• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

2023: General Discussion

Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
I think it depends what you want from an experience at a theme park really. Shows, entertainment and theming you’d go for Disney and Universal. If you were just interested in thrill rides you’d still go to Thorpe and Towers. I know Universal have proven they can deliver on the thrill way above the level of Merlin with Velocicoaster, but I doubt we’d see anything that good in this country
 
This whole notion that all the recent investments into the Merlin parks are because of a reaction to Universal coming to the UK are something I'm not sure about.

Unless they knew about Universal coming long before the news became public, I assume the recent higher than normal investment was over new management at Merlin who were more keen on splashing the cash out. It might just be a coincidence that they are spending more just as Universal are hovering overhead.

Then again, if this is a reaction to Universal even before a shovel has been placed into the ground, Lord knows how Merlin will react when it becomes apparent Universal are definitely setting up shop. Come to think of it, in those on the insiders knew about Universal then maybe that's why Drayton have invested too in preparation for what might he coming?

Oddly enough, this all does bare a striking resemblance in the run up prior to the opening of Disneyland Paris I'm which many parks around Europe and with Towers were throwing money out in 1992 as with Haunted House and KC to prepare themselves for what they felt would be a giant taking their footfall which ofc never happened as DLP flopped. Still, Lightning could be striking twice here though this time Universal might succeed were Disney failed.
 
I find it very hard to believe the recent spending by Merlin is in anyway connected to Universal. Even if they have heard this info within the industry, there is little business sense in spending millions on something that might happen. Universal have themselves stated this is a long way from being confirmed, why would Merlin spend money before it was a dead certainty that new competition was coming?

Not to mention the fact that planning and budgeting for the attractions we are seeing built now will have been in the works for years, these things take time.

This uplift in spending is a a result of the company coming off the stock market and into private ownership, which itself was driven by the recognition that the short termism caused by being a public company was severely limiting the investments made to their attractions.
 
I agree I don’t think there’s a connection between the Universal announcement and the investment this year at UK Merlin parks. Doubt this new Universal park will even open until at least end of the decade so Merlin have plenty of time to sort things out and up their game. Even so I don’t think Universal will be the downfall for Towers because with world class rides like Nemesis, Curse at Alton and Smiler I can’t see Universal sweeping them to the side
 
Last edited:
AT86 said:
This uplift in spending is a a result of the company coming off the stock market and into private ownership
Click to expand...
Quite amusingly this is usually the opposite of what happens when private equity gets involved and takes a company private again. It hasn't been the case here, and I'm thankful for it, but it's definitely what happened with Merlin 1.0. I can only presume that Blackstone has either learned from their mistakes from the first time around, or Kirkbi are calling the shots.

Here's a fun podcast episode about how private equity firms usually behave with the companies they have a controlling interest in: - https://freakonomics.com/podcast/are-private-equity-firms-plundering-the-u-s-economy/
 
If/when the Universal park does happen, ride wise Alton Towers is in a good position. Entertainment is a big area which needs investment, and of course general upkeep/fixing all the rotting away areas is something that needs sorting.

Any signs of investment over this closed season seems to be more in response to a change in management and maybe a change in culture within Merlin.
 
Have we actually seen any up left in spending at Merlin?

It all seems pretty much business as usual from what I can see. Little increases there, corresponding cut elsewhere.

Even if you look at something like The Curse, as per the norm at Merlin, the project wasn't given a big enough budget from the outset, so they had to go back in later and 'fix' a big gap in the middle of the ride.
 
Squiggs said:
Have we actually seen any up left in spending at Merlin?

It all seems pretty much business as usual from what I can see. Little increases there, corresponding cut elsewhere.

Even if you look at something like The Curse, as per the norm at Merlin, the project wasn't given a big enough budget from the outset, so they had to go back in later and 'fix' a big gap in the middle of the ride.
Click to expand...
I’d argue that having multiple large CAPEX projects either under construction or in the pipeline at Alton Towers is unusual. We currently have the Nemesis retrack and Project Horizon on the go, which would have been totally unprecedented a few years back.

Chessington is also getting quite a bit more than it has in some time in the form of Mandrill Mayhem closely followed by the waterpark. Again, that’s a lot of money being put into a park that didn’t see an awful lot of major investment in the years leading up to 2023.

Admittedly, Thorpe hasn’t yet seen much of a CAPEX uplift other than Hyperia, but I think there’s still time with that one.

Also, we’re seeing a lot of spend on things like restoration across the parks compared to usual. For example, Thorpe Park is doing a lot of beautifying this off-season, Chessington did quite a bit last off-season, and Alton Towers has also been doing a few bits.
 
Towers struggle to keep the Monorail, Skyride and Hex running on a regular basis. Project Horizon seems to have gone quiet. They can't be bothered to pay a wage that attracts permanent talented techies in sufficient numbers to get all of the rides open on time. The opening hours are hardly overly generous to the point of sucking in new and lasting customers. The events are underwhelming. Basically, pretty much everything is still being run on a shoestring like it has been for the past decade or so, apart from the odd capex project (currently Nemesis). I find it hard to believe that they'll go out and spend 100s of millions more just in-case someone may or may not open a new theme park in 10 years time.
 
Matt N said:
I’d argue that having multiple large CAPEX projects either under construction or in the pipeline at Alton Towers is unusual. We currently have the Nemesis retrack and Project Horizon on the go, which would have been totally unprecedented a few years back.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it’s that unusual to have one ride almost complete and another coming in two years. Yes they are both fairly large projects but two years apart isn’t too strange.
 
Squiggs said:
So they had to go back in later and 'fix' a big gap in the middle of the ride.
Click to expand...

Not something you'd have seen previously though? Smiler, 13 and even WM to an extent were installed and not touched since in terms of anything looked after.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ash
If Alton continue to get suitable funding from Merlin, invest in new thrill & support rides then they will be in a good position. More importantly they need to look after the rides they have & maintain them, keep them painted, no rotting stations like on Oblivion etc. And by keeping things painted, I don't just mean using the cheap job-lot of purple and green paint they have on building frontages. Using Universal as an example, pre-pandemic we were there and some refurbishment work was going on in Suess Landing - this refurbishment included painting and they had at least 20 different colour paint pots in use.

I do agree that Bianca seems to be a move in the right direction for Alton Towers, coupled with the new owners of Merlin / funding being made available, as opposed to going to shareholders. A lot needs fixing at Towers - those of us who have worked there and seen some of the behind the scenes "infrastructure" will know it dates back to when John Broome was in charge.

Alton Towers / Merlin have got a probably got the best part of 8yrs until Universal could be a reality & threat. They [Universal] have bought the land, but are still considering their options. The planning process for a new park will certainly be a protracted one & will end up going to appeal & then possibly being called-in by the Secretary of State. There will, without doubt be a good band of local NIMBY's who won't want the Universal park for varying reasons (normally destruction of natural habitat / traffic / roads infrastructure etc). Epic Universe construction started in 2019 & it's due to open in 2025 (admittedly work did stop for a year due to Covid pandemic). So a protracted planning process + a 5yr build. Towers are safe for the time being but should not be complacent. Universal would build highly immersive thrill rides & attractions like at their other parks & they have the IP rights for Harry Potter, which is a licence to print money.

A good case study / example to use on the likely length of the planning process is Center Parcs Woburn (as the local planning authority was Central Bedfordshire Council**, so possibly the same one Universal will have to deal with). Center Parcs announced the project in 2004, with plans to open in 2008. They spent £5m on just getting the plans approved (lots of local NIMBY's had the planning application called-in to the Secretary of State). The village opened in mid-2014, so ever so slightly delayed. NB: ** = this is what the council is called now, it wasn't at the time of the application - there have been local authority changes in Bedfordshire.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't surprise me if they replaced the train with the new style that has individual lap bars in the future. Isn't that what's happening with Alpen Express at Europa?
 
That’s intriguing…. could it have something to do with the fact that the ride still has shared lap bars?

Flying Fish at Thorpe has single lap bars, but I’m not sure about Scorpion Express.

I’m not sure why RMT would warrant a 1.1m height restriction other than that, though. It’s admittedly a good bit more intense than Octonauts, the other 0.9m coaster, but unless they’ve had a problem with smaller kids getting squashed on some of the corners or something, I can’t think of why that would make it require an increased height restriction.
 
BarryZola said:
Towers struggle to keep the Monorail, Skyride and Hex running on a regular basis. Project Horizon seems to have gone quiet. They can't be bothered to pay a wage that attracts permanent talented techies in sufficient numbers to get all of the rides open on time. The opening hours are hardly overly generous to the point of sucking in new and lasting customers. The events are underwhelming. Basically, pretty much everything is still being run on a shoestring like it has been for the past decade or so, apart from the odd capex project (currently Nemesis). I find it hard to believe that they'll go out and spend 100s of millions more just in-case someone may or may not open a new theme park in 10 years time.
Click to expand...
Just jumping here quick regarding the operating hours of AT.
I believe they close at 4 on most none-school holiday days, mostly for the locals who live around AT. As the village of Alton and other local residents don't want to have to contend with traffic leaving AT at later hours.

Plus, put yourselves in their shoes. Would you want a nice evening being ruined by constant car lights, traffic jams and other issues at something like 7PM?
 
Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
Top