I would be shocked if it was to open then.

 

[Stuntman707]

Looks like Mutiny Bay will be extended and have a large ride which is cool. It felt like last season, it had become the "alleyway of vending machines". I do hope they drop the "World First" obsession and just make a unique and compelling ride with some new technology. The reason Nemesis is my favourite is because every inch of that ride feels so well themed and immersive.

 

[Leah]

Seems absurd to advertise now for 2018. Absolutely absurd.

While I know exactly where you're coming from with this, is this really advertising the ride so much as telling us that the flume has gone for a reason. Lots of people have said how bad it is that the flume has gone, so this (like tlc) is really just telling people somethings going on.

 

[BarryZola]

While I know exactly where you're coming from with this, is this really advertising the ride so much as telling us that the flume has gone for a reason. Lots of people have said how bad it is that the flume has gone, so this (like tlc) is really just telling people somethings going on.

I believe you are probably right Leah.

 

[Martin]

The Flume will probably take a while to disassemble and depending on what the replacement is going to be like, preparation could take a long time, so they may as well put something up letting people know something new is coming eventually rather than leaving it until next season, people will either be annoyed The Flume is gone or work out there's a new ride coming anyway.

Putting "Coming 2018" would be nice if that's when it's opening but I guess doing that would make people less likely to visit in 2017, or maybe they don't know for sure if it will be 2018 yet.