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Electric Cars - The Future?

There's two types of hydrogen car - those that burn hydrogen in an engine similar to conventional cars and those that convert hydrogen to electricity in a fuel cell, which then drives a motor similar to those in electric cars.

The problem with hydrogen is it's relatively difficult to make it renewably - most hydrogen is currently made by breaking down hydrocarbons. Clean hydrogen (from electrolysis of water) takes a lot of electricity to produce, so using it in cars only makes sense if battery tech doesn't improve. With better batteries you may as well just use electric cars and cut out the middle man.
 
I'm not sure it's the range that's the biggest issue or the rare earth materials. If they can grow batteries internal or something like that, it should solve some of the issues.
 
I’ve just bought a new car and tried an EV for 3 days (VW ID3). I enjoyed the driving experience with the very smooth ride and lack of any gear change. I also like the thought of less moving parts in the engine and reports of electric cars doing 200-300,000 miles with minimal issues. But I didn’t like having to wait hours for it to charge, or the 40 miles that were instantly lost on a cold morning when you turn the heaters on. Realistic range was about 150 miles with electrical items turned on which you would normally use.

I didn’t like having to wait at a public charger for it to become available, or the fear that when you get there with minimal charge left that it would not be working.

There is also the issue of cost and with most EVs being over £40k they also attract the increased vehicle tax fee for 5 years after buying it. From a tax point of view there is no incentive to go green anymore.

So I’ve gone self charging Hybrid and bought a Toyota. Very happy with it so far and half my journeys are petrol and the other running on electric only. It charges through braking and doing down hill. It’s very smooth, cost about half of what the equivalent EV would cost with 10yr warranty and 15yr warranty on the battery. The battery is much smaller than a full EV and sits under the passenger seats so easily replaced and relatively safe from accidents.

Is EV the future ….. I’m not sure. EVs are huge, they weigh a lot and are written off by insurance firms for minor bumps because of potential damage to the battery packs and the risk of fire. I’m not convinced by the production or recycling of the battery packs being more green than a fossil fuel vehicle.

There is also the problem with charging. Imagine a future where 90% off devices going to Alton are EVs and if just half of these would need a charge while parked up are Alton really going to install 5,000 charging points (rough guess).

How will people living in cities in apartment blocks charge their vehicles? What about public car parks? The lack of infrastructure in services where you could have 50/100 cars on a peak day queuing to use 2 or 3 charging points.

There are three options as I see it :

1. Battery range will no doubt increase as the devices are modernised, and I think once the normal range from an EV is 400+ miles on a single charge then more people would consider one.

2. Produce EVs with a standardised replaceable battery pack. Each battery pack can do 200 miles or so and by popping in to a “fuel station” you can take out out, pop it in a charger and take one that already been charged. Pop it in be vehicle and off you go. Would take 5 minutes.

3. Hydrogen production is refined and an efficient way of producing it is found. Existing fuel pumps and tanks could be converted to use the hydrogen and cars would refuel as they do now using the existing infrastructure. On a similar note, home gas boilers can easily be converted to run on hydrogen using the existing gas pipes in the ground.


For me personally, EV isn’t an option at the moment, I don’t think the technology or the infrastructure is there. Add to this the huge depreciation EVs are seeing at the moment, buying an EV is no cheaper or greener than a modern fuel efficient petrol car at the moment. My brother works in a main dealer and tells me many drivers are trading in their EVs, losing a lot of money and buying petrol or hybrid again.

Unless the infrastructure massively increases, and car prices massively drop, I can’t see EVs being viable At the moment or the future. I am hopeful hydrogen can be an option as it can use the existing fuel stations and be topped up quickly…. Who knows, we have another 10 or so years for companies to modernise and find a way forward.
 
GaryH said:
I’ve just bought a new car and tried an EV for 3 days (VW ID3). I enjoyed the driving experience with the very smooth ride and lack of any gear change. I also like the thought of less moving parts in the engine and reports of electric cars doing 200-300,000 miles with minimal issues. But I didn’t like having to wait hours for it to charge, or the 40 miles that were instantly lost on a cold morning when you turn the heaters on. Realistic range was about 150 miles with electrical items turned on which you would normally use.

I didn’t like having to wait at a public charger for it to become available, or the fear that when you get there with minimal charge left that it would not be working.

There is also the issue of cost and with most EVs being over £40k they also attract the increased vehicle tax fee for 5 years after buying it. From a tax point of view there is no incentive to go green anymore.

So I’ve gone self charging Hybrid and bought a Toyota. Very happy with it so far and half my journeys are petrol and the other running on electric only. It charges through braking and doing down hill. It’s very smooth, cost about half of what the equivalent EV would cost with 10yr warranty and 15yr warranty on the battery. The battery is much smaller than a full EV and sits under the passenger seats so easily replaced and relatively safe from accidents.

Is EV the future ….. I’m not sure. EVs are huge, they weigh a lot and are written off by insurance firms for minor bumps because of potential damage to the battery packs and the risk of fire. I’m not convinced by the production or recycling of the battery packs being more green than a fossil fuel vehicle.

There is also the problem with charging. Imagine a future where 90% off devices going to Alton are EVs and if just half of these would need a charge while parked up are Alton really going to install 5,000 charging points (rough guess).

How will people living in cities in apartment blocks charge their vehicles? What about public car parks? The lack of infrastructure in services where you could have 50/100 cars on a peak day queuing to use 2 or 3 charging points.

There are three options as I see it :

1. Battery range will no doubt increase as the devices are modernised, and I think once the normal range from an EV is 400+ miles on a single charge then more people would consider one.

2. Produce EVs with a standardised replaceable battery pack. Each battery pack can do 200 miles or so and by popping in to a “fuel station” you can take out out, pop it in a charger and take one that already been charged. Pop it in be vehicle and off you go. Would take 5 minutes.

3. Hydrogen production is refined and an efficient way of producing it is found. Existing fuel pumps and tanks could be converted to use the hydrogen and cars would refuel as they do now using the existing infrastructure. On a similar note, home gas boilers can easily be converted to run on hydrogen using the existing gas pipes in the ground.


For me personally, EV isn’t an option at the moment, I don’t think the technology or the infrastructure is there. Add to this the huge depreciation EVs are seeing at the moment, buying an EV is no cheaper or greener than a modern fuel efficient petrol car at the moment. My brother works in a main dealer and tells me many drivers are trading in their EVs, losing a lot of money and buying petrol or hybrid again.

Unless the infrastructure massively increases, and car prices massively drop, I can’t see EVs being viable At the moment or the future. I am hopeful hydrogen can be an option as it can use the existing fuel stations and be topped up quickly…. Who knows, we have another 10 or so years for companies to modernise and find a way forward.
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Do you not feel that a lot of your issue with them would have been solved as soon as you bought rather than test drove as you would presumably get a home charger installed?

We now have 2 electric cars and I've never really had to worry or wait to charge either of them, I can do my daily commute on 30% and my wife can do hers on 10% so we just have one on charge every night, it takes 5 seconds to plug in with a tethered home changer and will put 40% charge in either car within the cheap night rate 4hrs.

We have done a handful of decent length trips (Uttoxeter to Newcastle, Surrey, Gatwick etc) where we have had to use public chargers (otherwise home is more than sufficient). I prefer destination charging as I can leave it whilst I go about my plans (for Newcastle we just parked and charged in a park and ride, Surrey in the hotel carpark) but on the rare occasion I have had to use high power chargers (5-6 times in 7 months) we have just plugged in whilst having our usual toilet/snack stop, the biggest issue I have had was needing to pop out the services last week as my car charged quicker than my McDonalds arrived and I didn't want to put too much in on Service Station prices (overpriced like the food and petrol) :sweatsmile:
 
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I'll be replacing my car in the next couple of years, and there just doesn't seem to be many vehicles out there that would suit my needs.

I'm used to driving diesels that are quick off the mark, smooth and refined at motorway cruising speed, and get a good 700 miles out of a tank. I don't do loads of urban driving. I walk to work mostly, and get the train in to town locally. I need the car for journeys father afield. So my current set-up is the most environmentally friendly, practical, and economical for my needs. But all diesels now appear to be woeful underpowered units.

Maybe a petrol hybrid is on the cards, but that's going to drink fuel on the motorway. An EV is clearly not suitable are far too expensive. Long distance rail travel is eye wateringly expensive, especially with a family in toe. Most of my longer distance driving is theme parks or visiting relatives, where train travel is not convenient. No station near Thorpe, Alton, Drayton, Flamingo, Oakwood, and Blackpool takes something silly like 5+ hours with 3 changes and won't get me there on time.

It just seems like there still isn't a solution in place all these years later without having to both drastically change the national infrastructure, or the way we live. I'd happily have an EV sat on charge as a backup in case I need to go somewhere and just travel everywhere else on the train. But it's just not practical.
 
I think the hybrid as described by Gary is the best option for a lot of things right now. Petrol for the longer trips like to Alton Towers, electric for the shorter ones to the supermarket or similar (when you are buying more than be carried so can't walk).

I don't think we are close to having enough destination chargers so that electric is a decent long-distance option. But for most people who don't drive outside of their town often electric should cover most of that.
 
GaryH said:
I’ve just bought a new car and tried an EV for 3 days (VW ID3). I enjoyed the driving experience with the very smooth ride and lack of any gear change. I also like the thought of less moving parts in the engine and reports of electric cars doing 200-300,000 miles with minimal issues. But I didn’t like having to wait hours for it to charge, or the 40 miles that were instantly lost on a cold morning when you turn the heaters on. Realistic range was about 150 miles with electrical items turned on which you would normally use.

I didn’t like having to wait at a public charger for it to become available, or the fear that when you get there with minimal charge left that it would not be working.

There is also the issue of cost and with most EVs being over £40k they also attract the increased vehicle tax fee for 5 years after buying it. From a tax point of view there is no incentive to go green anymore.

So I’ve gone self charging Hybrid and bought a Toyota. Very happy with it so far and half my journeys are petrol and the other running on electric only. It charges through braking and doing down hill. It’s very smooth, cost about half of what the equivalent EV would cost with 10yr warranty and 15yr warranty on the battery. The battery is much smaller than a full EV and sits under the passenger seats so easily replaced and relatively safe from accidents.

Is EV the future ….. I’m not sure. EVs are huge, they weigh a lot and are written off by insurance firms for minor bumps because of potential damage to the battery packs and the risk of fire. I’m not convinced by the production or recycling of the battery packs being more green than a fossil fuel vehicle.

There is also the problem with charging. Imagine a future where 90% off devices going to Alton are EVs and if just half of these would need a charge while parked up are Alton really going to install 5,000 charging points (rough guess).

How will people living in cities in apartment blocks charge their vehicles? What about public car parks? The lack of infrastructure in services where you could have 50/100 cars on a peak day queuing to use 2 or 3 charging points.

There are three options as I see it :

1. Battery range will no doubt increase as the devices are modernised, and I think once the normal range from an EV is 400+ miles on a single charge then more people would consider one.

2. Produce EVs with a standardised replaceable battery pack. Each battery pack can do 200 miles or so and by popping in to a “fuel station” you can take out out, pop it in a charger and take one that already been charged. Pop it in be vehicle and off you go. Would take 5 minutes.

3. Hydrogen production is refined and an efficient way of producing it is found. Existing fuel pumps and tanks could be converted to use the hydrogen and cars would refuel as they do now using the existing infrastructure. On a similar note, home gas boilers can easily be converted to run on hydrogen using the existing gas pipes in the ground.


For me personally, EV isn’t an option at the moment, I don’t think the technology or the infrastructure is there. Add to this the huge depreciation EVs are seeing at the moment, buying an EV is no cheaper or greener than a modern fuel efficient petrol car at the moment. My brother works in a main dealer and tells me many drivers are trading in their EVs, losing a lot of money and buying petrol or hybrid again.

Unless the infrastructure massively increases, and car prices massively drop, I can’t see EVs being viable At the moment or the future. I am hopeful hydrogen can be an option as it can use the existing fuel stations and be topped up quickly…. Who knows, we have another 10 or so years for companies to modernise and find a way forward.
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This is pretty much how I see it too.

In short, a petrol car currently works for everyone, an EV only works for some and as it stands the solutions to change that feel a long way off.
 
The company I work for uses Tesla's. They seem like hard work. Not only does constantly need to tell you that other cars are on the road, but it's the needing to stop and charge them on journeys over 200 mile. Less of it's cold. The charging situation away from towns is depressing.

Love the idea of an electric. But, the technology and infrastructure just isn't there at the mo. Nevermind the price of actually buying one.
 
Slugjc said:
The company I work for uses Tesla's. They seem like hard work. Not only does constantly need to tell you that other cars are on the road, but it's the needing to stop and charge them on journeys over 200 mile. Less of it's cold. The charging situation away from towns is depressing.

Love the idea of an electric. But, the technology and infrastructure just isn't there at the mo. Nevermind the price of actually buying one.
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200 miles is Manchester to London, if you regularly drive more than that distance without needing a a toilet and food break then agreed, EVs are not for you.
 
evilcod said:
200 miles is Manchester to London, if you regularly drive more than that distance without needing a a toilet and food break then agreed, EVs are not for you.
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200 miles is the maximum though and in real life it's not happening. Nor do i imagine people typically would attempt a journey where they might make it to their destination with 1% left as it's too risky. So the range is actually say 80-90% of the maximum depending on individual risk appetite minus the other variables (weather, driving style etc).

Alton Towers is actually a good example for me. It's approximately 150 miles and on a weekend I can probably do it in around 2.5 hours so don't usually need to stop and can easily do both ways without refuelling. Even if AT add chargers, are you guaranteed to get one? Do you have to reserve them? Would likely be cutting it fine either way so EV is probably adding 30+ minutes to the journey plus expense. A first world problem and an atypical journey for most people but overall it's a downgrade in experience for (currently) a greater layout with added uncertainty.
 
I'd imagine you would need to charge and then return to move it for the next person. Failing that, they are fully booked over the time you there. Will be a faff.
 
Driving to Towers is essential. 150 miles there, usually don't stop but if I do it's for a wee only, or to grab a bacon sandwich eaten in the car as the journey is long enough as it is, and to avoid having to eat whilst in the park of course. What if it's cold and I need the heating on? What if the EV isn't brand new and the batteries have degraded, now a real problem as they age? What if I can't charge at the park? Thorpe Park, 128 miles, same situation.

Blackpool, 225 miles just to get there so unlikely to make it. Flamingo Land is planned for this year (first visit), 272 miles. Definitely not making that.

I can get a fuel efficient, reliable and low mileage Mercedes, Volvo, or Volkswagen diesel that'll perform well for 300,000 miles plus, second hand for under £25k. I can fill it up in minutes and it'll get me just about anywhere in the country without having to do so regularly. For that money, I'd probably get a pokey little EV with a degraded battery that would only be good for pottering around locally.

It's not that I don't want to get rid of internal combustion, and that I'm not willing to make compromises. Just did school run and my car barely warmed up by the time I got home, would have been so much nicer in a smooth and quiet EV. They're part of the solution of course, but not the solution. And that's my concern. We'd be foolish to put all our eggs in one basket. Fossil fuels need to go, but the touted alternative of EV's isn't even in the same ball park in terms as what we have now in terms of practically. They're unlikely to be any time soon either, so it's wise to be looking for alternative technologies.
 
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You can get a top of the range, all leather and electric volvo mega shed auto 850cd for a grand or two, which provides an eight foot bed right down the passenger side.
Absolute stunner.
And thirty five to the gallon on a run.
 
rob666 said:
You can get a top of the range, all leather and electric volvo mega shed auto 850cd for a grand or two, which provides an eight foot bed right down the passenger side.
Absolute stunner.
And thirty five to the gallon on a run.
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I was looking at an XC90 the other day as a family car. Now I can walk to work, can get to town on the train, and the little teenage sods are getting bikes so they can get their own lazy backsides to school, it'll be something that'll mainly be parked on the drive to be reserved for long distance trips with the family when my daughter leaves primary school.

Swear by Mercedes, Volkswagen, and Volvo diesels. Smooth, punchy, reliable, last forever and economical. That Jaguar Land Rover engine I own now is terrible. Great on fuel, (my record is 82mpg on a trip from Bradford back to home, cruise control set to 60 all the way back) and £20 per year road tax. Rattly, clanky, unreliable, hates cold starts and doesn't like cheap fuel.
 
I've lost count of how many times I've almost been run over by silent Teslas. Not so bad when crossing the road, as I'm not an idiot and look around me. But in car parks they are a menace!
 
I've noticed now many of the worst drivers are all switching to electric for the rapid acceleration so they've definitely gotten over with what you'd think would be one of their hardest audiences
 
John said:
The problem with hydrogen is it's relatively difficult to make it renewably - most hydrogen is currently made by breaking down hydrocarbons. Clean hydrogen (from electrolysis of water) takes a lot of electricity to produce, so using it in cars only makes sense if battery tech doesn't improve. With better batteries you may as well just use electric cars and cut out the middle man.
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The irony there being that hydrogen is by far, the most abundant element in the Universe. By a huge margin in fact. 74% all all matter in the universe is estimated to be hydrogen. It is just very difficult to get at it from our small rock I guess. For now.
 
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Electric cars certainly ain't the future. Rishi Sunak might think so, but the experts don't. Why?

To start, Space:

Electric cars offer no solution to creating additional capacity on our roads. They're an innovation that's somewhat more environmentally friendly (notice the caveat) but the M6 will only ever have so many lanes. Why not add more lanes you ask? Because adding more lanes creates "induced demand" over time, which takes you back to square one. "Just one more lane and I'll fix traffic!" - said every US highway engineer, yet look at the problems they face. Not only this, but by and large electric cars are bigger than their petrol/diesel counterparts, attributed to the additional space required to house the battery, and the added weight, which brings me onto point no. 2:

Road Maintenance:

With bigger, heavier cars guess what that means for the roadway? That's right, more of those dreaded potholes! You can already see this today, particularly in inner-city areas where maintenance budgets are lower than that of motorways/dual carriageways. The sheer weight of the vehicles which can be attributed to the battery, puts extra pressure on the road surface. Okay so the fix is we spend more on road upkeep? Alright sure, but we're now adding more to our carbon emissions output to a)produce the materials, b)transport them and c)install them.

Energy Source & Charging Infrastructure

Your car is powered by electricity, great! That's definitely better than the diesel/petrol alternative, but that energy has yo be generated somewhere. We're in the paradoxical situation of wanting to electrify everything, but not yet living up to our responsibilities to produce electricity sustainably. If we want to provide electricity for all these vehicles, we're going to have to accept out views being disturbed by wind turbines, or local fields being turned into solar farms. Or we invest in nuclear, but that's a whole new can of worms!

Better Alternatives:

Cars are inherently a very poor use of space. More often than not a 5 seater car only has one person in it. Compare this to a bus where most seats are filled. An even better use of space is cycling. Now I accept this isn't for everyone and is most definitely limited to shorter trips, but nevertheless for short journeys is far more efficient. I love to use this graphic below when describing this usage of space:

2020-01-20_6-41-16.png

This isn't to say cars don't have their place. If you live rurally then chances are your local area is never going to have the critical mass to support a public transport system and you're probably not going to want to cycle 10 miles to your nearest town centre!

That said, in most part this country is densely populated, and with the right investment in sustainable transport infrastructure: cycling lanes, buses, car-sharing clubs, and crucially trains for long-distance travel, we can move a far greater amount of people using far less energy, far less space and reach net-zero targets.

Take HS2. Terribly marketed, as if speed is all people care about. In fact it was designed to take the fast trains of our (very extensive) existing railway network giving them their own pair of tracks, thereby freeing up space on the busiest mainlines for for local services so people can actually rely on sustainable alternatives to cars travel, and actually find a seat! Not only this, but it was to also free up space to move freight by rail, which again is far more efficient than by road (and creates more road space without the need for expansion which is no solution anyway) Obviously our car and helicopter obsessed prime minister ditched it in an act of short-sighted thinking and failed to acknowledge advice from experts. In a great many cases people drive because they have to, not because they want to. Give them a more attractive, reliable, sustainable alternative and more often than not they'll switch!

So all in it's less a question of "are electric cars the future?" and more "what role should electric cars have in our future?"

We have mountains of evidence to show car travel is the most inefficient and environmentally damaging method of travel (including electric cars) and we have options to invest in sustainable, efficient alternatives where applicable. Doing so is nothing more than a political choice. For large infrastructure projects like HS2, funding comes from a "grant in aid" to the government, which essentially means we borrow from ourselves (The Bank of England) against national debt, on the basis of seeing economic returns on the project that money is borrowed for. Contrary to what this government has been pumping out, you cannot "reallocate" those funds to spend on other things.

To sign off, with this being within an Alton Towers geared forum, it'd be criminal for me not to mention what alternatives here might be:

"People drive to the park because it's easy and there's no alternative" - mostly true, with the exception of a few coach services and those brave enough to risk missing a bus connection at Stoke station!

Guess what though? The park sits on a disused railway line that if reopened, would not only benefit visitors to the park (from built-up areas of the North West and East Midlands) but also the wider network, by creating extra capacity between two major urban agglomerations and making things more reliable on existing lines (similar to HS2's role)

If reopened, huge swathes of urban Britain would be able to reach the park by rail (perhaps with a change of trains) and it might be very wise to create "Park & Ride" facilities at nearby nodes of the motorway network (Meaning visitors that have no choice but to drive need not navigate the extensive country roads to access the park, but perhaps park in a multi-storey and take a free, regular shuttle bus from there to the park) By investing in both these options, not only are we making things more sustainable environmentally, but actually our favourite Alton Towers would stand to gain by opening up room for park expansion onto areas currently covered in surface car parking, which is an incredibly poor utilisation of space.

It's all about getting out of the car brain mindset we've been so used to, and thinking about the bigger picture long-term.

Marshy.
 
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