Existential Crisis? Towers and it's future

[Danscott22]

It doesn’t fit in with the park and its surroundings. I’ve never seen it at full capacity or near that.

What do you mean? If you mean queue line wise there are plenty of occasions it’s hit capacity, including last year when social distancing wasn’t in force. If you mean train wise it almost always runs maximum capacity.

 

[RyanUK]

What do you mean? If you mean queue line wise there are plenty of occasions it’s hit capacity, including last year when social distancing wasn’t in force. If you mean train wise it almost always runs maximum capacity.

Queue line wise, as I said I’ve never seen it at full capacity and I’m not doubting it has, but I’ve also heard on the grapevine that it doesn’t reach it a lot.

I know everyone has their own opinions, but saying Wicker Man was an awful investment is flat out bizarre. It’s gone down really well with the public, it’s a great ride, it’s well themed. Interesting take.

I’m just not a fan. Well done for them on doing a successful ride, what I do know is that many are disappointed a great ride like The Flume had to go to make way for this.

 

[BarryZola]

This is the strangest take on Wickerman I've heard for a good while. It always gets amongst the biggest queues on park, is well themed and is enjoyed by the public and enthusiasts alike. The Flume was on its last legs.

 

[rob666]

Queue line wise, as I said I’ve never seen it at full capacity and I’m not doubting it has, but I’ve also heard on the grapevine that it doesn’t reach it a lot.

Queueline wise, I have seen it at full capacity and have walked away on a number of occasions, and on the grapevine I've heard it is one of the most popular rides on the park, tying with the smiler for the longest queues on the park.
If you don't like woodies, fine, but the woodie at the Towers has been very popular indeed.

 

[D4n]

Inferring that a ride is unpopular because its queue line isn't full when you're there is very bizarre indeed.

Many factors such as the days that you visit, the physical length of the queue line and the throughput of the ride are at play here.

Wicker Man and The Smiler are clearly the most popular two attractions at the park at this time.

 

[George W]

I've chatted to many of people in queue lines who aren't enthusiasts these last couple of years and wickerman is always the one that seems to be popular amongst near enough anyone, wickerman is just always a big draw.

I can't say I've ever noticed wickerman having a shorter queue, I mean if Rita is on one train or galatica is on one station sure the queues for those will be longer because of terrible through puts.
Smiler gets a slightly longer queue usually but it always gets a throughput of like 150-200 less per hour? And it's smiler.

Wickerman was a incredible investment, it might not be the most thrilling ride but it's very popular amongst GP and enthusiast's and definitely helped boost the attendance and bring good energy back to the park.

 

[RIPCorky]

It doesn’t fit in with the park and its surroundings. I’ve never seen it at full capacity or near that.

Smiler and Thirteen were bigger mistakes than Wickerman. At least Wickerman works and can be maintained. It's not a bad ride and more of a thrill than Thirteen ever was. It is however, absolutely ridiculous that two rollercoasters have been designed where you need a certain weight or weather condition for it to make it round the track.
But I do agree with you regarding the log flume being a big loss. The problem these days is that if you have a ride where someone can stand up and jump out you're asking for trouble. Back in the day it went without saying, today's world people will probably jump out to retrieve their mobile phone. Rapids are now on borrowed time, the amount of staff they need to run it is ridiculous. I remember doing that ride in the dark at Scarefest.

 

[RIPCorky]

Inferring that a ride is unpopular because its queue line isn't full when you're there is very bizarre indeed.

Many factors such as the days that you visit, the physical length of the queue line and the throughput of the ride are at play here.

Wicker Man and The Smiler are clearly the most popular two attractions at the park at this time.

Yet both are nearer the entrance than the other major coasters.... Funny that

 

[Matt N]

Yet both are nearer the entrance than the other major coasters.... Funny that

My counter to that would be that Spinball Whizzer is the nearest to the entrance of them all and does not appear excessively popular (or as popular as Smiler and Wicker Man, at least).

Smiler also isn’t that much nearer than Oblivion; they’re both in the same area.

Also, wouldn’t that only make a difference at the beginning and end of the day? From my personal experience, both rides maintain a fairly long queue throughout the day.

 

[RIPCorky]

My counter to that would be that Spinball Whizzer is the nearest to the entrance of them all and does not appear excessively popular (or as popular as Smiler and Wicker Man, at least).

Smiler also isn’t that much nearer than Oblivion; they’re both in the same area.

Also, wouldn’t that only make a difference at the beginning and end of the day? From my personal experience, both rides maintain a fairly long queue throughout the day.

Wickerman is central(ish) in the park so IMO that makes a difference to it's queue length. Both rides have times in the day where the queue drops and yes I believe it's usually in the middle of the day depending on park closure.

 

[Matt N]

Steering things back onto the topic of the thread (sorry, moderators… I never realised which thread I was posting in), I think that an interesting indicator of whether the park is on the up for the long term or not could be whether the large scale CAPEX continues past Project Horizon in 2025.

I say this because it could be argued that the upcoming 3 year period has parallels with two previous 3 year periods in the park’s history; 1992-1994 and 2008-2010. These periods both had sustained CAPEX investment following a change in hands or some form of corporate restructure in a similar vein to what we are seeing now. It’s coming a little later in this instance, but I’d wager that that is at least in part due to COVID-19, which the prior eras did not have to contend with.

The combined CAPEX between 2023 and 2025, adjusting for inflation, will be probably similar to what it was between 1992 and 1994, and perhaps a little higher than between 2008 and 2010.

The reason I reference these two previous periods, however, is because the 90s are widely perceived by those who were there as the “golden era” of Alton Towers, and the sustained CAPEX of 1992-1994 had a large role in kickstarting that. The sustained CAPEX of 2008-2010, on the other hand, is widely perceived to have been a false dawn, with things often described as having gone downhill from 2011 onwards. My point is that I think the trend past 2025 could be indicative of the long term direction of the park. If the years from 2026 onwards are more great years, then the park could be on the up for the long term. If not, then 2023-2025 could have been a false dawn.

 

[Zeock]

Steering things back onto the topic of the thread (sorry, moderators… I never realised which thread I was posting in), I think that an interesting indicator of whether the park is on the up for the long term or not could be whether the large scale CAPEX continues past Project Horizon in 2025.

I say this because it could be argued that the upcoming 3 year period has parallels with two previous 3 year periods in the park’s history; 1992-1994 and 2008-2010. These periods both had sustained CAPEX investment following a change in hands or some form of corporate restructure in a similar vein to what we are seeing now. It’s coming a little later in this instance, but I’d wager that that is at least in part due to COVID-19, which the prior eras did not have to contend with.

The combined CAPEX between 2023 and 2025, adjusting for inflation, will be probably similar to what it was between 1992 and 1994, and perhaps a little higher than between 2008 and 2010.

The reason I reference these two previous periods, however, is because the 90s are widely perceived by those who were there as the “golden era” of Alton Towers, and the sustained CAPEX of 1992-1994 had a large role in kickstarting that. The sustained CAPEX of 2008-2010, on the other hand, is widely perceived to have been a false dawn, with things often described as having gone downhill from 2011 onwards. My point is that I think the trend past 2025 could be indicative of the long term direction of the park. If the years from 2026 onwards are more great years, then the park could be on the up for the long term. If not, then 2023-2025 could have been a false dawn.

I agree. In my opinion, the large scale CAPEX will be dialled down a little after 2025, but still there will be more investment that was put in than before Merlin became private.

 

[Matt.GC]

Steering things back onto the topic of the thread (sorry, moderators… I never realised which thread I was posting in), I think that an interesting indicator of whether the park is on the up for the long term or not could be whether the large scale CAPEX continues past Project Horizon in 2025.

I say this because it could be argued that the upcoming 3 year period has parallels with two previous 3 year periods in the park’s history; 1992-1994 and 2008-2010. These periods both had sustained CAPEX investment following a change in hands or some form of corporate restructure in a similar vein to what we are seeing now. It’s coming a little later in this instance, but I’d wager that that is at least in part due to COVID-19, which the prior eras did not have to contend with.

The combined CAPEX between 2023 and 2025, adjusting for inflation, will be probably similar to what it was between 1992 and 1994, and perhaps a little higher than between 2008 and 2010.

The reason I reference these two previous periods, however, is because the 90s are widely perceived by those who were there as the “golden era” of Alton Towers, and the sustained CAPEX of 1992-1994 had a large role in kickstarting that. The sustained CAPEX of 2008-2010, on the other hand, is widely perceived to have been a false dawn, with things often described as having gone downhill from 2011 onwards. My point is that I think the trend past 2025 could be indicative of the long term direction of the park. If the years from 2026 onwards are more great years, then the park could be on the up for the long term. If not, then 2023-2025 could have been a false dawn.

Firstly Matt, thanks for steering this thread back on topic, away from the frankly bizarre assertion that Wickerman was some sort of disaster because it's queue line is not backed up to the entrance on certain given days.

Anyway, I largely agree with you here. But my concern is, after bursting out of the blocks in 2021, the park hasn't made much progress since. Events seem to be holding up so far. Opening hours have been partially reversed. Visual upkeep of the park is little more than Leek signs and purple paint and smacks of the "TLC" Merlin of old. There's no end in sight for tacky Fun Fair rides. Capax in things like Horizon are basically just the regurgitated investment that was previously cancelled before they went private wasn't it?

In the last 2 years, accommodation and food quality have got worse, the former more than anything else (I'm yet to taste the extremely high priced gastronomic delights that Aramak will deliver in 2023, but I've had a taste of their fayre at Chessington for a cheaper price and it was appalling). It just doesn't seem like they're setting up their stall well for me. So far, it seems they're happy with the old Merlin paint rollers covering rot. That 10-4's still get a thumbs up. The old Merlin food closures where a good choice. That Walliams World and the Rapids are acceptable experiences. Or that food and accommodation were far too cheap and offering far too high a quality product before so needed chopping back at the knees.

Beyond large scale capex investments, I just have this feeling that they think that much of the park, the experience it offers, the way it looks and the way it operates is acceptable as it is? Like all it needs is some events and couple of shiny new expensive attractions that they can market the hell out of, a lick of purple paint here and there and jobs a good 'un?

 

[RyanUK]

Inferring that a ride is unpopular because its queue line isn't full when you're there is very bizarre indeed.

That’s not what I said. I didn’t say about it’s popularity.

Firstly Matt, thanks for steering this thread back on topic, away from the frankly bizarre assertion that Wickerman was some sort of disaster because it's queue line is not backed up to the entrance on certain given days.

That’s not what I’m implying.

I’ve not said anything about the ride being a disaster or unpopular.

Let’s stop twisting words here. End of that. I make no apology for my opinion of a ride which I feel is not suited to the park.

Back to the topic.

 

[MaxPower]

I would be more optimistic if they hadn't of outsourced the catering.

That alone doesn't really suggest to me that they have any intention of improving the quality of anything or being any more hands on than pre-takeover Merlin were despite these new investments.

 

[rob666]

That’s not what I said. I didn’t say about it’s popularity.


That’s not what I’m implying.

I’ve not said anything about the ride being a disaster or unpopular.

Let’s stop twisting words here. End of that. I make no apology for my opinion of a ride which I feel is not suited to the park.

Back to the topic.

You have a very strong negative opinion of the ride, but by the sound of things, you have never ridden it?
So what you are saying is, you don't want to ride it, you don't think it fits well in the park...and you preferred the flume.
I imagine the vast majority of Towers visitors would disagree with you about the ride's suitability for the park, but every opinion is sacred.

 

[Ethan]

If anything I'd argue that Wicker man was where Merlin started to turn a corner. A ride with that level of theming, detail and immersion is something we've never seen at towers before. Far above the level of overall experience than the rest of the coasters. They focused on the package of the attraction rather than just the layout. In fact, you know it's impressive the level of theming when they managed to turn an average woodie into one of the best attractions in the UK

 

[Danscott22]

But it would still ride the same if it was plonked on a car park with the exact same layout. If it's an average woodie, then it's average regardless of the theming or not. The theming is great, but my opinion on how it rides doesn't change because of that.

Anyway, in turns of the whole turning a corner and stuff, the only other thing I have to add is that if we can see permanent flats introduced, the Rapids restored and the events keep coming back bigger and better (which they are), then we're getting there. In terms of food, I know people seem to hate it, but I never have a problem with Burger Kitchen, Just Chicken or Woodcutters which are the only three eateries I ever go to. I always enjoy the food that I have, so I'm not in the best place, apart from it's on the pricey side.

 

[jon81uk]

Visual upkeep of the park is little more than Leek signs and purple paint and smacks of the "TLC" Merlin of old.

I think some of the TLC work was better as Wayne seemed to genuinely care about the park and wanted to restore theming etc. It felt more about restoration of props than just slapping paint on.

 

[Zeock]

But it would still ride the same if it was plonked on a car park with the exact same layout. If it's an average woodie, then it's average regardless of the theming or not. The theming is great, but my opinion on how it rides doesn't change because of that.

Interesting. The layout for Wicker Man is honestly pretty terrible, but the theming elevates it from 6th to 3rd in the park for me. The upkeep on Wicker Man has been adequate, and in my opinion Wicker Man is where Merlin turned a corner.