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2021: General Discussion

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I don’t think The Smiler is anywhere near as universally loved as Nemesis; as much as the ride has a large number of fans, not too many seem to rate the ride quite as highly as Nemesis, and there are an equal number of people who absolutely despise it.

Wicker Man, while perhaps more universally liked than Smiler, doesn’t really have many people who absolutely love it (I’m one of the few who does). Most seem to like it, but not excessively so. While I wouldn’t say I’ve heard anyone say that they absolutely despise Wicker Man, there are a notable number who aren’t that enamoured with it.

Rightly or wrongly, I think Alton’s coaster selection would be viewed with considerably less interest, especially among enthusiasts abroad, if it didn’t have Nemesis within it. I don’t think any of the other coasters at Alton have anywhere near the same level of popularity among enthusiasts worldwide. Heck, I don’t think any of the other coasters within the entire UK have anywhere near the same level of popularity among enthusiasts worldwide.

To put things into some perspective; Captain Coaster’s ranking of the highest rated coasters by members of that site puts Nemesis at #47 in the world. The next Alton Towers coaster to make it in is Galactica, all the way down at #170: https://captaincoaster.com/en/ranki...s[manufacturer]=&filters[openingDate]=&page=1

The only other UK coaster to even make it into the top 100 is Icon, just squeezing in at #92. With that in mind, I think it’s fair to say that Nemesis is the UK’s most popular coaster among enthusiasts by a significant margin, and Alton Towers’ most popular coaster among enthusiasts by an even more significant margin.

If anyone’s interested, CC’s ranking of Alton Towers’ coasters is as follows:
  1. Nemesis (#1 in the UK, #47 in the world, average rating of 94.9%)
  2. Galactica (#4 in the UK, #170 in the world, average rating of 83.9%)
  3. The Smiler (#5 in the UK, #171 in the world, average rating of 83.9%)
  4. Oblivion (#8 in the UK, #208 in the world, average rating of 80.9%)
  5. Wicker Man (#11 in the UK, #253 in the world, average rating of 76.4%)
  6. Rita (#13 in the UK, #300 in the world, average rating of 70.9%)
  7. Thirteen (#14 in the UK, #311 in the world, average rating of 69.8%)
  8. Spinball Whizzer (#21 in the UK, #471 in the world, average rating of 57.4%)
  9. Runaway Mine Train (#43 in the UK, #695 in the world, average rating of 38.7%)
Octonauts isn’t ranked due to it being listed as a kiddie coaster.

So with this in mind, Nemesis outweighs any other coaster at Towers in terms of average rating by a whole 11%. For clarity, 20% = 1 star under this system, so a 100% score is an average rating of 5 stars.
 
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Matt N said:
I don’t think The Smiler is anywhere near as universally loved as Nemesis; as much as the ride has a large number of fans, not too many seem to rate the ride quite as highly as Nemesis, and there are an equal number of people who absolutely despise it.
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You've got to remember though that The Smiler is only 8 years old and so hasn't had the chance to build up a long term following like Nemesis has.

To compare fairly you really need to go back to 2002 when Nemesis was 8 and see what the level of love for Nemesis there was then - I bet it was at a similar level to what the Smiler is now. It could've been at a higher level but I would put a lot of that down to the fact that many people may not have been able to travel around the world to other theme parks as easily as they can today meaning they didn't get to experience other coasters that were as good as or better than Nemesis. As a consequence, (and of course because of the ride experience itself) Nemesis became the best in the UK for many.

Remember, that those teenagers and young adults who were blown away by Nemesis in 1994 are now - dare I say it - middle-aged with families themselves (and I include myself in this group). We've all had 27 years to ride and re-ride Nemesis and fall in love with it a little bit more each time. Couple with this the fact that it was a first for almost everyone who rode it (it being an inverted coaster), and how intense it was compared to other coasters at the time and you have a near instant love for the ride that stays with people for years to come.

The Smiler on the other hand, as awesome as it is, is not a first for most; it is after all just another coaster that - other than it's intricate layout and intensity - is the same or similar as many others around the country, and many people will have ridden those other coasters - let's face it, if you've been to Thorpe, you've probably ridden Saw.

Come back to this post in 19 years time when the Smiler is 27 and we can discuss the level of love for it! If it still around, I bet there will be middle aged people talking about the Smiler and their love for it 27 years after it opened in the same way that people are talking about their love for Nemesis today!!
 
Steve74 said:
You've got to remember though that The Smiler is only 8 years old and so hasn't had the chance to build up a long term following like Nemesis has.

To compare fairly you really need to go back to 2002 when Nemesis was 8 and see what the level of love for Nemesis there was then - I bet it was at a similar level to what the Smiler is now. It could've been at a higher level but I would put a lot of that down to the fact that many people may not have been able to travel around the world to other theme parks as easily as they can today meaning they didn't get to experience other coasters that were as good as or better than Nemesis. As a consequence, (and of course because of the ride experience itself) Nemesis became the best in the UK for many.

Remember, that those teenagers and young adults who were blown away by Nemesis in 1994 are now - dare I say it - middle-aged with families themselves (and I include myself in this group). We've all had 27 years to ride and re-ride Nemesis and fall in love with it a little bit more each time. Couple with this the fact that it was a first for almost everyone who rode it (it being an inverted coaster), and how intense it was compared to other coasters at the time and you have a near instant love for the ride that stays with people for years to come.

The Smiler on the other hand, as awesome as it is, is not a first for most; it is after all just another coaster that - other than it's intricate layout and intensity - is the same or similar as many others around the country, and many people will have ridden those other coasters - let's face it, if you've been to Thorpe, you've probably ridden Saw.

Come back to this post in 19 years time when the Smiler is 27 and we can discuss the level of love for it! If it still around, I bet there will be middle aged people talking about the Smiler and their love for it 27 years after it opened in the same way that people are talking about their love for Nemesis today!!
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But the thing to remember, though, is that there are many, many rides abroad that have gained a more universal fan following than even Nemesis in a fraction of the time.

Look at rides like Steel Vengeance, for instance; it opened in 2018, 24 years after Nemesis, and tops that poll I posted above. Taiga, opened in 2019, is #2. Hakugei, opened in 2019, is #3.

In terms of Nemesis still making loads of top 25 lists and polls; it is somewhat of an outlier among older coasters in that regard. It’s often the highest rated coaster built pre-2000 in a number of polls, and the coasters it’s accompanied by are often at least 10 years younger, probably closer to 20-25 years younger these days.
 
For me personally, being only 23, The Smiler was the first ride that I came off and was like "wow" - so I see what you're saying, I think The Smiler has that sentiment already for me that Nemesis does for others, as the first time I rode The Smiler was when I was 15, so it's had that special hold for me over the past 8 years. I can only imagine I'll grow to love it even more as I get older.
 
In 2007 Nemesis was rated 6th worldwide in the Mitch Hawker steel coaster poll. I'm sure that it may have even got higher in the rankings in other years but I'm struggling to find any other results.

Over the last 10 years we've been over-saturated with new RMC and Intamin Blitz coasters (not that that's a bad thing) which has pushed it down in the polls as it simply isn't on the same level as some of these new coasters worldwide.

I feel like if the Smiler had been opened 20 years ago it similarly would've been rated highly worldwide, but it falls into obscurity when compared to what else has opened over the last 10 years. That being said it is a considerable coaster compared to what else is on offer in the UK, but lacks the historical factor of Nemesis which makes it so world-renowned.

Personally given the choice I prefer Nemesis. These days when I go on park I'm only bothered about going on Nemi and Wicker Man, the rest of my time will be spent in the bar.
 
Wanted to join the debate -

I think whilst we're on the topic of how old Nemesis is compared to other rides we can look at The Corkscrew which was 28 years old before they closed it down and created Th13teen. Nemesis is now pushing 27 years so in terms of time scale and now all these faults going on, I sadly think that in the next few years we may see Nemesis go.

I completely understand that it's one of the talking points about the park, but so was Corkscrew when it was at it's prime and I truly believe that Smiler will become the new Nemesis before 2030 hits. Even potential for Wicker to become a statement.

I think a good example of changes I can see happening are rides being 'redone' as in a new theme, new name etc although the same track, exactly what happened with Air. It's essentially still Air with a few added bits, I can see that happening with Rita in the next 10 years or so. Probably name it something daft like 'Need4Speed' and paint it another colour.

My personal favourite ride in the whole park was Ripsaw and I was gutted when they got rid of it. I still to this day do not understand why. 90% of the park is pure rollercoaster which okay, I understand as it's a theme park but Ripsaw really added another type of thrill into the park, that is now not there. They did it again with Sub-Terra and then they scrapped that too. I know you go for rollercoasters, but I also want rides that aren't purely track based (such as Hex)
 
pluk said:
I'm guessing you have a very limited experience of parks outside the UK? Yet again, your inability to consider anything from anyone else's perspective.

Both are bang average coasters.
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I literally said I respect everyone has different opinions.
 
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CherryBerry17 said:
I think whilst we're on the topic of how old Nemesis is compared to other rides we can look at The Corkscrew which was 28 years old before they closed it down and created Th13teen. Nemesis is now pushing 27 years so in terms of time scale and now all these faults going on, I sadly think that in the next few years we may see Nemesis go.
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Corkscrew was a simple coaster that could be built on any old bit of flat concrete. It was fairly unique in 1980 but now nothing special at all. Nemesis however is custom designed to fit in that location, it is still 27 years on quite unique. There might be plenty of other B&M inverted coasters but none will have the same layout as Nemesis because of the way it uses the landscape.

CherryBerry17 said:
My personal favourite ride in the whole park was Ripsaw and I was gutted when they got rid of it. I still to this day do not understand why. 90% of the park is pure rollercoaster which okay, I understand as it's a theme park but Ripsaw really added another type of thrill into the park, that is now not there.
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I think Ripsaw was getting beyond repair and wasn't as popular as it used to be, but I agree it should have been replaced immediately.
 
Ethan said:
I literally said I respect everyone has different opinions. Be quiet already
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No need to be rude just because you're being called out for once again dismissing the fact that other people have opinions different to your own. Compared to other coasters around the world, both the smiler and wicker man are definitely nothing special. Both have unique themes and wicker man definitely plays with its theme extremely well, elevating it from a mid-tier family GCI to one of the best rides in the country (in my opinion, at least).

The smiler on the other hand, while it has a great concept for a theme, falls short of its various ideas in several departments. It rides basically the same as every other thrill Gerstlauer, at least when compared to what I've ridden. It's rough, it's dirty and cheaply themed and I'd argue that the main reason as to why it is so popular globally is due to the notoriety surrounding the ride post 2015, almost elevating it to a bit of a dark tourist destination. Of course there is also the enthusiast appeal of it having the most inversions in the world for the time being, but the ride simply doesn't hold up against other top thrill coasters because the inversions are all that the ride has going for it and most of them aren't even fun because they hurt like hell.

Of course, all of the above is just my opinion and my points are no more valid than anyone else's ;)
 
Ethan said:
I said I respect others have different opinions. How is that dismissing others opinions? That makes no sense.
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Let me break it down to avoid confusion:

Ethan said:
I respect everyone has different opinions but how can anyone say the smiler and wicker man are average
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You say "I respect everyone has different opinions" but then go on to say "how can anyone say The Smiler and Wicker Man are average", therefore dismissing another person's opinion for saying they are average because you think they are good.

Does that make sense?
 
I think you have to consider a non-UK perspective. It's all very well and good for us as the UK parks are on our doorstep and we can hit them fairly easily and regularly.

Imagine now that you live in the USA. Consider the time you need to take off work is limited (and considerably less than you get in Europe, typically 10 days per year). It also costs a lot of money to get here with flights, accommodation, travel, park tickets etc. Now with that mindset you have to focus where in the world you want to travel and what you want to do. You will clearly prioritise bucket list coasters and only the best will make the cut.

It's similar to planning a holiday across Europe or USA from the UK. Most people wouldn't be drawn to a place with only mediocre coasters when there's other places with renowned coasters that you haven't done yet.

I imagine Wicker Man would not be a bucket list coaster for most people, whereas Nemesis and The Smiler might be.
 
Josh said:
Let me break it down to avoid confusion:



You say "I respect everyone has different opinions" but then go on to say "how can anyone say The Smiler and Wicker Man are average", therefore dismissing another person's opinion for saying they are average because you think they are good.

Does that make sense?
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How is that any different to people telling me that I must have a lack of coaster experience as they're average compared to other coasters abroad. That's shutting down my opinion so same thing
 
Ethan said:
I literally said I respect everyone has different opinions.
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Then literally questioned how anyone could have a different opinion to you about two rides, having qualified your respect of others opinions with a 'but', which is not to respect them at all.
 
Ethan said:
How is that any different to people telling me that I must have a lack of coaster experience as they're average compared to other coasters abroad. That's shutting down my opinion so same thing
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It is different because no one is telling you they can't understand why you like The Smiler or Wicker Man so much, simply querying whether you have experience of coasters outside the UK.

They are just trying to highlight why coasters like The Smiler and Wicker Man are considered average to some people compared to coasters elsewhere. I love Wicker Man, but compared to let's say, Wodan, it most certainly is average.

So rather than dismissing your opinion, they are trying to better justify other people's opinions to try and give you more context so you don't dismiss them.
 
pluk said:
Then literally questioned how anyone could have a different opinion to you about two rides, having qualified your respect of others opinions with a 'but', which is not to respect them at all.
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Well everyone disagrees with my opinion anyway and have made it obvious by assuring me that they're average. So be it we disagree that's the end of it
 
I think we all need to take deep breath of fresh air and relax! We all have different opinions; it is totally fine to think that Wicker Man is the best thing since sliced bread or that it is an complete and utter abomination (or something inbetween perhaps).

And anyway, I am usnsure as to how much of the above discussion relates to the 2021 season at Alton Towers, so back on topic please.

Thanks!
 
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