• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

[2024] Nemesis Reborn: Construction and Speculation

Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
Matt N said:
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I think what @James is trying to get at is that changes to the ride make the retrack project more marketable to folks who have never visited the park before, or folks who might be undecided on whether to return and need that extra push, or folks who won’t return unless the park put in something new.

Compared to a new ride, at least, a like-for-like retrack is an inherently difficult thing to market and sell to those groups mentioned above. Ultimately, it is those groups who the park want to market towards when making a large CAPEX investment. And if I’m talking frankly, those groups probably make up the majority of the target demographic to some extent.

Imagine that someone has visited the park before, but is feeling a bit jaded by the current offering. They won’t want to visit again until the park have put in a new ride or are offering something tangibly “new” for them to experience. Rebuilding Nemesis exactly as was and keeping everything the same would likely have them asking “I’ve done Nemesis before; if it’s exactly the same as it was, then why should I come back and experience it again just because you’ve replaced the track and given the existing scenery a lick of paint?”. If you keep the ride exactly the same as before, making a case to this crowd to make them return for the retracked Nemesis may be tough, because nothing tangible has changed.

Making some changes, on the other hand, does give the park an excuse to sell the retracked Nemesis as a tangibly new and different experience. Theming changes are tangible changes, and while not everyone cares about theming, having a different theme and an altered backstory that revolves around Nemesis being “reborn” or “revived” or whatever, as well as new theming objects, new trains, differently coloured track and other changes does present tangible change that might make these folks want to come back and ride it a little more. The park can at least present the veneer of a “new” experience, which would be very hard if the ride were kept exactly as it was before.

Most refurbishments of this ilk like to present the veneer of a “new” experience, and I’d wager that it’s in large part for that reason. When retracking the Incredible Hulk Coaster, Universal Orlando completely changed the queue, made pretty drastic alterations to the storyline and added on-board sound amongst other new enhancements. When Merlin retracked Colossos at Heide Park, they completely changed the theme, enhanced it with various additions including a giant flaming structure, and renamed it “Colossos: Kampf der Giganten”. Even Europa Park, a park that is arguably more nostalgic and faithful to its history than most, gave Eurosat a completely new theme, including a lavish new queue, a brand new exterior and various thematic touches throughout the ride, when they retracked it.

My point is that it is very hard to market this type of refurbishment and make a case for why people should come and experience the ride in its refurbished form without offering something tangibly different, and for folks who may not visit or revisit without a “new” experience being offered, this is very important.
Click to expand...
Is it not the same as wacking VR on Air and calling it a "new experience"? Did that make people flock to the park? That's the point I'm trying to make.
 
RIPCorky said:
Is it not the same as wacking VR on Air and calling it a "new experience"? Did that make people flock to the park? That's the point I'm trying to make.
Click to expand...
To some extent, it is arguably similar, but that was a tangible change to the experience. Whether you liked it or not, the VR was a tangible change to the experience of Air because seeing the ride through VR goggles and being “transported to a new world” if you like was a very different way of experiencing it.

I think Galactica isn’t an entirely fair case study of whether a “new experience” made people flock to the park. In 2016, the park had other considerable confounding factors working against them. The Smiler accident had only happened the year before and the park were still being hounded by the press at every turn, the park had shut 6 rides and numerous food outlets and shows for the season, and things were still in a general “crisis mode” following the Smiler crash and its effects. It would have been an absolute miracle for that investment to produce a big increase in attendance given the circumstances.

Yes, Galactica was ultimately an ill-fated change, but it is hard to judge whether or not it on its own would have drawn guests in simply due to the dire circumstances the park found itself in when it opened.

Also, less was arguably riding on Galactica than is riding on the Nemesis retrack because the budget was so much smaller.

Perhaps a better way of explaining it would be; the Nemesis retrack is, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of building a brand new major coaster from a CAPEX standpoint. When spending that kind of money, most businesses would want something tangible to show for it from a customer standpoint. Simply regurgitating the ride that’s existed for the last 30 years ad verbatim is not a tangibly new and different deliverable from the standpoint of the customer.
 
James said:
That’s not the point being made.
Click to expand...
I think you've mixed up two different posts. I was replying to a poster saying 99% the public won't care whatever theme it is wouldnt matter anyway. Which is just an irrelevant cynical view. Why would theme parks bother theme rides in the first place?

About remarketing, of course a "sequel" iteration of theme would generate new hype, which could be a persauder for paying for the project. But once the hype's over, would that actual ride be as good as enhancing the original theme? That's the debate.

Also despite the mantra, the most successful parks in the world regularly replace tracks or have major refurbishments to maintain their most popular rides, just like this, without having to make arbitrary changes. They may be forced into this situation by other factors but it's more to do with the organisation of Merlin than some kind of rule.

Just like how wooden coasters "werent marketable" for decades yet seemed be no problem for other parks round the world.

If that was so true then Nemesis would be more successful changing theme completely. But the clues point towards more of an fanservicing "sequel" theme based on Sub Terra / Phalanx, what's so marketable about that?
 
Found this on /Rollercoasters On Reddit. Looks like Six Flags Great America have had a rather heavy delivery from B&M.

Is this the track we saw?

RDT_20230109_1838062120835081033519067.png
 
MattyH said:
Found this on /Rollercoasters On Reddit. Looks like Six Flags Great America have had a rather heavy delivery from B&M.

Is this the track we saw?

RDT_20230109_1838062120835081033519067.png
Click to expand...
That’s probably more likely to be a part for maintenance on one of their existing B&M coasters, in my view (they already have Batman The Ride, Raging Bull, Superman Ultimate Flight and X-Flight).

They haven’t had a B&M coaster announced for the upcoming season, there’s been no indicators of construction for a 2023 coaster as far as I’m aware, and based on Six Flags’ typical construction patterns, it’s far too early for track to be arriving on site for a 2024 coaster.
 
Matt N said:
To some extent, it is arguably similar, but that was a tangible change to the experience. Whether you liked it or not, the VR was a tangible change to the experience of Air because seeing the ride through VR goggles and being “transported to a new world” if you like was a very different way of experiencing it.

I think Galactica isn’t an entirely fair case study of whether a “new experience” made people flock to the park. In 2016, the park had other considerable confounding factors working against them. The Smiler accident had only happened the year before and the park were still being hounded by the press at every turn, the park had shut 6 rides and numerous food outlets and shows for the season, and things were still in a general “crisis mode” following the Smiler crash and its effects. It would have been an absolute miracle for that investment to produce a big increase in attendance given the circumstances.

Yes, Galactica was ultimately an ill-fated change, but it is hard to judge whether or not it on its own would have drawn guests in simply due to the dire circumstances the park found itself in when it opened.

Also, less was arguably riding on Galactica than is riding on the Nemesis retrack because the budget was so much smaller.

Perhaps a better way of explaining it would be; the Nemesis retrack is, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of building a brand new major coaster from a CAPEX standpoint. When spending that kind of money, most businesses would want something tangible to show for it from a customer standpoint. Simply regurgitating the ride that’s existed for the last 30 years ad verbatim is not a tangibly new and different deliverable from the standpoint of the customer.
Click to expand...
If anything Air to Galactica was a bigger change than we will see with Nemesis. Also offering an experience you can't really get in the UK with a rollercoaster. I think there is one somewhere correct me if I'm wrong.

To me they aren't marketing this as a "new rollercoaster" but rather preserving a near perfect ride experience for future generations to enjoy. Whether they paint the track black or original isn't really that important. I don't believe AT will market this as come and experience the "new" Nemesis. I think they'd be foolish to, because the majority of people will step off the ride and probably say it's no different.

Investing this money into something that will last another 30 years isn't bad value, it's probably the most famous coaster in the UK, people will travel to ride it regardless.
 
RIPCorky said:
If anything Air to Galactica was a bigger change than we will see with Nemesis. Also offering an experience you can't really get in the UK with a rollercoaster. I think there is one somewhere correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
The Air to Galactica theme change only involved the addition of VR headsets (which were phased out in 2018 and scrapped in 2019) and a storyline change, whereas the Nemesis retrack involves a new storyline (probably), 'more storytelling', more effects, and almost all the track and footers being replaced. In my opinion the change to Nemesis is bigger than the Air to Galactica change.
 
RIPCorky said:
If anything Air to Galactica was a bigger change than we will see with Nemesis. Also offering an experience you can't really get in the UK with a rollercoaster. I think there is one somewhere correct me if I'm wrong.

To me they aren't marketing this as a "new rollercoaster" but rather preserving a near perfect ride experience for future generations to enjoy. Whether they paint the track black or original isn't really that important. I don't believe AT will market this as come and experience the "new" Nemesis. I think they'd be foolish to, because the majority of people will step off the ride and probably say it's no different.

Investing this money into something that will last another 30 years isn't bad value, it's probably the most famous coaster in the UK, people will travel to ride it regardless.
Click to expand...
I think they probably will market it as “new” to some extent. Colossos: Kampf der Giganten, the similar Merlin retrack job at Heide Park in Germany, was marketed as new when that opened in 2019.

Personally, I’d be surprised if Merlin spent a 7 or 8 figure sum on something that they can’t market as “new” in some way. I am very aware that not every penny spent in a theme park will bring a return on investment, but I’d be surprised if most companies would let that much money be spent with nothing tangibly new to show for it.

As I said, most other refurbishments of this nature have had a tangibly new or altered theme, or some other kind of tangible alteration, to go alongside them. I think there’s a very good reason for that, and that’s because a tangibly “new” product is likely to have greater appeal and give people a bigger reason to visit or return.
 
zeock said:
The Air to Galactica theme change only involved the addition of VR headsets (which were phased out in 2018 and scrapped in 2019) and a storyline change, whereas the Nemesis retrack involves a new storyline (probably), 'more storytelling', more effects, and almost all the track and footers being replaced. In my opinion the change to Nemesis is bigger than the Air to Galactica change.
Click to expand...
More work yes I agree. However the actual ride experience in theory should not be at all different.
 
Matt N said:
most other refurbishments of this nature have had a tangibly new or altered theme
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how you could decide "most" have without knowing every instance of this happening to a major ride round the world. I can think of Hulk, Big One, Python (Efteling) for coasters, probably more being majorly retracked without remarketing and any theme changes were enhancements to the original

It’s not a hard fast rule. What matters more is what’s gonna be the better theme?


If remarketing with a new theme mattered so much, why not go with an all-new theme? Instead of (if the clues suggest) an obscure Nemesis sequel based loosely on a comic nobody read from a closed attraction next door that ran for about 3 years.

No, there'd be better ways to make the Nemesis we love updates and enhanced for the future. I hope for that
 
Last edited by a moderator:
John said:
B&M fabricate all their track in Ohio, so whatever is being delivered to SFGAm from Belgium isn't track.
Click to expand...

Not true. The majority of their track is finished in Ohio. They do have additional capacity elsewhere, when needed. At one point, all of the running rails were fabricated in Europe and then sent to Claremont for final assembly onto the box spine, which is manufactured in Ohio.

Looking at the rather sporadic import data, Claremont still receive large, heavy and frequent shipments from B&M, mainly from Italy. This suggests that B&M still manufacture and profile alot of the running rails for coasters in Europe, then ship them off for final assembly to the box spine in the US.

People will not like hearing this.l as the love the narrative that all B&M track comes from Ohio. But there are interviews online that confirm otherwise. Including the fact rails were manufactured in Europe.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tom
They can’t get away with marketing this as a new ride experience as the end product (the track and feeling) will largely be the same with perhaps some minor theming changes. That alone will make a difference but the large majority of the public don’t go to Alton towers for one ride alone, we are looking at this from an enthusiasts point of view.

I’m not sure the casual member of the public buys into the stories as much as most anyway. I think if you did a survey on each ride and had people try and explain the theme you would get all sorts of strange answers.

The investment for Nemesis is to stabilise the future of the park. They must have an idea that they are unable to top what is already there on that site (limited by planning permission restrictions) and advise from experts like Wardley. Without doubt the best investment for that site to bring more people through the door would have been to put a new ride in. This refurb is not about attracting more numbers. It’s about preserving what they already have.
 
Steve74 said:
The loop has been removed:

From: https://twitter.com/ThemeParkJackk/status/1612804593645228033?s=20&t=FWPUTNurCY6XsiZGgNy6oQ

As I replied to the tweet, could the loop be kept for theming etc? It looks like it has been dismantled and removed accurately and carefully. I have heard rumours the loop could be reused somewhere.
Click to expand...

I wouldn’t say it’s accurate and carefully as it’s just been unbolted. There’s not been any cutting, it’s just that the crane will more easily lift the top half of the loop far easier than taking it off in two sections of track. The photo below shows the sections of each track piece:

9CA249F5-524C-4E52-AB7C-02A76E50BC87.jpeg
Honestly I wouldn’t bank on any real track being used elsewhere. The sheer weight of it would require some pretty hefty foundations which would be at pretty high cost. Let the new, actual track do the talking!
 
If anyone is getting a cut off, it’s TPWW. But honestly B&M track is very heavy so I think it’s most likely all going to be scrapped
 
Craig said:
I wouldn’t say it’s accurate and carefully as it’s just been unbolted. There’s not been any cutting, it’s just that the crane will more easily lift the top half of the loop far easier than taking it off in two sections of track. The photo below shows the sections of each track piece:

9CA249F5-524C-4E52-AB7C-02A76E50BC87.jpeg
Honestly I wouldn’t bank on any real track being used elsewhere. The sheer weight of it would require some pretty hefty foundations which would be at pretty high cost. Let the new, actual track do the talking!
Click to expand...
Oh yeah I assumed it was unbolted after all every other piece has been. I agree with the weight thing should it be used elsewhere but it's nice to speculate about these things!
 
Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
Top