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[202X] Project Horizon (SW9?): Planning Approved

Fair enough; that does make sense.

I agree that 2025 would make more sense given Nemesis in 2024, but I still think that October 2022 seems too early to be submitting the planning application for an indoor ride opening in 2025.
 
The mid-season openings such as Smiler and DBGT weren’t out of choice, they were always planned to open in March but got delayed during the construction process.

I suspect that this application has gone in earlier than others because they are anticipating it taking longer to get through the process due to the history surrounding that location. There may well be lots of backward and forwarding between the planners and the park before this gets approved - just look at the project Exodus situation for an example of how drawn out these things can get.

They don’t want another rush job like the Smiler, so this will give them plenty of breathing room should they need it.
 
My guess is the issues with Thorpe's exodus planning have meant they will have to knock that back a year have brought this forward a year to give the group something to promote in each year, and not to clash 2 major investments.
Another rushed investment is all that Towers needs!
 
Yeah that's the only thing I can really think of to be honest. If Exodus does end up being 2024, this will be 2025. If Exodus has to be pushed back, I'd assume this will be brought forward and it will be the other way round as this is likely to have less issues planning wise than Exodus. I am expecting 2025 though.
 
Unless Nemesis has a substantial thematic uplift (ala Collosus at Heide Park) with the alien being Wicker Man-esque in terms of it's effects/spectacle, I think the park will struggle to attract guests in 2024 on the strength of the ride simply re-opening. Islands of Adventure opened Skull Island: Reign of Kong in 2016 as Universal perhaps thought similarly about the 'new' Incredible Hulk Coaster (Don't get me wrong, totally different levels of park and investment, but I still feel the point stands).

I love Nemesis and will be excited to see if it rides any differently or I can spot any little changes that 99% of people will not (the 1% being the likes of people who post on here and other enthusiasts), but I think even Merlin will struggle to sell it as a 'new' ride without huge visual alterations. How did Galactica do when it was VR'd up from Air? This is probably less interesting to the general public than that even was...on paper.

I only say all of this as I don't think the suggestion of keeping Project Horizon until 2025 simply because of Nemesis is necessarily a given. The ride is 28 years old and I am sure that structural engineers, B&M or a combination of the two have advised Merlin that it was approaching the end of it's life and that a decision had to be made on what they wanted to do next, and a timeline provided on when it needed to be done by. Could it not be possible that this was a decision made in isolation from the R & D of the rest of the resort and Merlin's portfolio?

(Merely playing devils advocate ;))
 
JugglersDoughnut said:
Unless Nemesis has a substantial thematic uplift (ala Collosus at Heide Park) with the alien being Wicker Man-esque in terms of it's effects/spectacle, I think the park will struggle to attract guests in 2024 on the strength of the ride simply re-opening. Islands of Adventure opened Skull Island: Reign of Kong in 2016 as Universal perhaps thought similarly about the 'new' Incredible Hulk Coaster (Don't get me wrong, totally different levels of park and investment, but I still feel the point stands).
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The planning application for the retrack expressly stated that no major thematic changes would be made, and that the refurbishment project would simply see the existing theming maintained. That application heavily implied that the work on Nemesis is 99% structural.

I do kind of agree with you (I don’t expect Nemesis reopening to generate the same buzz as a new attraction opening, particularly given the limited changes being made), but given the ruckus that the ride “closing” generated, I guess we can’t make any guarantees…

Back onto Horizon, I reckon that “Exodus being delayed to 2025 and Horizon being bought forward to 2024” does sound like a believable theory. Under Thorpe’s original timetable, Exodus construction was supposed to have begun by now (I think they said September/October 2022, correct me if I’m wrong?), so with the Secretary of State referral, at least a couple of months are likely to have been added onto their timetable. And that’s assuming that they would have had contractors ready and begun putting shovels in the ground the second the application was approved, which isn’t usually the case.

I reckon Exodus still has a fighting chance of opening in 2024, but I don’t think a delay to 2025 is impossible.

With that in mind, Merlin may well have wanted to cut their losses and bring Horizon forward to 2024 to compensate. I know that it’s in Coaster Corner, but I think its indoor nature could well make it far less of a planning issue than Exodus; just look at how quickly it’s sailed from public consultation to planning application! Exodus and Amazon both took 3 months from their initial consultations to get the full planning application in, while this has taken less than a month.
 
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Alton Towers (and Merlin) have learnt a lot of lessons from the past of attraction opening dates being delayed, issues arising and last-minute rush jobs. Wicker Man was a more carefully planned construction. It's safe to assume they would want to be cautious with Project Horizon also. We don't know yet if this attraction will feature new hardware or technology, we don't know if it will be one ride in the corner of Walliams World or an entirely new area with its own theme and support attractions.

This will be a huge project, and it makes sense to open it in 2025, not just from the angle of making sure the construction runs smoothly, and any arising issues can be tackled to end with a complete and polished project, but also from a marketing standpoint. In 2024 Nemesis will be in the limelight. Why completely overshadow that with a new dark ride? Nemesis will cost millions, they will want to go all out in 2024 and make it the focal point.
 
James said:
Alton Towers (and Merlin) have learnt a lot of lessons from the past of attraction opening dates being delayed, issues arising and last-minute rush jobs. Wicker Man was a more carefully planned construction. It's safe to assume they would want to be cautious with Project Horizon also. We don't know yet if this attraction will feature new hardware or technology, we don't know if it will be one ride in the corner of Walliams World or an entirely new area with its own theme and support attractions.

This will be a huge project, and it makes sense to open it in 2025, not just from the angle of making sure the construction runs smoothly, and any arising issues can be tackled to end with a complete and polished project, but also from a marketing standpoint. In 2024 Nemesis will be in the limelight. Why completely overshadow that with a new dark ride? Nemesis will cost millions, they will want to go all out in 2024 and make it the focal point.
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Whilst I personally agree that I can't see them wanting to open Nemesis and this in the same year, I really can't fathom how they could feasibly market it in an impactful way. Ultimately it's going to look the same, have the same name, feature the same theming - to everyone but us it is the exact same ride. Aside from putting the staff in some (hopefully more visually appealing) uniforms and perhaps releasing a new comic or two, I really can't see how this could possibly have even close to the same visitorship impact as an actual new attraction.
 
AT86 said:
I’m struggling to understand why it would make business sense for them to open this mid-season @Matt N?

2024 is the re-opening of Nemesis, that is likely the marketing draw for that season.

It makes far more sense to have the next large investment open in 2025.

It’s not all about rushing to get things open for the sake of it. They need to maximise return on investment.
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AT86 said:
I’m struggling to understand why it would make business sense for them to open this mid-season @Matt N?

2024 is the re-opening of Nemesis, that is likely the marketing draw for that season.

It makes far more sense to have the next large investment open in 2025.

It’s not all about rushing to get things open for the sake of it. They need to maximise return on investment.
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Is a re-opening of a 30 year old ride with what sound like minor changes really a major marketing draw?

I take your point but I’m not convinced that on its own it’s really that bigger deal - if it had been shut for years or something then yeah, but one season seems a bit of a stretch.

I think NST reopening would be a bigger deal marketing wise based on the fact it would have been shut for (at least) 8 years by the time it reopened.
 
Matt N said:
The planning application for the retrack expressly stated that no major thematic changes would be made, and that the refurbishment project would simply see the existing theming maintained. That application heavily implied that the work on Nemesis is 99% structural.
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A couple of things spring to mind which you might want to take into account.

The first is a topic for another thread... the Nemesis retrack has not had a planning application, they got a certificate of lawfulness to class the work as maintenance rather than a new build, so they don't need planning permission. The difference in wording might be small, but it means that Merlin aren't constrained in the same way.
Matt N said:
With that in mind, Merlin may well have wanted to cut their losses and bring Horizon forward to 2024 to compensate. I know that it’s in Coaster Corner, but I think its indoor nature could well make it far less of a planning issue than Exodus; just look at how quickly it’s sailed from public consultation to planning application! Exodus and Amazon both took 3 months from their initial consultations to get the full planning application in, while this has taken less than a month.
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Project Horizon hasn't had a consultation. It had an exhibition with very limited information given out. I think most people were expecting something more comparable to what happened for Exodus and Amazon, but that hasn't happened, so comparing these timelines is likely to lead to false impressions of what is actually happening at Alton.

There is a real possibility of an application for the site in question to be rejected, there are several elements that mean it may be one of the more controversial planning applications they have submitted for quite some time. It does make me wonder if Merlin are getting planning permission in on this site now, so that they can either a) weather a longer planning period like Exodus or b) switch to plan B if needed and still get an attraction open for 2025.
 
It may be worth remembering that Toyland Tours (albeit a retheme) opened alongside Nemesis - having the return of the parks biggest ride with something completely new - even if it does open later on in the season - would be great marketing in my opinion.
 
For UK enthusiasts the nemesis retrack will be a big draw, however we are like 1% at most of the actual attendance and most of us have Merlin annual passes.

However would they be able to put in a better coaster than nemesis in that plot of land, I highly doubt it, atleast Merlin are actually spending many many millions to keep this iconic attraction.

We have a new Legoland coaster, nemesis retrack, B&M wing coaster, project exodus, project horizon all on the cards for the UK do you think they would only open one per year?

It's very unlikely without a miracle that exodus opens in 2024 now unless we see a very quick response from the secretary of state or the EA backs down (unlikely) sounds like they only respond or go in their offices on a annual basis

Project horizon I'm guessing they'll start work next year towards the end of the season for a 2025 opening considering they said construction will take roughly 12-14 months I believe, I'm guessing horizon won't be on a thrill seeker level it'll be a more family thrill attraction whereas exodus is a thrill ride, so if they do open the same year they won't be competing too much.
 
I do feel Project Horizon is still a 2025 project, however with Nemesis as much as we like it, a retrack reopening might not quite get the hype around unless there was a clever marketing campaign I've said before that lasts the whole 2023 season of the Nemesis alien 'escaping' the pit and going on a Godzilla style rampage across the UK with each month showing it in a different city causing destruction in which could have a Pokemon style app for the GP to go on a manhunt to hunt the creature in their area. This would all end a month before the 2024 season kicks off in which Nemesis is back in the pit and sealed in place again...if done well it honestly would be one of the most genius marketing campaigns ever done.

Anyway to get back on topic, I have a feeling of another ride for 2024 but not being Horizons. Maybe Towers could decide to add a flat ride to have an additional attraction to open for the year...return of Ripsaw anyone? Could honestly fit into the Nemesis return build up and marketing as the return another classic could be very welcomed by the GP, however the nostalgia thing might only work if the retheme of Duel/HH is a success and we might see Towers go down this road...Lord knows if Project Horizon is return of Black Hole and the Dungeons is replaced by the return of Toyland Tours and that would have us enthusiasts on cloud 9 but I'm getting ahead of myself. :p
 
I think it’s incredibly likely this is a 2025 attraction. As Squiggs says this is probably the most sensitive area to develop outside of a cross valley coaster and the plans will get objections from various quarters (certainly the usual local objections plus potential issues from English Heritage), an indoor coaster will also have a longer build time as you have the building foundations, the building and the ride to construct, plus this includes a new plaza as well.

The fact the environment agency are ok with it means nothing as Towers isn’t in a flood plane unlike Thorpe.
 
QTXAdsy said:
a retrack reopening might not quite get the hype around unless there was a clever marketing campaign I've said before that lasts the whole 2023 season of the Nemesis alien 'escaping' the pit and going on a Godzilla style rampage across the UK with each month showing it in a different city causing destruction in which could have a Pokemon style app for the GP to go on a manhunt to hunt the creature in their area. This would all end a month before the 2024 season kicks off in which Nemesis is back in the pit and sealed in place again...if done well it honestly would be one of the most genius marketing campaigns ever done.
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Wow, that’s…a lot.

I would imagine a campaign more along the lines of ‘hey, remember that cool rollercoaster you liked at Alton Towers? It’s back, go ride it’.

It’s never going to generate as much hype as a brand new ride, but there is affection for Nemesis beyond enthusiasts, you only have to look at the comments and retweets from the closure announcement to see that. So there is mileage in a campaign to encourage repeat visits and get some ROI for this project.
 
With this now going in for full planning application how soon can we expect documents to be uploaded to give us some more insight into what is being done?
 
Melon3009 said:
With this now going in for full planning application how soon can we expect documents to be uploaded to give us some more insight into what is being done?
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As it's an indoor attraction, any plans won't necessarily show what's inside. They will most likely just show the building itself.
 
I suspect the only hints we might get are general concern mitigations. Consider how it was explained what coaster exodus's sound was measured from for reference etc. There might be more talk of sound systems, expected volume and so on.
 
I think the documents might provide more hints than you expect, even though this is an indoor attraction.

For instance, they talk about a “hipped roof”… we’ll probably find out just how hipped that roof is. I know that sounds extremely inconsequential, but the extent to which the roof is hipped could tell us a surprising amount about the type of attraction being built.

A 20m building with 18m of straight wall and a very low angle hipped roof will be able to accommodate a very different type of attraction to a 20m pyramid with a very high angle hipped roof and less than 10m of straight wall (a la TWD at Thorpe). Both of those building types technically fulfil the description of having a “hipped roof”, but they are very different in volume and the range of attraction types they can fit are very different.

They might also provide hints about the wider new area and what to expect from that. I know that Adventureland 4-11 is a GDO area, so the park likely won’t be too committal, but the drawing definitely showed a long path leading from near the Alton Towers Dungeon up to the new attraction building.

Furthermore, we will almost definitely get told about the exterior styling, including the facade, which could provide hints about the theme.
 
Remember that when planning permission is granted, it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll start work as soon as it's approved. There could be conditions attached that mean additional submissions have to be made prior to construction starting. It's almost a dead cert that materials have to be reviewed before construction can begin, there could be more on top of that based on the location for this attraction.

Also, don't forget that when planning permission is approved, it allows a period of 3 years from the date permission is given for construction to begin. Now of course I'm not saying it'll take them 3 years to crack on with it, but I'm just suggesting the speed of the planning permission going in doesn't necessarily equate to construction starting immediately after approval. As Squiggs rightly suggested, the "controversial" area may play a part in them wanting to go through the planning process much earlier than usual too.

The main hurdle to this project though as I've said before is likely to be the availability of the hardware needed to get the ride built. Whether that improves by the time construction starts remains to be seen, but we've already seen plenty delayed projects in recent months already. So perhaps another reason they want to get planning permission nailed down so early is so they can get the finalised orders in for the hardware as soon as possible.
 
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