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Existential Crisis? Towers and it's future

James said:
Improving entertainment is something I think is achievable without heavy investment. Why not consider returning the pirate show to Mutiny Bay for a season or two until something more permanent can be considered?
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Yep a new year-round show would go a long way to making the park feel better. Just having singers and dancers on the main stage on the lawn (like the old Fouuntain Square music powerhouse stage in the 90s) would add something extra to see, a bit like Oktoberfest offers in September but for the rest of the season.
 
All this topic is currently proving is you can evidence either side of the argument by being selective:

Hex and Skyride closed is either “it’s closed so they can save money” or “finally they are properly investing in a long term fix and not a rush job”.

Events are “they have cut Mardigras so clearly there are budget cuts” or “they have invested in 2 new locations for scarefest mazes”.

Opening hours are “they have cut summer operating times” or “they have reduced the number of 4pm closures and it’s been a naff summer”.

Investment is “they have paused project horizon” or “finally they are investing in flat rides”

Which all comes back to the point that we really haven’t got a clue what is going on, what pressures they have hit and what the long term plan is and we won’t likely know until next year at the earliest.
 
Dave said:
All this topic is currently proving is you can evidence either side of the argument by being selective:

Hex and Skyride closed is either “it’s closed so they can save money” or “finally they are properly investing in a long term fix and not a rush job”.

Events are “they have cut Mardigras so clearly there are budget cuts” or “they have invested in 2 new locations for scarefest mazes”.

Opening hours are “they have cut summer operating times” or “they have reduced the number of 4pm closures and it’s been a naff summer”.

Investment is “they have paused project horizon” or “finally they are investing in flat rides”

Which all comes back to the point that we really haven’t got a clue what is going on, what pressures they have hit and what the long term plan is and we won’t likely know until next year at the earliest.
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I'm inclined to agree with all of this, apart from your final hypothesis. Waiting for another year turns into waiting another year, then another after that.

I think we've found the upper limits, and 5 years is more than long enough to start seeing this. I think there was some good intentions to improve the overall quality, and probably even grow some of the parks, whilst sorting out the pricing strategy. Partially achieved in areas (from an extremely low benchmark), but decisions being made that are contradictory.

Some of the mistakes made along the way are completely with them and they should be owned. As much as the absolute rot that's hard to tackle can and should be blamed on the previous era, with Covid and the Cost of living crisis being reasonable factors to consider, I do think it's reasonable to assume that we're not going to see the sunlit uplands that many (granted, not me and you) were talking about a couple of years ago. And I don't think the excuses wash. Varney was fully supported as CEO and presided over the things that people generally tend to like, but is selectively blamed for things that people don't. First the late PLC era was blamed (rightly so). Then some moved to solely blaming Varney for all the bad stuff (not justified I feel) when it became apparent that the they've been delisted for a significant length of time now and the PLC excuse won't cut it anymore. Now even the weather is being blamed (was also rubbish last year)!

I suppose it depends on how we all personally perceive what turning a corner is? If just not looking as grim as it did 6 or 7 years ago is what that means to some, then I'm sure next season we may get that. My perception of turning a corner was that we would at least return to some sort of progress that was cut back in 2016 but with a new strategy (less headline gimmick attractions, refurbishing what's good, replacing what's not, sensible pricing, sensible and stable hours and events etc). That's not going to be the case in my view, just a less worse (albeit distinctly different in some ways) offering than we've that we're already used to once the dust settles.

But what I mean by the upper limit is that we know we're not going to see the investment that's needed to truly turn the page on the last 8 years, let alone the last 20. For every long-term Sky Ride refurbishment, there's a Spa closure. For every Hex Refurbishment, there's a pending monorail removal. For every project Ocean, there's an empty site in X Sector. For every Alton After Dark, there's weeks of 5pm summer closes. For every themed Gloomy Wood Ice Cream, there's a £14 sawdust burger. Seems like we've gone from an era of 1 step forward and 2 back, to 1 forward 1 back.
 
Matt.GC said:
I'm inclined to agree with all of this, apart from your final hypothesis. Waiting for another year turns into waiting another year, then another after that.

I think we've found the upper limits, and 5 years is more than long enough to start seeing this. I think there was some good intentions to improve the overall quality, and probably even grow some of the parks, whilst sorting out the pricing strategy. Partially achieved in areas (from an extremely low benchmark), but decisions being made that are contradictory.

Some of the mistakes made along the way are completely with them and they should be owned. As much as the absolute rot that's hard to tackle can and should be blamed on the previous era, with Covid and the Cost of living crisis being reasonable factors to consider, I do think it's reasonable to assume that we're not going to see the sunlit uplands that many (granted, not me and you) were talking about a couple of years ago. And I don't think the excuses wash. Varney was fully supported as CEO and presided over the things that people generally tend to like, but is selectively blamed for things that people don't. First the late PLC era was blamed (rightly so). Then some moved to solely blaming Varney for all the bad stuff (not justified I feel) when it became apparent that the they've been delisted for a significant length of time now and the PLC excuse won't cut it anymore. Now even the weather is being blamed (was also rubbish last year)!

I suppose it depends on how we all personally perceive what turning a corner is? If just not looking as grim as it did 6 or 7 years ago is what that means to some, then I'm sure next season we may get that. My perception of turning a corner was that we would at least return to some sort of progress that was cut back in 2016 but with a new strategy (less headline gimmick attractions, refurbishing what's good, replacing what's not, sensible pricing, sensible and stable hours and events etc). That's not going to be the case in my view, just a less worse (albeit distinctly different in some ways) offering than we've been used to once the dust settles.

But what I mean by the upper limit is that we know we're not going to see the investment that's needed to truly turn the page on the last 8 years, let alone the last 20. For every long-term Sky Ride refurbishment, there's a Spa closure. For every Hex Refurbishment, there's a pending monorail removal. For every project Ocean, there's an empty site in X Sector. For every Alton After Dark, there's weeks of 5pm summer closes. For every themed Gloomy Wood Ice Cream, there's a £14 sawdust burger. Seems like we've gone from an era of 1 step forward and 2 back, to 1 forward 1 back.
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We have been here before though, I have no issue with the principle that 5 years would be a good measure but in this scenario that is ignoring a pandemic that crippled the leisure industry.

It’s certain that at least 2 years of delay were added to any potential plans Kirkby had for Merlin.

If the pandemic hadn’t happened I would fully agree with you though.
 
Dave said:
All this topic is currently proving is you can evidence either side of the argument by being selective:

Hex and Skyride closed is either “it’s closed so they can save money” or “finally they are properly investing in a long term fix and not a rush job”.

Events are “they have cut Mardigras so clearly there are budget cuts” or “they have invested in 2 new locations for scarefest mazes”.

Opening hours are “they have cut summer operating times” or “they have reduced the number of 4pm closures and it’s been a naff summer”.

Investment is “they have paused project horizon” or “finally they are investing in flat rides”

Which all comes back to the point that we really haven’t got a clue what is going on, what pressures they have hit and what the long term plan is and we won’t likely know until next year at the earliest.
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This is a really interesting point, but if you look at the facts you outline, I think what it shows is that the new management has been a mixed bag - there have been both positives and negatives. There’s perhaps no discernible direction of travel, either improving or declining.
 
venny said:
This is a really interesting point, but if you look at the facts you outline, I think what it shows is that the new management has been a mixed bag - there have been both positives and negatives. There’s perhaps no discernible direction of travel, either improving or declining.
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Or they have had 1.5 years and have a lot to do 🤷‍♂️

Genuinely I don’t know but everyone seems to have forgotten a massive pandemic and a whole sale change in the management of the company in recent history.
 
It's starting to sound like Alton Towers seems undermanned or spread too thinly in comparison to other flagship Merlin themeparks like Thorpe and rapidly growing arch competitor, Paultons...
 
Jb85 said:
Yep and minimum wage doesn’t make it attractive.

Pay more, staff buses or mileage reimbursement and you may get more staff.
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That's a missing element that's contributed to Alton Towers suffering as an establishment by the turn of the 2020s. A large, happy workforce makes the visitors happy.

rob666 said:
Arch competitor Paultons???
Sorry, not a chance.
Similar markets, but miles apart on geography and scale.
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Not right now, but Merlin's parks may still feel the heat in 3 to 5 years time if Paultons Park keeps on expanding at the rate it has (with transport links better than Altons') and maintains if not improves its more consistent quality and upkeep (if Viking has a thrillride a step up above the Storm Chaser or Cyclonator).

In comparison Thorpe Park is arguably more of an amusement park akin to BPPB, while Alton Towers (next to Efteling, Phantasia, or Europa) has accumulated a reputation for being a crumbling hulk that's getting overgrown by forest foliage (even if Merlin are taking meaningful steps to turn it around and Nemesis Reborn was overall very well received).
 
TedShatner10 said:
That's a missing element that's contributed to Alton Towers suffering as an establishment by the turn of the 2020s. A large, happy workforce makes the visitors happy.



Not right now, but Merlin's parks may still feel the heat in 3 to 5 years time if Paultons Park keeps on expanding at the rate it has (with transport links better than Altons') and maintains if not improves its more consistent quality and upkeep (if Viking has a thrillride a step up above the Storm Chaser or Cyclonator).

In comparison Thorpe Park is arguably more of an amusement park akin to BPPB, while Alton Towers (next to Efteling, Phantasia, or Europa) has accumulated a reputation for being a crumbling hulk that's getting overgrown by forest foliage (even if Merlin are taking meaningful steps to turn it around and Nemesis Reborn was overall very well received).
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I’m a theme park fan and I haven’t been to Paultons as I live in Yorkshire and it’s a right treck.

Paultons will never directly compete with Towers, it’s just geographically not cut out for it. Towers despite the crap local roads is perfectly positioned in the UK to maximise its reach.

I’m glad Paultons exists (even if people on here seem to be a bit rose tinted about the place) as we need more UK parks to show the level of quality possible so that Merlin have to take note but It just can’t go toe to toe with AT. But to be honest the only park that could concern Towers (excluding Universal) is Drayton so I’m more keen on them snapping at Towers heels if I’m honest.
 
TedShatner10 said:
Maybe not Altons, but Paultons is pretty much going toe to toe with Legoland and Chessingtons....
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In terms of guest experience, particularly factors such as operations and queues, I think you could certainly make that argument, and I’d say I probably do prefer it to either of those personally. However, I still think they’re a tier below any of the Merlin parks in terms of calibre and scale of product.

The most recent estimates indicate that Paultons gets around 1 million guests per year, while Chessington manages around 1.5 million and Legoland manages around 2 million. So if we’re using annual attendance as a barometer of success, they remain a tier below any of the Merlin parks.

I’ve said this before, but I also think the rosy rhetoric of “Paultons good, Merlin bad” ignores a few key nuances.

Firstly, I think it ignores that there are many things Paultons haven’t yet attempted that the Merlin parks have shown some real prowess in. As an example, they haven’t done a dark ride yet, they haven’t done any proper custom coasters yet, they haven't done a large-scale custom water ride yet, and perhaps controversially, I’d argue that they haven’t done any properly “theatrical” theming yet in the way that Merlin arguably excels at at their best. The only area at Paultons that I think rivals Merlin’s best work is Tornado Springs (which really is excellent, very well finished off and very heavily detailed, to be fair to Paultons), and even then, I don’t think Tornado Springs has quite the level of impactful “theatre” that the likes of Wicker Man or Nemesis Reborn/new Forbidden Valley, for two examples from Merlin, have. I think it is very well finished off and arguably more "complete" in terms of overall polish and finish than either of the above examples, but I feel it lacks some of the theatrical "wow" factor of some of Merlin's best work. Another thing to note, albeit perhaps a pedantic one, is that while Hyperia has been criticised for having a cattlepen queue unlike some of Merlin's other coasters, every single ride at Paultons has a cattlepen queue. Even Storm Chaser has a massive cattlepen (a well themed cattlepen, admittedly, but a cattlepen nonetheless). Merlin, to their credit, have at least attempted some more interesting queue design in some cases; for example, Wicker Man has a very nice queue, as does Nemesis Reborn (although Merlin may not be able to claim all the credit for that queue design). Paultons are yet to do any of that more interesting queue design.

Secondly, I also think that it ignores some inherent aspects of Paultons Park's fundamental makeup that may help to foster the guest experience it offers. For example, the visitor figures are lower and the visitor base is quite heavily skewed towards Peppa Pig, which will naturally make the queues for the bigger rides lower. Paultons' rides are also less complex animals than many within the Merlin chain; all of their coasters bar Storm Chaser are relatively simple one-train (or only small car), one lift hill operations. This will go some way towards aiding the commonly touted high uptime and good maintenance of Paultons Park.

Another aspect I would raise if we're talking about success, and one that I haven't commonly heard raised before, is that I would argue that to an extent, Peppa Pig was almost too successful in that it's given the park a little bit of an image problem. What I mean by this is that Peppa Pig was so successful that it's made the park synonymous with Peppa Pig in the wider public conscious, which may alienate people outside of the Peppa Pig age demographic to some extent under the pretence that "We're too old for Peppa Pig". In Paultons' defence, they are trying their very hardest to dispel this notion with brilliant investments like Tornado Springs, and I think they do market these very, very well for a park of their calibre, but to some degree, I think a lot of people see Paultons, think of Peppa Pig, and think that the park only has rides for tiny kids, thus putting them off. I hope that this image is dispelled with time and increasing excellent investments, but I think that it may hamper their potential to some degree at present.

I'm not trying to do Paultons Park down at all. I think that for what they are, they offer an excellent, supremely pleasant guest experience, their investments are excellent and suit the park well, and they have a supremely exciting future. I'm also not saying that Merlin are perfect by any stretch; I think there are certainly areas in which they could take notes from Paultons on, for sure! I'm simply saying that I think Paultons are not besting Merlin in every single aspect as many make out, and I think that in terms of scale of product, the Merlin parks are still a tier above. Paultons are still largely untested in a number of avenues that Merlin has previously done very well, in my view.
 
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Matt N said:
Firstly, I think it ignores that there are many things Paultons haven’t yet attempted that the Merlin parks have shown some real prowess in. As an example, they haven’t done a dark ride yet, they haven’t done any proper custom coasters yet, they haven't done a large-scale custom water ride yet, and perhaps controversially, I’d argue that they haven’t done any properly “theatrical” theming yet in the way that Merlin arguably excels at at their best.
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Paultons Park has a potentially great dark ride literally in the middle of construction, though a Nemesis Reborn grade coaster for Paultons still feels unlikely or half a decade away.

Merlin's theming (judging from Legoland Windsor alone) when it hits it hits, but still feels scattershot, and showing its age next to the more compact and dynamic feeling Paultons (though smaller roller coasters do help with operations and staffing), with Alton Towers still amid crisis as a flagship themepark this year, and it has become a victim of Tussauds (and then its Merlin successor) over expanding worldwide in the past twenty years (with Alton Towers not fully reinvesting into itself completely like similar scale parks like Europa and Efteling are, because it's one theme park out of many in Merlin's roster, with Paultons likely not going to be hamstrung the same way in the next 5-10-15 years).
 
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TedShatner10 said:
Paultons Park has a potentially great dark ride literally in the middle of construction, though a Nemesis Reborn grade coaster for Paultons still feels unlikely or half a decade away.

Merlin's theming (judging from Legoland Windsor alone) when it hits it hits, but still feels scattershot, and showing its age next to the more compact and dynamic feeling Paultons (though smaller roller coasters do help with operations and staffing), with Alton Towers still amid crisis as a flagship themepark this year, and it has become a victim of Tussauds (and then its Merlin successor) over expanding worldwide in the past twenty years (with Alton Towers not fully reinvesting into itself completely like similar scale parks lile Europa and Efteling are, because it's one theme park out of many in Merlin's roster, with Paultons likely not going to be handicapped the same way in the next 5-10-15 yeaes).
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I’ll give you that; Ghostly Manor will prove an interesting exhibit of Paultons’ dark ride prowess. However, we don’t know what it will be like. We can’t declare that it’ll be brilliant or the best dark ride in the UK or whatever because it hasn’t been built yet.

Paultons are entirely untested in the avenue of dark rides at present; we don’t know what their prowess at building this attraction style is like. Ghostly Manor will be the first true exhibit of their dark ride skills, for better or worse.

Theming-wise, I think it comes down to taste. I think an area like Tornado Springs is possibly more polished and well-rounded than many of Merlin’s projects, but I think some of the most impressive Merlin theming work on rides like Wicker Man, The Curse at Alton Manor and Nemesis Reborn still outweighs anything Paultons have done in terms of raw theatre and spectacle.
 
Alton Towers got better roller coasters and established almost Disney scale dark rides three decades ago, but the themepark's vital connecting tissue (with the upkeep of rides, consistent opening hours, high cost for junkfood, unexpected hiccups like Wickerman fire, vast swathes of the park's gardens allegedly now in shambles, and many popular rides still in the midst being rebuilt or replaced, etc) the connecting tissues for Alton Towers still seem to be frayed this year.
 
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