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2025: General Discussion

I don’t think you can compare the UK parks to their counterparts in the USA. The population is greater, the size of the parks are larger and the weather is mostly a lot better as well.

Weekday low attendances are no doubt a problem for UK parks where on some days the cost of opening the park probably outweighs the income it generates, particularly in months where the weather isn’t so great.

But as others have indicated, this should mean more effort is put into the parks during the peak seasons, such as summer when the park could really boost its revenue and stay open later.

Octoberfest is sure would still be a success if it’s done over weekends only, dare I say same with Scarefest and would allow the park to put more effort into these events. School holidays being another time for greater effort.

I’d be really interested to know the cause for these cutbacks, is it lower guest numbers, lower spend, the budget impact on staff costs, increased electricity bills - probably all of them, I suppose. Maybe Bianca will make an announcement at some point….. doubt she will be saying best season ever this year!
 
It seems they have taken an approach for 2025 of ‘back the winners’.

With a back drop of seemingly reduced budgets and impending outsourced entertainment they have cut their cloth accordingly. Whilst there are undoubtedly cuts (RIP Oktoberfest), they are shifting spend elsewhere.

Alton After Dark seemed to prove itself last year in terms of attendance - they have extended the number of dates in 2025.

Early Ride Time is back for summer and now May half term too and also includes CBeebeis Land, this will come at a cost both in terms of wages and tech services resource.

Hours extended over the busy August period.

Scarefest - their most revenue generating time of year has been extended in both dates and hours vs 2024, makes sense if they are confident it will unlock extra spend.

It’s not to say Oktoberfest and Friday fireworks didn’t make money, but if they made the least amount of money out of all the events then it would make sense to see them on the chopping block.

I am more concerned now about operational decisions for 2025. Staggered openings and seasonal operation of certain rides are personally more impactful to my visits than events and I do have concerns these will be back with a vengeance for 2025.
 
It’s concerning that some people are just willing to accept perpetual cuts to events in a vague hope that ride availability might get better. Is this really how low our expectations should be set? I’m sure Merlin will be thrilled they’ve managed to degrade the industry to the extent that they can be excused cutting events provided they manage to get some rides open.

I also wonder about how we know Oktoberfest was losing money? What even is the measure of profitability? Are we just measuring outside entertainment cost vs. revenue from outsourced catering? Is anyone taking into account the potential increase in return visits from increased guest satisfaction?

Assuming the event ran for a number of years, one would assume its return after the first year meant it did. The increase in events during that period supports that assumption. And so when did it start losing money? Was it a result of the cutbacks we saw last year?

My wider point is that there as so many facets and benefits to putting on events, often they are difficult to assess or even intangible. The myopic approach of just getting rid of events because a spreadsheet says they don’t make money is a reflection of an unsophisticated, ham-fisted approach. Merlin ought to be mature enough to know that. Their other short-term decisions suggests they aren’t.
 
venny said:
It’s concerning that some people are just willing to accept perpetual cuts to events in a vague hope that ride availability might get better. Is this really how low our expectations should be set? I’m sure Merlin will be thrilled they’ve managed to degrade the industry to the extent that they can be excused cutting events provided they manage to get some rides open.

I also wonder about how we know Oktoberfest was losing money? What even is the measure of profitability? Are we just measuring outside entertainment cost vs. revenue from outsourced catering? Is anyone taking into account the potential increase in return visits from increased guest satisfaction?

Assuming the event ran for a number of years, one would assume its return after the first year meant it did. The increase in events during that period supports that assumption. And so when did it start losing money? Was it a result of the cutbacks we saw last year?

My wider point is that there as so many facets and benefits to putting on events, often they are difficult to assess or even intangible. The myopic approach of just getting rid of events because a spreadsheet says they don’t make money is a reflection of an unsophisticated, ham-fisted approach. Merlin ought to be mature enough to know that. Their other short-term decisions suggests they aren’t.
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Are we reading the same forum, who is accepting them?

People are musing on the logic, doesn’t mean they agree with the decision.

Some of the changes I do think make sense (Scarefest changes for instance). I don’t have an issue with some mid-week closures if peak times have longer opening, but I don’t see much evidence of that.

Octoberfest is a bonkers decision in my opinion and having no events between March and the end of September also baffling.
 
venny said:
It’s concerning that some people are just willing to accept perpetual cuts to events in a vague hope that ride availability might get better. Is this really how low our expectations should be set? I’m sure Merlin will be thrilled they’ve managed to degrade the industry to the extent that they can be excused cutting events provided they manage to get some rides open.

I also wonder about how we know Oktoberfest was losing money? What even is the measure of profitability? Are we just measuring outside entertainment cost vs. revenue from outsourced catering? Is anyone taking into account the potential increase in return visits from increased guest satisfaction?

Assuming the event ran for a number of years, one would assume its return after the first year meant it did. The increase in events during that period supports that assumption. And so when did it start losing money? Was it a result of the cutbacks we saw last year?

My wider point is that there as so many facets and benefits to putting on events, often they are difficult to assess or even intangible. The myopic approach of just getting rid of events because a spreadsheet says they don’t make money is a reflection of an unsophisticated, ham-fisted approach. Merlin ought to be mature enough to know that. Their other short-term decisions suggests they aren’t.
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No one knows if Oktoberfest made money in the first year but even if it didn't it makes sense to trial it for a few years, especially if it generally seemed popular but wasn't quite making additional people visit.

But of course if a large number of the additional visits are annual passholders the only extra revenue is food and drink. Its possible that Oktoberfest didn't attracr extra day visits.
 
jon81uk said:
But of course if a large number of the additional visits are annual passholders the only extra revenue is food and drink. Its possible that Oktoberfest didn't attracr extra day visits.
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But that's a major flaw in gauging whether something is profitable or not. Sure it might have been mainly passholders attending that event, but how many of them purchased their passes on the basis of that event running and being of an expected quality? Same with Fireworks, I bought a Platinum Pass last year in order to be able to do all three days. But Merlin have no way of knowing that's why I bought my pass so they can't associate the revenue from that spend with a specific event, or even a specific attraction. As it stands I'm likely to step down to a cheaper gold pass this year if I buy one at all.

This is the problem with short termist thinking where you are constantly analysing most profitable vs least profitable activities, as opposed to an approach based on building brand prestige and providing an overall quality experience that people want to pay good money for.

Merlin are all wrong for this park, they just don't get it. At this point I'd be happy to see them selling up, surely anyone could do better than this?
 
That’s exactly my point. Nobody knows whether Oktoberfest made money or by what metric. Yet there seems to be a raft of assumptions being thrown around like facts to justify events not returning.

Allow me to throw around some other assumptions:

In the same way the monorail doesn’t make money by many metrics. Adopting that logic means you’d close the monorail. If I’m then forced to trek to the main entrance in the rain after I’ve paid £10 to park my car though, it’s not going to encourage me to return.

Merlin have saved money on a spreadsheet by closing the monorail, but in the long term they’ve potentially lost the revenue from that return visit. Those upset guests have probably told their friends. They’re going to visit Paultons instead next year.

Merlin’s revenue reduces, park budgets are slashed, the experience gets worse, less visitors return. Then when revenue falls, some will try to explain it away as a result of an overall shift in leisure demands.

Meanwhile parks delivering a good product, like Europa, continue to increase their visitation and revenues.
 
venny said:
That’s exactly my point. Nobody knows whether Oktoberfest made money or by what metric. Yet there seems to be a raft of assumptions being thrown around like facts to justify events not returning.

Allow me to throw around some other assumptions:

In the same way the monorail doesn’t make money by many metrics. Adopting that logic means you’d close the monorail. If I’m then forced to trek to the main entrance in the rain after I’ve paid £10 to park my car though, it’s not going to encourage me to return.

Merlin have saved money on a spreadsheet by closing the monorail, but in the long term they’ve potentially lost the revenue from that return visit. Those upset guests have probably told their friends. They’re going to visit Paultons instead next year.

Merlin’s revenue reduces, park budgets are slashed, the experience gets worse, less visitors return. Then when revenue falls, some will try to explain it away as a result of an overall shift in leisure demands.

Meanwhile parks delivering a good product, like Europa, continue to increase their visitation and revenues.
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Again no one is explaining it away, they are discussing it. You can ponder the logic without agreeing to it.
 
I’m not going to traipse through the whole thread, but when you say no one is explaining it away, they are:

Ash said:
Not surprised in the slightest.

Bar Scarefest and Fireworks I think that will be the end of the “lawns” experiment.

Without permanent facilities this was always a possibility and honestly I’m not that disappointed.

The events felt like a distraction and the stage shows were a bit amateur all things considered. If Alton are going to do a stage show I’d much rather it be in a proper permanent venue (near the hotels perhaps), rather than an afterthought.

The benches will not be missed.

Hopefully this allows the park to focus on getting rid of the sticking plasters

- A proper permanent entertainment venue somewhere on park
- Reopening towers st family restaurant, Swiss Cottage and adding some permanent food “booths”
- Investing in more permanent maze locations
- Investing in allowing the park to be closer to 365 (lighting/indoor venues/ride alternatives/shows etc)
- Getting Project Horizon and new flat rides in the pipeline
- Fix up the gardens and come up with sustainable uses for the towers ruins
- Bring back and integrate key characters/IP (Henry/Henrietta Hound, Alton Bear, Scarefest characters, Algenon, Emily Alton, Darwin, Phalanx, Wraiths, Beornen)

Honestly i never bothered with events other than scarefest and fireworks.

Fireworks being cut back to 2 days seems bizarre but it is what it is.

Nevertheless until Merlin ween themselves off the stupid MAP business model this will continue.
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venny said:
I’m not going to traipse through the whole thread, but when you say no one is explaining it away, they are:
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Ash doesn’t like using the lawns year round, that’s an aesthetic opinion. The view across the lawns is iconic so you can’t blame some people having an issue with a stage and tons of benches on it. Ash literally outlined how they would prefer a strong event and entertainment schedule to be accommodated.

I don’t see how that was siding with the apparent cuts to events, just pointing out a dislike for some of the previous set up 🤷‍♂️
 
I'm not sure if there is a perfect answer to the cost cutting but removing events such as oktoberfest gives people one less reason to visit the park reducing visitor numbers. These events are popular at adding additional visits or giving reason to someone who hasn't been for a while to come back.

Personally I would prefer them to cut back in the week and try and encourage purpose visits to the park. Away from school holidays I feel like this would work better:

Mondays - 10am till 5pm full park open
Tuesday - park closed, waterpark included with a hotel stay (9am till 8pm opening). Possibility of a Towers and Gardens only day to draw in the national trust crowd and create a second revenue stream.
Wednesday - 10am till 4pm cbeebies only day, hotel deals aimed at toddler visits / cheap day tickets
Thursday- 10am till 4pm cbeebies only day, hotel deals aimed at toddler visits / cheap day tickets
Friday - 10am till 6pm full park open, hotel deals aimed at adrenaline stays
Saturday - 10am till 6pm full park open
Sunday - 10am till 5pm full park open

Then events would be:

January- twixmas first weekend only
Feb - Pirate takeover for Feb half term
March - Alton after dark, all weekends including Friday. Closed weekdays.
April - Easter trail event for school holidays and off peak schedule for non holiday weeks
May - New May school holiday event and off peak schedule for non holiday weeks
June - Encourage school trip takeover days possibly giving discounts for visits on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday reverting to 10am till 5pm on those days with full park opening. This might only need to be the end if June.
July - summer take over event once the school holidays start with the same approach to weekdays as June with school trips if there is demand. Summer holiday days would see opening extended to 6pm weekdays and 7pm Friday and Saturday.
August - continue summer take over event
September - Oktoberfest event for Friday, Saturday Sunday and Monday, drop cheap student tickets into the local universities. Rest of the month reverts to off peak schedule
October - weekend and school holidays for scarefest, rest of the week follows off peak schedule. Scarefest opening hours 10am till 9pm
November - Fireworks event Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Park closed till last weekend when christmas event starts.
December- Christmas sleepover event, Park open weekends including friday and school holidays, cbeebies, mutiny bay and Walliams world. Hours 10am till 5pm.

I'm sure this would be controversial closing 1 day a week fully and only cbeebies 2 days a week but I think it would make the weekdays more cost effective encouraging visits on fewer days so they are busier, reducing wages with the cbeebies days and closed day also allowing time for maintenance. This then also means the days they are open they are open longer as the current 10am till 4pm puts most people off visiting despite them being quiet days.

Just my thoughts, in a perfect world I would prefer them to open everyday but this makes more sense if it protects the events.
 
venny said:
I’m not going to traipse through the whole thread, but when you say no one is explaining it away, they are:
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Ah yes, the well known Merlin apologist appears

GooseOnTheLoose said:
Albeit without his usual wish requests for the 4D cinema to reopen, a Flying Theatre at the end of Hex and whatever the flavour of the month is for the staff car park behind Mutiny Bay.
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Rattled
 
Now now, don't think everyone else needs to see petty disagreements and sniping please :p .

I think even if I was an optimist about the cuts bringing in something better, the problem is that this is a group wide cut to the entertainment teams. If there's little to no internal entertainment teams, I have little faith in anything positive coming in off the back of those cuts. Sure you can contract out stuff, but does that allow the resort to quickly respond to demand and amend events as the season goes on? As others have pointed out, entertainment teams very much carried the park at times last season, is that going to be possible when there's very little of them on site in the first place?

Studios was gutted a while back (prior to the current cuts), and we quickly saw a vast reduction in the quality of theming across the resort. Theming done in the cheapest way possible and rotting away within in a matter of a couple of seasons.

F&B outsourced to Aramark and done in the cheapest way possible but with ever increasing prices.

Is entertainment going to go the same way? Generic stuff occasionally brought in, with very little thought to a wider theme and of an increasingly lower quality because the budget only goes so far. People who turn up, perform and never get the park. Across Merlin, just like the Studios cuts, there were people in those entertainment teams that lived and breathed what the park meant to a lot of guests. That's quickly lost as soon as you're hiring people in as and when.
 
MrTowers said:
I'm not sure if there is a perfect answer to the cost cutting but removing events such as oktoberfest gives people one less reason to visit the park reducing visitor numbers. These events are popular at adding additional visits or giving reason to someone who hasn't been for a while to come back.

Personally I would prefer them to cut back in the week and try and encourage purpose visits to the park. Away from school holidays I feel like this would work better:

Mondays - 10am till 5pm full park open
Tuesday - park closed, waterpark included with a hotel stay (9am till 8pm opening). Possibility of a Towers and Gardens only day to draw in the national trust crowd and create a second revenue stream.
Wednesday - 10am till 4pm cbeebies only day, hotel deals aimed at toddler visits / cheap day tickets
Thursday- 10am till 4pm cbeebies only day, hotel deals aimed at toddler visits / cheap day tickets
Friday - 10am till 6pm full park open, hotel deals aimed at adrenaline stays
Saturday - 10am till 6pm full park open
Sunday - 10am till 5pm full park open

Then events would be:

January- twixmas first weekend only
Feb - Pirate takeover for Feb half term
March - Alton after dark, all weekends including Friday. Closed weekdays.
April - Easter trail event for school holidays and off peak schedule for non holiday weeks
May - New May school holiday event and off peak schedule for non holiday weeks
June - Encourage school trip takeover days possibly giving discounts for visits on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday reverting to 10am till 5pm on those days with full park opening. This might only need to be the end if June.
July - summer take over event once the school holidays start with the same approach to weekdays as June with school trips if there is demand. Summer holiday days would see opening extended to 6pm weekdays and 7pm Friday and Saturday.
August - continue summer take over event
September - Oktoberfest event for Friday, Saturday Sunday and Monday, drop cheap student tickets into the local universities. Rest of the month reverts to off peak schedule
October - weekend and school holidays for scarefest, rest of the week follows off peak schedule. Scarefest opening hours 10am till 9pm
November - Fireworks event Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Park closed till last weekend when christmas event starts.
December- Christmas sleepover event, Park open weekends including friday and school holidays, cbeebies, mutiny bay and Walliams world. Hours 10am till 5pm.

I'm sure this would be controversial closing 1 day a week fully and only cbeebies 2 days a week but I think it would make the weekdays more cost effective encouraging visits on fewer days so they are busier, reducing wages with the cbeebies days and closed day also allowing time for maintenance. This then also means the days they are open they are open longer as the current 10am till 4pm puts most people off visiting despite them being quiet days.

Just my thoughts, in a perfect world I would prefer them to open everyday but this makes more sense if it protects the events.
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Hmm... I'd do it slightly differently if I was to do it.

I would cap school trip bookings to a total of 40% of park capacity. This would make the crowds more manageable for the park and for the schools as I don't think it's fair on the schools to come when every other school comes.

Whilst Cbeebies only days could work in theory, I think you'll get a lot of disappointed people to be honest.

One thing I'd like to see Merlin consider not just for Towers but for other Merlin parks is to have the parks open midweek once a week but exclusively for passholders. It could be during the day or in an evening although it could work very well for passholders.
 
owenstreet7 said:
Hmm... I'd do it slightly differently if I was to do it.

I would cap school trip bookings to a total of 40% of park capacity. This would make the crowds more manageable for the park and for the schools as I don't think it's fair on the schools to come when every other school comes.

Whilst Cbeebies only days could work in theory, I think you'll get a lot of disappointed people to be honest.

One thing I'd like to see Merlin consider not just for Towers but for other Merlin parks is to have the parks open midweek once a week but exclusively for passholders. It could be during the day or in an evening although it could work very well for passholders.
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I think the cbeebies only days would need to be clearly marked so that visitors aren't disappointed, everyone needs to pre-book anyway these days so shouldn't be too much of an issue. I think cbeebies days would work though as there will be lots of parents not willing to spend full price on alton towers when they only want cbeebies land without towers risking these tickets being used as cheap entry to the main park.

There would still be 4 full access days into the park with better opening hours and this could mean rather than running a Wednesday at 5% full, the Monday and Fridays might be 30% full as those that can go in the week will make arrangements around these days instead.

The school trips idea was about opening the park up during the closed or cbeebies only days to boost capacity when it's needed without risking the general public having a poor day out. These could be marked on the web as school visit days but limited so that not every school shows up at the same time (limited school bookings but priced cheaper for these extra weekdays so they don't show up on Monday or Friday)

Passholder only days do worry me, whilst great for a passholder they do little to boost revenue for towers, and that's coming from someone who has a merlin pass. It could be an option for the closed Tuesday on the odd occasion or this day could be used for corporate buy out days. Obviously it would give the park the option to do something a little bit different and bring in visitors who wouldn't normally go.
 
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