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Formula One

Well what an ending to the race. Congrats to Max for winning and commiserations to a very unlucky Lewis.

I think the final lap was a bit of a farce, as many of you are aware I'm not Lewis' biggest fan but the last lap seemed out of regulations. However lets not forget that this wasn't Max's fault neither was it Lewis' fault. They drive and have to follow what the FIA and stewards say. I can understand Mercedes annoyance and get the protests.

However, I think Red Bull got their strategy right and allowed them to get better tyres for the ending win, I see some are saying it should have been a red flag and that way Lewis could get better tyres too, but thats not racing Red bull haven't done anything wrong in terms of seeing the yellow and getting the softs on. The argument is between Merc and the FIA

I think Masi is learning on the job and im not sure there are many who would want to be in his position. They need someone in place of Masi who, like Ted said is a bully, someone who is in charge and maybe not as susceptible to influence

I also think the FIA/team management conversations need to be redressed, as well as these after race protests, it ruins the atmosphere for me, Oh someones won, but we cant decide until after the race if they have won? I get theres a lot of money in it, but I am really against the team management trying to change the way of the race trying to tell the stewards what to do.

Sorry to Ruin 2022 but its gonna be a McLaren Constructors and Drivers double
 
I've had more time to reflect on what happened yesterday, and I am still gutted.

I really should congratulate Max though, on the whole he has driven brilliantly this season. Over the limit at times but his speed is there for all to see. I am sure he would rather have won the race in less controversial circumstances, but a win is a win.

It still feels wholly unfair that the Championship was decided by the race director using his discretion to use the safety car as he desired. Yes it allowed for a racing end, but there was no race to be had between a car on heavily used hard tyres and a car on fresh softs.

It was almost like an FA Cup final where one team was 5-0 up with a minute to go. The ref then awards a penalty to the opposition, but to make it more exciting for those watching, if the penatly goes in it counts for 6 goals. Then penatly is scored and the other side win 6-5.

Lewis drove such a brilliant race, his pace after Max pitted for fresh hards under the VSC was immense. He took it extremely well at the end, far more gracious than I would have been.

I understand why Mercedes are wanting to appeal the protest decision, but I do not want to see the title decided in court. Max won, we have to get on with it. Hopefully Mercedes come back with a superiour car next year.

One final point, it feels to me like politics has played more of a part than usual in this F1 season. I do not like how the teams can just be straight on the radio to the race director trying to influence his decision. Masi was under huge pressure, I'm not sure he handled it all that well but I cannot blame him for that as it was likely a lose-lose situation for him. I think both Mercedes and Red Bull both need to take a look at themeselves and how they operate.
 
@Rob agree totally with your last post

I feel that this race has been fabricated in the end to maximise tv viewings now and in the future

I really want next season to come now though so excited
 
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According to the Times, Mercedes are contemplating abandoning their appeal and putting 'The integrity of the sport' above their want for the 8th championship (I'd take it with a pinch of salt, it is the newspapers after all)

I think if true it is the right thing to do - If they did get it overturned, do you really want the asterisk beside the year in your titles? Also it would be a bit bitter-sweet in my opinion. If I were Merc id find it hard to celebrate winning though an appeal
 
That would not surprise me. They've probably slept on it and decided that an appeal is not the right way to go, and it would not surprise me if Lewis had told them he does not want to win a record 8th title in a court of appeal.
 
I'd expect an appeal would be rejected anyway on the basis that the race director can overrule the rulebook (which seems wrong, are we totally confident Masi, or any race director, is clean and not influenced?). However, the FIA will amend the rules ahead of next season and Masi may be forced to step down. Everyone will know that title should really have been Lewis's but we just have to get on with it.

It is a shame for the casual viewer because all they've been left with is confusion and controversy.
 
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Safety cars and red flags change races, it has happened throughout F1 and throughout this season.

I think we can agree we want to see all the cars racing each other, that is why they added the rule to remove lapped cars between the leaders at safety car restarts, to make it more exciting and interesting.

We want to see 20 cars racing as long as possible. We want mistakes to be punished, we want brave moves to be rewarded. Sometimes you will get lucky, and other times you will be unlucky. As a driver, all you can do is control what your doing, and hope everything balances itself out over the season. I would argue this season it has.

Racing is not like football, where it is only played between two teams. There is ten teams on the track, 20 drivers, and they are all battling each other. Imagine one Ref trying to manage a game of football with 10 teams playing, on the same pitch at the same time. Racing is also a lot more dangerous than football, and so the drivers safety has to be taken in to account. Most of the time when a player is injured in football, they ball goes out of play, the player then gets treated and if its serious, replaced with another player. Most of the time, neither team is impacted as a result of an injury, although sometimes it can lead to a goal. I think of Palace Vs Chelsea a few years ago, or the Liverpool game earlier this season.

If a car crashes in F1, there is a few things that can happen.

Double Waved Yellow Flags are used to cover the initial incident, but not to recover the car, F1 likes to avoid Marshalls on track under Double yellows.

VSC, for when there is a minor incident, not much debris on the track. The ideal solution, gaps remain the same for all the drivers, still the potential for some advantage if you want to pit as drivers going slowly on track, but minimal. You could argue they could close the Pit Lane under VSC as there should not be any debris on the track, and therefore no risk of a puncture

Safety Car, for when there is a bigger accident, they need to create a gap on track for Marshalls and machinery to come on and tidy up. There could be a lot of debris on the track. All the drivers lose any advantage they have, you can pit, and if the other cars have caught up the safety car, chance for an even bigger undercut and advantage at the restart. Lapped cars are let through to allow the drivers racing for position to battle it out. Stopping cars pitting under the Safety Car is dangerous, even if you keep the pit lane closed until all the cars have caught the safety car, if you get a puncture due to debris, that is not fair. Also not fair on the car at the front, as they can not double guess what the cars behind are going to do. Someone is going to lose out, and its not fair. A team at the back of the grid causes the safety car, who you are not in a race with costing you the win, but what can you do. Its part of racing.

Red Flag, for when the track is blocked, or no longer safe. Cars can be fixed and repaired, and tyres changed in the pits. Any advantage you had over the car behind is lost. When the race restarts, it can be a standing start or a rolling start depending on the race director. We have seen in the past where drivers have a big lead, races resume as a rolling start instead of a standing start. Again, as with the safety car, its not fair, its unlucky to lose your advantage this way, but what can be done. It is part of racing.

You could argue that the gaps should be restored after a red flag or safety car, but that is going to be difficult to achieve. Let cars past the safety car with a gap roughly similar to what was there before? How would that even work? Its not possible to get it back to how it was before. With the Red Flag, I quite like the idea, that if you change tyre compound you take a 3 place penalty, if you fix something, you take a 3 place penalty. So if you fix a front wing, and change tyres you lose 6 places. If you keep the same tyre compound, just newer, you don't get any penalty. Again, this favours the cars at the back of the grid more than those at the front, but at least their is some pain for doing it.

I think we would all agree that we like the idea of finishing a race under green flag conditions. How to do that though is tricky. Without refuelling, the Green White Chequered flag used in ovals is going to be difficult to manage. Running out of fuel because you were not expecting it to go GWC would be painful way to lose a race. Throwing a red flag with three laps to go could work, out lap, safety car lap, green lap. Would need to be some rules about no changes to the car in that situation. But that could work, it would be clearly written down, so everyone would know the rules, and it not just something that has been agreed between the teams and race director. All the drivers would have the chance to pit if they wanted to take that gamble. The problem with writing rules down is there is always loop holes or wording which is open to interpretation.

Back to yesterdays race, the first VSC was the correct call, no debris on track, no machinery need to remove the car. Toto calling the race director probably had little influence. Max pitted initially, and there was a gap for Lewis to pit afterwards, without losing track position, Mercedes had the chance to put Lewis on a fresh set of tyres but opted not to. Same with Bottas, kept him out.

The safety car was the right call, car out on track, small amount of Debris. Red Bull again pitted both drivers, and got them on fresh softs. Mercedes played it safe, assumed the track would not be cleared in time, and wanted track position. Both drivers stayed out. So far there is nothing Mercedes fans can complain about, losing his advantage, being on old tyres. All choices by Mercedes and the luck of racing.

The track being cleared and ready for racing is also testament to the great work of the stewards. Getting the track ready to go racing. Again, no one can complain about this, we want to go racing.

This is where things start to become open to interpretation and different fan bases will argue different cases. And this is where the rules need tidying up a little more or changing. Masi did what he thought was best, and got the drivers racing, using his powers as Race Director. If your a Mercedes and Lewis fan, this was the wrong thing to do, and robbed Lewis of victory. If your a Max fan, it was the right thing to do, and he has become the World Champion. As with any decision a referee makes, it does not matter what the correct thing to do was, all that matters is the call that they made, and we have to live with it.

Its a shame it ended this way. If this had been the second or third race of the season, and the season ended with the Brazil race, or Qatar race, we would not be having these discussions.

I really hope Lewis does not retire, I hope Lewis comes back next season, and brings the fight to Max. I hope Russell and Lewis have a few bumps. I hope Ferrari and McLaren are fighting at the front next season.

Would love to see Leclerc win the WDC next season, although Sainz has given him a really run for his money, finishing ahead of him shows how good Sainz is but it would still be good to see Ferrari back on top for a season. Lets have 7 or 8 seasons where different drivers and teams win the Championship.

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When Sainz was announced to be going to Ferrari, I think many of us probably thought "Really?". Instead, he's been a solid driver, getting four podiums, and beating Charles in the standings, which has helped Ferrari get back up to third. It's got them in a good position for the new regulations next year - provided they get the changes right, of course, but I have a hunch they will.
 
IanB said:
The safety car was the right call, car out on track, small amount of Debris. Red Bull again pitted both drivers, and got them on fresh softs. Mercedes played it safe, assumed the track would not be cleared in time, and wanted track position. Both drivers stayed out. So far there is nothing Mercedes fans can complain about, losing his advantage, being on old tyres. All choices by Mercedes and the luck of racing.
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The safety car was the right call, but I disagree that Mercedes played it safe, they literally had no other option than to retain track position with it being so close to the end of the race. Whatever Mercedes did Red Bull had to do the opposite.

There are two things which are wrong for me.

1. This is speaking more generally about the sport. Any car in that position in any race is at a disadvantage for leading the race at the moment someone decides to put it in the wall or have a collision. How many times have cars lost out due to this? Yes luck plays a part, but it's hard to swallow when you've done a near-perfect race and built an advantage only to see it literally wiped out and handed to someone else.
2. Mercedes strategised based on how safety car periods have played out for a long time now, this was then suddenly changed for the final couple of laps of the season. ALL cars have been able to unlap themselves and then the safety car comes in the following lap. Tell me, when was the last time just a few of the lapped cars were allowed to unlap themselves and racing got going the same lap? The inconsistency stinks.

I do hope Masi is not race director next season. The "it's called a motor race" comment left me speechless.
 
Danza91 said:
I do hope Masi is not race director next season. The "it's called a motor race" comment left me speechless.
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He sounded completely out of his depth in some of the radio tranmissions at the end of the race, you could hear the panic in his voice. Can't help but feel his position is now untenable.
 
Lewis’ words after the race made me think… will he retire? Will he have the appetite to go again. If he does, next season will be his toughest challenge yet, and arguably his best title if he hypothetically wins it.
 
Danza91 said:
I do hope Masi is not race director next season. The "it's called a motor race" comment left me speechless.
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I thought that comment was hilarious. It was tongue in cheek because he knew if the roles were reversed Toto would have been all for the race restarting if it meant that Hamilton got an unfair advantage.

The comms between Masi and the teams have been very entertaining this year but I agree with what Ian said that it has to stop, teams should not be able to directly influence what the race director is doing. Toto's comment about not bringing out the safety car earlier in the race was ridiculous, who is he to decide what is and isn't safe? As it was the VSC was fine but those decisions should be left to the race director not the team principals.

A fully deserved championship win for Verstappen unfortunately tainted by dodgy decisions, but that last lap was proper edge of your seat stuff, the most exciting last lap of the season since 2008. Much more exciting than watching them all finish behind the safety car.

Just like Hamilton has Timo Glock to thank for gifting him his first championship, Verstappen should be very thankful to Latifi for binning it so close to the end. A couple of laps earlier and would Hamilton have pitted as well, setting up an even more intense final lap? Who knows, that's motor racing, and that unpredictability is what makes it so exciting!
 
Mercedes did play it safe, they did not pit under the VSC as well, there was a gap for them to do it under VSC. They did not pit Bottas, they have a history of playing it safe and not taking risks. They had the faster car, but the played it safe and did not want to have to overtake Max.

How do you solve the safety car and red flag advantage issue though, what can you do to make it fair (In General)? It balances out over the season. Max was unlucky in Baku with the tyre issue, perfect race, comfortably in the lead and lost it, unlucky in Hungary where he was really sensible in to turn one, if he had been more aggressive he would of probably avoided the contact. Red Flags and Safety Cars are part of motor racing, and you just have to accept it and get on with it.

Masi got them racing, using his power as Race Director, which is what all the teams agreed to. Mercedes would of known this (they agreed to it), and it should of been on their minds when making the decisions they did. The track was safe to race, and they went racing. If Lewis had pitted and Max had stayed out, Lewis would be World Champion now.

As I said above, Max fans are going to feel he did the right thing. Lewis fans will disagree. Toto was shouting at Masi to not let them race and roll back the results, Christian is trying to get Masi to let them race and carry on. Masi did what he thought was right. I am sure the eight of team principals are also in the ear of Masi as well at points throughout the race.

Masi has a very difficult job, and is under a lot of pressure from everywhere. Calling for him to leave his position because you think he made the wrong decision is really unfair I think. This is only his third season doing the job, and the first time there has been serious competition at the front and some difficult decisions have had to be made. Charlie did a fantastic job for 20 years, but I am sure there was several occasions where he got things wrong. If he does leave, it means having someone else take over the role with no experience of doing it, so it could ended up just as much mess.
 
As a casual viewer, these restarts after the safety car situations in general seem to be the most stupid bit about the sport. You can basically lose any advantage that you've built up over great driving over half of the race or more. Why not after a safety car all drivers just go back onto the grid in the positions they were in when the safety car came out, then are each let out at intervals of approximately how far ahead they were of the car behind. It seems no worse than slowly swerving around the track for however many minutes (maybe the cars shouldn't be stationary for too long due to a technicality in how the cars run or something)...
 
BarryZola said:
As a casual viewer, these restarts after the safety car situations in general seem to be the most stupid bit about the sport. You can basically lose any advantage that you've built up over great driving over half of the race or more. Why not after a safety car all drivers just go back onto the grid in the positions they were in when the safety car came out, then are each let out at intervals of approximately how far ahead they were of the car behind. It seems no worse than slowly swerving around the track for however many minutes (maybe the cars shouldn't be stationary for too long due to a technicality in how the cars run or something)...
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I actually agree with this…. But the hard part would be enforcing it. How, for instance, do you release a car that was 0.8s behind another car and make sure the gap is the same, it’s impossible.
 
It could ultimately be dangerous. The cars need warm tyres to avoid any sort of accident or issue.

If for example Stroll is 0.8 laps behind the leader, then his tyres are going to be ice cold as you couldn't have any mechanics on the grid, so the leader then goes off and by the time he is finishing his lap, people in front have cold and unpredictable tyres weaving to desperately trying to get heat into them.

Whilst it's annoying you could have your lead wiped out, that is part of racing. Getting your strategy right and including these potential race changing decisions. Otherwise you might as well finish after qualifying, especially with the current cars.

FIA can never win imo, people want edge of your seat, nail biting racing. Then others want boring races where nothing happens (generally speaking)
 
What I find funny is that people moan about the fastest car losing their advantage behind the safety car, but then people also want to see reverse grids to make racing more exciting.

If this had been the second or third race of the season, there would not be as big a fuss about this, and it would just be one of those racing things.

Testing is taking place today, shame there is no live feed, but new tyres look good, but not sure about the covers on the Mercedes though. Have to wait until Feb to see the new cars on track, so I expect these covers will have changed by then.

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Red Bull is looking nice though :)

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I still have the opinion what was done was morally wrong. How someone can make a decision knowing that it would result in another person winning is beyond me.

Someone I spoke to said the race director can basically change the rules at his or her discretion with agreement from the teams.
The fairest way would have been a three lap shoot out on identical tyres, or a qualifying style fastest lap takes all scenario..

we will never know now what would have happened, but I think the fia need to protest themselves against this sort of farce moving forward.
 
Stupid decisions all around, really.

The whole stewarding system is balls and needs to be replaced with a comprehensive set of test cases which are applied. If no test case exists then the move is satisfactory until such a test case is added. No rotating panel of people with different biases.

One of those test cases should determine that in the event of virtual safety car taking more than 1 lap of racing, the safety car is called. Another should determine that if the safety car is called and the lap counter is at or reaches 3 laps to go, the race is automatically red flagged to allow the race to conclude under racing conditions when safe to do so. Everyone gets a shot at new tyres.

Despite the absolute farce of a final race for which the FIA are entirely to blame - Verstappen is a worthy winner. A championship is won or lost over a season, not a race, and Verstappen has driven the arse off that car week in week out.

I'm also pretty content with Merc not getting everything they want. Wolff's behaviour during the race (e.g. telling Masi not to call safety cars!!) and then this whole dragging a QC to try and get someone stripped of the title who didn't do anything wrong and won it in racing conditions (regardless of the rights and wrongs of how that came to be, which wasn't down to him)... shocking disregard for the sport and the fans in my view. Such a bad look.

Just hope that someone other than Merc knocks the new regs out of the park otherwise it could be back to dull Merc lapping the cars behind them situations again next year. My expectation is that Red Bull won't be there. Would be great to see the new Ferrari engine deliver, and Alpha Romeo or Haas come forward in the order again.
 
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