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[2024] Nemesis Reborn: Construction and Speculation

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NoSmoking said:
I'm sorry but this is not true at all, I've said repeatedly "there's plenty room for improvement" in the original theme too if they were creative enough and stayed true to the ride people know and love. I think people's opinions have been valid, the only hyperbole online (mainly on social media) has been people are reacting to people reacting to people.
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Then why have you insisted the Phalanx shouldn’t be included as it’s a story from a 1995 comic and not part of the original concepts?
 
Dave said:
Then why have you insisted the Phalanx shouldn’t be included as it’s a story from a 1995 comic and not part of the original concepts?
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I've said this:
NoSmoking said:
Its like a collective mandela effect that Phalanx was ever anything to do with Nemesis. It wouldnt matter if it was entertaining but that's what people are debating.
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Someone happened to say the Phalanx theme was part of the original ride, I was just stating it actually wasn't. But whether it was or wasn't "wouldnt matter", so long as it was entertaining.
My opinion from the start has been that, based off the clues so far, I don't think it would make for an entertaining Nemesis revamp and given my thinking why.
 
Dave said:
I don’t do Twitter but when I did it was just forums on steroids, they know nothing more, they just shout louder.

As it stands these are the things that are probably happening:

1) The Phalanx will feature.
2) The track is black
3) The supports are “likely” grey.
4) They MAY be adding some red accents.

It is clear that the ride is getting a partial retheme, based on the origional. The fireworks video plus the known changes make that obvious.

I have no issue with you not liking the theorised new theme, it was always going to be divisive and you do give a good argument why. I think where I disagree with you is your posts have basically always alluded to the fact that if they deviate from the original in any way then it cannot be worthy.

I personally don’t think that and I am comfortable with change. That said any change comes with serious responsibility and although I am very sure MMM pay very little heed to these forums I can say that if they “F” it up then more fool them as it is an iconic ride with global recognition. And although I don’t think geeks have much sway on the theme park world, Nemesis retheme is going to be a hard sell for the marketing people when it’s at its best. So it’s the sort of project where a lot of angry geeks “might” make enough noise to be interesting….

But I don’t think that is likely, in fact I think
It’s astronomically unlikely.

I can’t embed the quote but @BarryZola i do like the Phalanx theme but I don’t like the shouting they had the staff do in ST, they can do that theme without the angry people.
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Dave, your 4 points are valid ones but then also the critical word of probably is high riding along them at the moment, possibly for many months to come. And I agree if MMM “F” it up then they will be in the bad books of many. Yes, it’s an iconic ride with global recognition and I wish the theme park industry had a scheme where rides like this could be protected (similar to grade listing on buildings). I mean let’s be brutally honest here, the current state and theme of it has been great for 30 years (ignore the track and support repaint) so why change something that people love?
Dave said:
Then why have you insisted the Phalanx shouldn’t be included as it’s a story from a 1995 comic and not part of the original concepts?
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I agree with NoSmoking. The Phalanx isn’t part of the original ride. And we know it played a role largely in Sub Terra. Really don’t like that…thing.
 
RyanUK said:
Yes, it’s an iconic ride with global recognition and I wish the theme park industry had a scheme where rides like this could be protected (similar to grade listing on buildings). I mean let’s be brutally honest here, the current state and theme of it has been great for 30 years (ignore the track and support repaint) so why change something that people love?
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Funnily enough, numerous rides at Blackpool Pleasure Beach have been listed already under the building listing scheme; I believe all of the woodies bar Nickelodeon Streak, as well as the Casino building and Noah’s Ark, are Grade II listed structures.

The problem with that, however, is that while that does prevent Blackpool Pleasure Beach from removing or majorly modifying those rides, it cannot force them to operate those rides. It’s like that age old saying “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink”. Just because the ride has to stand relatively unmodified, the park does not have to operate it, which defeats the purpose of it (because I’m assuming that those advocating for a listing would be hoping for the ride to be operating). Furthermore, if a ride ever becomes infeasible to operate for whatever reason, the park can’t remove it, so it becomes a millstone around their necks that is preventing progress.

I’m personally against getting rides listed or having some mandated preservation clause for any of them for that reason, but it can be done.
 
Scenic Railway at Dreamland is another Grade II listed rollercoaster. It is a little different, but the ACE Roller Coaster Landmarks in the US (such as Loch Ness Monster at BGW) are meant to be reserved for rides of historical significance.
 
zeock said:
Scenic Railway at Dreamland is another Grade II listed rollercoaster. It is a little different, but the ACE Roller Coaster Landmarks in the US (such as Loch Ness Monster at BGW) are meant to be reserved for rides of historical significance.
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I think Wild Mouse at BPB may have been an ACE landmark, if I’m remembering correctly… but I could be wrong there.
 
Matt N said:
I think Wild Mouse at BPB may have been an ACE landmark, if I’m remembering correctly… but I could be wrong there.
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I can't see anything on the ACE website about that, but you may be right.
 
Matt.GC said:
Nemesis was built in 1994, not 1894 and we're talking about grade listing? Really?
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Someone suggested above that there should be a listing system for rides to force Merlin to preserve rides like Nemesis in their original state, and I pointed out how many of Blackpool’s coasters are already listed.

Funnily enough, I’ve heard people say that Nemesis needed Grade II listing before this retrack was even a thing…
 
Matt.GC said:
Nemesis was built in 1994, not 1894 and we're talking about grade listing? Really?
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The Loch Ness monster at Busch Gardens was designated as a Coaster Landmark in 2003, the ride wasn't even 30 then, but next year, Nemesis will be and is being treated like any other Roller Coaster, a hunk of metal. Nemesis is still considered one of the fop 50 Roller Coasters in the world by the Golden Ticket award, Loch Ness monster isn't and yet is preserved more. Both coasters are signs of huge turning points in their respected parks which got them on the map, yet Nemsis, a coaster which probably has the best usage of Terrain of any coaster in existence, the Theme is still a one of a kind and is incredibly unique, still delivered an incredible experience and still runs as good as it did on opening day, 29 years ago, has created a huge following from passionate Enthusiasts all over the world. Yet its being treated like any other 10-15 year old coaster at a Six Flags park.


"It's only the actual coaster that matters and what makes it so good." No, the whole thing is! The music, the theming, the rides presentation, and yes, the actual Coaster itself. I believe they could've used this retrack to fully embrace that 1994 concept, while preserving the current theming but bringing back aspects that used to exist such as the Double Decker Bus shop and the blood waterfall, but also adding more without intervention on what was there in 1994, but we won't get that. Merlin are only preserving the layout and basic premises of Nemesis because JW said its be better if they did, not the constant praise from the fans and guests for over 25 years.
 
Trooper Looper said:
Merlin are only preserving the layout and basic premises of Nemesis because JW said its be better if they did, not the constant praise from the fans and guests for over 25 years.
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From what John Wardley has told us, I'm not sure that's entirely correct.

In a TTSP Q&A, Wardley said that Merlin initially employed him to devise a replacement for Nemesis. He was 100% on board with devising a Nemesis replacement, but he suggested that the park conduct feedback surveys first to gauge the public opinion towards the ride. Public opinion erred strongly against the idea of removing Nemesis, so the retrack project was pursued instead.

Here's the video of the Q&A in question:

(If the timestamp doesn't work, go to 22:20)

With this in mind, Merlin clearly does care about public opinion, and I'd wager that by and large, the coaster track itself is the most important element of Nemesis to the bulk of those who ride it and love it.
 
Trooper Looper said:
yet Nemsis, a coaster which probably has the best usage of Terrain of any coaster in existence
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Anyone could blow a pit and build the same layout and it would be the same as nemesis.

Nostalgia is what makes nemesis what it is, not the terrain or layout.
 
Islander said:
You know that Merlin don't see Wardley in the same sort of demi-god light that many enthusiasts do, right?
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Yes, but they asked for his opinion nevertheless, and they got it. I really would've thought it'd be obvious for Merlin to Keep Nemesis with its incredible reception from guests to this day.
 
There's expressing an opinion about the way I think they're treating one of my favourite coaster experiences. But I'd be much more concerned if the owners of a mere 29 year old coaster were anything but free to do what they wish with their own property!
 
I definitely think that the owners have their right to do what they want with their property, but surely The GP and Enthusiasts are allowed to have their say.

I guess Merlin aren't an all bad company, at least they're better than the new owners of Lake Conneaut Park, for specific reasons below...


From: https://youtu.be/9AjF3SSdUfY
 
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Trooper Looper said:
Yes, but they asked for his opinion nevertheless, and they got it. I really would've thought it'd be obvious for Merlin to Keep Nemesis with its incredible reception from guests to this day.
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The problem is that when you run a business, it's not quite that clear cut.

Ultimately, Alton Towers is a business. It does not run on nostalgia, it runs on money. I accept that that is a harsh truth, but it is a truth nonetheless. With this in mind, the decision on whether to remove or retrack Nemesis would not have been taken based on guest feedback alone. It ultimately boils down to how much business value each option would have provided to the park relative to its cost and difficulty.

In this instance, retracking Nemesis clearly won out over removing it, but it does seem as though Merlin feel that the most business value will be provided by making changes to the ride. Given that noticeable changes will significantly increase the project's marketability while also presenting a new and fresh experience to guests that refines the concept to suit the modern day rather than the mid-1990s, I can definitely understand their rationale behind making significant changes.

To resonate most strongly with the average visitor, they would likely need to present an outwardly new and different product rather than simply saying "We've installed new track on a coaster you've been riding for 30 years, but pretty much everything else is the same as it always has been!". Just replacing the track and doing simple restoration of what's already there would probably be quite a tough sell to the average guest in marketing; I can imagine many questioning "Why haven't they put in a new ride?" or "Why haven't they changed anything during the refurbishment?". I dare say many would ask "What's the point in me going back if it's the same ride that's always been there?", and "What's the point in me going back?" is the last question that Merlin want visitors to be asking.

To go back to the original point of why it may not have been "obvious" to Merlin to keep Nemesis; I can absolutely see why removing it was considered. I am very glad that they chose to retrack it, but I can see their rationale behind considering its removal. Retracking a ride like-for-like is an extremely expensive form of refurbishment, and it's not inherently marketable. I get that not every penny spent in a theme park is going to lead to an immediate return on investment, but for the amount of money a retrack project costs, it is only natural for Merlin to want a return on an investment of that calibre, and I can 100% understand why they may have erred towards removal initially. Yes, many enthusiasts may view Nemesis as godly and irreplaceable, but enthusiasts make up a tiny, tiny percentage of the park's visitor demographic. Non-enthusiasts are ultimately where 99.9% of the money in running Alton Towers lies, and it's their view that matters. I'd wager that Merlin may have questioned whether a retrack of Nemesis would be a compelling sell to non-enthusiasts compared to a brand new ride on the same site.

Due to this, I think upfront change as part of the refurbishment is necessary. Non-enthusiasts are unlikely to care about some of the minutiae that is being debated in this thread. 99% of guests probably won't care that the track is going to be black rather than earthy, or that Merlin aren't being 100% faithful to the 1994 original. However, the majority of guests would likely be swayed by marketable, obvious changes that make the gains from the refurbishment more tangible and make a more obvious case for why the retracked Nemesis is a compelling proposition. The number of guests pulled in by marketable changes to Nemesis, and the number of guests who enjoy those changes, is likely to considerably outweigh the number of guests who are repulsed by the fact that the ride is not going to reopen exactly as it was in 1994.
 
Trooper Looper said:
Yes, but they asked for his opinion nevertheless, and they got it. I really would've thought it'd be obvious for Merlin to Keep Nemesis with its incredible reception from guests to this day.
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In that regard, do you not think that if Wardley is supposedly involved, then he would have given a nod to the current changes that have come to light?

I would imagine that he’s seen everything if that’s the case? That must mean he’s happy with it?
 
I can't say I say I have the same feelings of wanting it back as on 1994 as I might not have a emotional connection to it like others though I can understand why many are reluctant for changes, then again when did anyone like change?

I'm more curious than nervous to see what differences are coming, would like to see the track get a red texture pattern like the original white track had on opening which at least would give it a cool change better than standard black though can someone ask me why does Merlin have a fetish for painting coasters in that colour?

All I will say is that I'll likely make a better opinion when we see more of the new theme being added during the year and see what it'll be like.
 
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