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Britain and the EU

So a full referendum after re-negotiating IF the Tories win the next election. So looks good now and won't happen in the future.

There really is that many mistakes in my posts?! Damn this Tapatalk milarky! :)
 
Desperate ploy by Cameron to try and secure wandering right-wing votes at the next election.
 
I just wanted to share this interesting article written by Green MP Caroline Lucas.

Caroline Lucas said:
David Cameron today set out his plans to renegotiate Britain’s role in Europe and then hold a referendum. But not for another five years. And only if the Conservatives win an outright majority.

In other words, he wants to bury the issue of Europe until after the next election, as a way of blackmailing the public into a Tory vote. He also intends to blackmail his EU counterparts with the threat of an in/out referendum in the important negotiations about our relationship.

I have consistently supported a referendum on our membership of the EU – not because I am anti-EU, but because I’m pro-democracy. It’s right people should have a say on an issue of such importance to their everyday lives.

No one under the age of 55 has had an opportunity to vote on our relationship with Europe, in spite of the fact the three largest parties have all promised EU referendums of one sort or another in recent years. To continue to oppose one undermines trust in the political process, and breeds anger and resentment.

But let’s ensure the debate in the referendum isn’t just about pro EU versus anti-EU: far more relevant is, what kind of EU?

Green Party MEPs have long been building support for radical reform of the EU, increasing its transparency and accountability, and refocusing its objectives on co-operation and environmental sustainability rather than competition and free trade.

And let’s not indulge in political gamesmanship by saying “yes to a referendum – but not yet”. Instead of trying to fix the timing of a vote to maximise party advantage, let’s put the national interest first.

Postponing a referendum until 2018 will commit us to five years of economic uncertainty – with all the damage that will cause to UK industry and inward investment. It will also mean another five years of bitter political feuding and mounting media-driven hostility to the EU, poisoning our relationship with other member countries and limiting our influence.

The truth is we won’t be able to make progress until the in/out decision is resolved one way or another.
Far from being a distraction from our economic and environmental woes, our relationship with Europe is critical to their resolution. It is at EU level proposals for serious banking reform are being made and suggestions for a Financial Transaction Tax are being taken forward.

Crucially, it is also where steps are being taken to bring about tougher climate policy within the 27 member states, and to influence the policy of others worldwide.

That’s why, in a referendum campaign, the Greens will fight for continued membership of the EU, but – with equal vigour – will make the case for wider EU reform. It is a case that already has considerable support amongst other member states.

During that campaign, we will set out a far more compelling vision of the EU’s role and purpose, and aim to inspire people about an EU which can genuinely spread peace and sustainability, and promote democracy and human rights.
This is very different to David Cameron’s outdated vision of the EU as little more than a free trade club. It’s about creating a new, better Europe which will put people’s security and quality of life ahead of the profits of banks and big business – and which can truly rise to the challenges of the 21st century.
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http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/01/caroline-lucas-yes-to-a-referendum-yes-to-a-better-europe/

I have to say, when put to me like this, I can come to no other conclusion than not having the referendum is wrong as it denies democracy to take it's course. Of course I still stand strong on thinking that staying in is vital, and agree with Caroline's support for reform.
 
I didn't think Cameron's speech was as needless as I suspected, and reckon that personally, he would probably rather be in, even under current conditions. He won't be able to properly pull this off though, and the whole thing has just highlighted the growing dissaray amongst the right. Nasty tactics in all.
 
I have a suspicion that maybe what's happening here is that the top Tories know that leaving the EU would be a massive bollocks-up for us. So they're calling this referendum, knowing that they can utilise the full force of the three major party's campaigning budgets to secure a yes vote, and then make this in-out issue go away for another few decades. :)
 
Meat Pie said:
I just wanted to share this interesting article written by Green MP Caroline Lucas.

Caroline Lucas said:
Long quote is long - and rightly so, and makes lots of sense, and I love Caroline Lucas she is marvelous
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I have to say, when put to me like this, I can come to no other conclusion than not having the referendum is wrong as it denies democracy to take it's course. Of course I still stand strong on thinking that staying in is vital, and agree with Caroline's support for reform.
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Caroline is living in an ideal world, where we get facts, not politics to analyse in a sensible, measured fashion.

Glad she called that bumbling buffoon out on his obvious, and quite frankly disgraceful, politicking!

Cameron, you don't keep your election promises son, so do us all a favour, and do one! I have seldom heard such a blatantly desperate move to attract cheap votes. Now, if he said, before the next election I'd listen more - but after? If you don't think this would turn into another AV farce (and no Poison Tom, I don't mean Aston Villa lol!) then you need to read Politics for Dummies and regale yourself with the feast of knowledge that is our "democracy".

I'm calling you out Cameron. I am glad Caroline had the Kahunas to speak it as it is, even though I am not a Green member, they are winning me over bit by bit as a genuine force to consider.

Cameron is an outdated, closet right, anti-Europe fool. He has reneged on more election promises than any politician I can remember - and that takes some doing! And I trust him about as far as I could throw that smug grinning, Eton elitist fool.

Imagine if he had a Pinocchio nose? They'd be selling replicas in Anne Summers!

This debate is pointless, not because the people here shouldn't be discussing or debating it, but because if you honestly think Cam would follow through with this in an honest, straight up, facts and figures pragmatic fashion, you should be banned from voting.

How this man is still in charge of our Country, and his bumbling sidekick I will never know.
 
Sam said:
I have a suspicion that maybe what's happening here is that the top Tories know that leaving the EU would be a massive <censored>s-up for us. So they're calling this referendum, knowing that they can utilise the full force of the three major party's campaigning budgets to secure a yes vote, and then make this in-out issue go away for another few decades. :)
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Very intelligent analysis.


-Sent from a mobile phone-
 
Personally I don't think the EU is a good idea for Britain, generally because Britain aren't friends with many other countries in the union. I think, Britain will leave the EU in a few years time, then make much stronger connections with America and Australia, to make it easier for us to travel over to their countries, and them to travel to ours. Us & America have always been friends, we help them out in crisis, they help us. Although the EU is a good idea, like you said Brussels have WAY too much power.

Britain made a fantastic job of the Olympics, so if we can do a good job on a major event, can we do a good job of keeping our country from falling? You also have to think about the recession, if we leave the EU and people still in the EU find it harder to come to Britain, our business will drop, unemployment will rise, making Britain worse.

So if we pull out of the EU, we need to make connections with other countries pretty quickly in order to survive.
 
We are friends with European countries, in the political sense. It isn't about who you most want to pop round for tea to.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
 
Blaze said:
I think getting 15 times more out than we put in is a good idea for Britain.
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I don't know how you work that out? Perhaps a little evidence might help. I'll post my own when I have time.
 
kydog1299 said:
...then make much stronger connections with America and Australia, to make it easier for us to travel over to their countries, and them to travel to ours. Us & America have always been friends, we help them out in crisis, they help us.
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You only have to look at Obama's recent comment to see what the US thinks of that idea. They would rather the UK looked to its own near neighbours. The US is one of the most protectionist nations in the world, and it can afford to be, with 300 million people and most of the economic resources it needs within its own borders (or within the borders of regimes it props up for its own ends worldwide if it's a really important resource, like oil). What can we bring to their party?

There are also new kids on the economic block now that the US, Canada and Australia think it's (rightly) more in their interests to woo; namely Brazil, China and India. The balance of focus is shifting East and Britain needs to find a way of getting in on this. My own view is that being part of a huge trading block, like the EU, is one way of making sure we retain economic clout and relevance in the world.

Britain made a fantastic job of the Olympics, so if we can do a good job on a major event, can we do a good job of keeping our country from falling? You also have to think about the recession, if we leave the EU and people still in the EU find it harder to come to Britain, our business will drop, unemployment will rise, making Britain worse. So if we pull out of the EU, we need to make connections with other countries pretty quickly in order to survive.
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You seem to be acknowledging your argument is flawed here. Moreover, the idea that a good piece of project management for a one-off event is evidence of the ability to run a perpetually-continuing show like the economy is the same is rather weak. It isn't the same, and you only have to look at the utter fist Cameron and Osborne are making of what they laughably call the "Recovery" to see the difference.
 
BigT said:
... so I can make up my mind for the forthcoming referendum.
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Don't hold your breath!

Here we go:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html

So Blaze, how do you come to the conclusion we get back 14 times more than we put in?

I'm not advocating leaving or staying in, I just want a balanced discussion about it so I can make up my mind for the forthcoming referendum.
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OH! And that site looks remarkably like the financial pages of that bastion of unbiased reporting the Daily Mail. On the other hand, Channel 4 has this (perhaps what Blaze was referring to):

http://www.channel4.com/news/eu-budget-what-britain-pays-and-where-it-goes

Now I know that we can't really rely on Channel 4 News for an unbiased point of view either, but it does at least have the courtesy to acknowledge that the questions isn't as black-and-white as the Heil would have you believe - I think that's what you'd call a more balanced debate really.
 
I wasn't, there was just a pinch of sarcasm in that sentence.

Edit:
Also the article you point too somehow includes what we sell to the EU.
Mmm. Surely we're not that stupid to think the EU will suddenly stop buying are products are we.
 
Nearly six years old, but worth adding to the debate:

"Europhiles and Eurosceptics can argue until the cows come home about whether membership of the EU brings more benefits or disadvantages. But both sides can agree that many, if not most, of the laws passed in the 27 member states stem from EU legislation. To mark the 50th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome on 25 March, we note here 10 things the EU has done for the ordinary citizen."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6455879.stm
 
BigT said:
Mmm. Surely we're not that stupid to think the EU will suddenly stop buying are products are we.
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I'll ignore the patronising tone of your question. I'm not sure where it came from, as I certainly wasn't patronising you. Merely pointing to another article which seems to acknowledge the many facets of the debate that your more-biased one didn't.

Yes, I am aware that EFTA and the EU are different things and that withdrawing from one does not mean withdrawing from the other (although it might, which means that we'd have to then re-join EFTA, probably a formality - I don't actually know). What you present by your derision is that the whole of that article must be bunkum because they include something that would probably happen anyway, but that's not actually how it works.
 
I'm not quite sure how my article can be biased when it is factually correct, just because you don't like the newspaper that the website happens to be part of.
I can find you one from the Guardian with the same facts written in it if that fits better with ideology.
 
Did you ignore those exact same facts alluded to in the C4 report?

The difference is that there were other facts reported at C4 shine a different light on them and gives a broader perspective thereby.

So yes, I am more sniffy about the Mail article as it gives a narrow and biased report, rather a broader and biased one.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
 
Simon said:
Did you ignore those exact same facts alluded to in the C4 report?

The difference is that there were other facts reported at C4 shine a different light on them and gives a broader perspective thereby.

So yes, I am more sniffy about the Mail article as it gives a narrow and biased report, rather a broader and biased one.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
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I wasn't really interested in the article, more the figures as these give an accurate breakdown of how much it has cost to be part of the EU for the last few years.
Any other figure is purely speculative as nobody knows for sure an accurate indication of how much we gain or lose by being members.
The same arguments were wheeled out when Blair was trying to convince us to go into the Euro, it doesn't stop Europe trading with us now because we don't use the same currency does it.

Like I say I only trust accurate figures quoted in reports, otherwise you just follow the opinions of the journalist writing the report whereas I prefer to my make up my own.
 
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