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Formula One

WillPS said:
I'm also pretty content with Merc not getting everything they want. Wolff's behaviour during the race (e.g. telling Masi not to call safety cars!!) and then this whole dragging a QC to try and get someone stripped of the title who didn't do anything wrong and won it in racing conditions (regardless of the rights and wrongs of how that came to be, which wasn't down to him)... shocking disregard for the sport and the fans in my view. Such a bad look.
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Horner and Red Bull are equally as guilty when it comes to this. On the radio asking Masi why lapped cars aren't being allowed to unlap themselves, then next thing you know the lapped cars between Lewis and Max are waved through. I am not saying that it happened because Red Bull asked for it, but still.

I agree that it should not be taken to court, and I have a feeling the Mercedes will just leave it now. There is no glory in winning a world championship in a court room.

F1 and the FIA need to learn from this though.
 
Rob said:
Horner and Red Bull are equally as guilty when it comes to this. On the radio asking Masi why lapped cars aren't being allowed to unlap themselves, then next thing you know the lapped cars between Lewis and Max are waved through. I am not saying that it happened because Red Bull asked for it, but still.
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I don't agree that it's the same thing at all.

One is trying to influence the director in a matter where the primary concern should be safety. The other was trying to get the procedure which has been followed since unlapping after safety cars began to be followed.

Both teams are certainly guilty of whining to the FIA at any opportunity which I guess isn't a huge surprise.
 
WillPS said:
The race is automatically red flagged to allow the race to conclude under racing conditions when safe to do so. Everyone gets a shot at new tyres.
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But how is this fair to the drivers who have been saving their tyres to attack at the end, not pushing earlier in the race to give them an advantage at the end. How ever you change the rules, someone is going to get lucky, and someone is going to be unlucky. You just have to trust it will balance itself over the season.
 
The fairest way to restart would be to be released from the grid individually with the time difference to the car in front matching that at the red flag point. With the technology in the cars it'd be absolutely possible to achieve with cockpit displays. Would have to have a maximum gap to prevent the front runners coming up against back markers still standing on the grid.
 
I'm trying to just accept what happened but seeing emerging videos of the drivers on the track at the time, such as Stroll and Ricciardo, basically saying "wtf" makes the whole thing even more baffling and a total mess.

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This was the order after the unlapping took place. Verstappen got his shot at the title while Sainz and Tsunoda were stuck behind lapped cars. Lando was correct, the decision was for TV.

As I said before, I don't anything will change now but the sport is looking a bit stupid right now. The FIA need to sort it out.

EDIT: There are reports that from next season team principals won't be able to contact the race director mid-race. I think this is a good move.
 
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pluk said:
The fairest way to restart would be to be released from the grid individually with the time difference to the car in front matching that at the red flag point. With the technology in the cars it'd be absolutely possible to achieve with cockpit displays. Would have to have a maximum gap to prevent the front runners coming up against back markers still standing on the grid.
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But that does not work because the cars released first will be at racing speed, and the others will be starting from zero, so the gap will of increased for the car in front, as it takes time to go from zero to racing speed. Would the maximum gap be the same for each track or different. What happens if a car stalls at the restart, there is no longer a gap to move it out the way.

The Race Director did what they thought was right, but in hindsight may have been wrong, there may be little tweaks that can be made to the safety car or red flag procedures, but on the whole, the current process they have is the fairest, easiest and safest way to do it.
 
IanB said:
But how is this fair to the drivers who have been saving their tyres to attack at the end, not pushing earlier in the race to give them an advantage at the end. How ever you change the rules, someone is going to get lucky, and someone is going to be unlucky. You just have to trust it will balance itself over the season.
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That unfairness already exists with safety cars, it is just applied in a more random way.
 
IanB said:
But that does not work because the cars released first will be at racing speed, and the others will be starting from zero, so the gap will of increased for the car in front, as it takes time to go from zero to racing speed.
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They would all start from zero to racing speed, including the car in front, so it would be no net gain or loss to anyone. There would have to be a standardised reduction in timing gap to account for the staggered starting grid.

All the variables of other drivers performance are no different to a start or restart at any other time.

With the amount of variables in F1 there's never going to be complete 'fairness' in wheel to wheel racing, but something like this would come a long way to address the complete unfairness, and scope for undue influence on a result by director and steward decisions, that currently exists. It's the integrity of the sport which concerns me more than any individual result.
 
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Yep, I feel like an idiot now :)

That could work, dash on their wheels telling them when to go. Not as fun as a full race start though. Maybe drivers in the top 10 keep the gap, and then 11-20 start at the same time to avoid the Leaders catching them up again and have a mini start with the excitement that brings. It could work, I just don't like the idea of a red flag for every incident, 15 minutes waiting around for each restart, so would need to extend the race time limit. Mistakes made earlier in the race getting a free pass, replace front wings. Drivers getting out and stretching their legs. It removes a strategy decision. You know there is an incident, and VSC wont cut it, so stay out, wait for Red Flag, and then change tyres. Safety cars delay things bout 5-6ish minutes

I do enjoy safety car restarts, its a skill a racing driver needs. (I heard a rumour and not sure how true it is or not, but the Mercedes Anti-Stall has a high threshold than the Red Bull Anti-Stall, so when Lewis was going slow to back up the pack, he was trying to force Red Bulls Anti Stall to kick in, so he could sprint away, not sure how true it is, but shows how much Lewis is thinking on his feet if that's the case) Red Flag restarts are also fun, the start is one of the most exciting parts of the race. Ignoring the outcome and rights or wrongs, the last lap was really exciting at Abi Dhabi.

I am a little confused now though, I hate things like DRS or Reverse grids, but is Safety Cars and Red Flags any different. Maybe I just don't like change, although the current qualifying format works brilliantly.

Do I want a change in the rules to force the race to always finish under a green flag with the lead car losing its advantage in the future? If its in the rules, and you know its going to happen, you can plan for it. If its all equal on tyres, being at the front of the safety car is an advantage, but it is right you lose that lead when there is another solution which could keep it. I think I need more time to think about this.

I think safety cars are a integral part of F1, as fans, when our driver is having a bad day, we wish for something to happen to bring one out, when our car is out in front, its a worry that something is going to happen and cost our driver the win. I think its part of the fabric of F1, its not a gimmick, and therefore we should not be getting ready of it for something which might be considered fair. Tidy up the rules on how the race will finish when a safety car is out, so we avoid a repeat of Abi Dhabi, and move on. F1 would not be the same without the safety car or safety car restarts.

Just going on Wiki, I did not realise the safety car was not really a thing until 93. I only remember watching F1 from 95, I did watch races before 95 but don't really remember much apart from being amazed by it all and clearly not going to remember a safety car before then. First memory of a safety car is when the race started under it for the first time.

Going green on the last lap, First and Second, both on fresh tyres, all the back markers out the way, so third place can also attack. Who ever wins, wins the World Championship, is that not just the perfect way to end a year of racing? I guess only if your driver wins it. It will probably never happen again.

Motor Racing is an odd sport, You have qualifying to put the cars in to speed order, and then let them race, in F1 anyway. If the cars are in speed order already, they are going to finish in that order.

Luckily the drivers are human, and that can mix things up. You can not build a Qual and Race setup, so have to make compromises. You have a element of strategy with the tyre choice and when to make your pit stops. And you have the weather which can mix it up. Luck does play a part, do you run over some debris and get a puncture. Do you get involved in someone else's accident. Get stuck behind someone. Does something go wrong in the Pit Stops. Do you have a mechanical issue on the car.

Should something designed to keep the drivers, marshals and everyone at the race circuit safe, be allowed to impact the race result or is just just another part of the racing luck. If in 93 they could of done what pluk suggests, would they of done that, throw a red flag, use the gaps from the previous complete lap, and then set them off with those gaps intact. It might make the races less exciting, but it does feel like the right thing to do. But if that is the route we go down, all the gimmicks need to go. No point keeping one outside factor, but not the others.

Two hours later, can I just be a hypocrite and say keep the Safety Cars and Red Flags but scrap the other Gimmicks, even though it does not make sense and I cant justify it.
 
Full FIA Statement here

With more time to reflect on it, I have to admit I also think it was wrong call, and in my opinion, the race director made a mistake (FIA have not said this though, although I am sure the lessons learned will identify changes to be made in the future, such as better communication before the event, changes to the rules), even though he was trying his best, and doing what he thought was right.

I still think Mercedes played it safe under the VSC, but it would not of made a difference. If it had been any other race, it would of finished under the safety car. I did not know about this agreement for a green flag finish to a race if possible before the race, so you can understand why Mercedes are upset that was the route the race director went down. This is the big problem, and this is what will get sorted out. Fans did not know about this, the commentators did not know about this and it was not explicitly called out in the rules how it would work. It is a very cruel way to lose a Championship after dominating the race, and dominating the later part of the season. Lewis handled it incredibly well, Toto not so much.

I hope there is nothing untoward with the decision, I don't think there is otherwise there would of been a punishment for Lewis earlier in the race. The Race Director should of had more support, it sounds like they have appointed someone above him already, and I would not be surprised if their is a Deputy Race Director appointed for next season as well (One can focus on safety, while the other can focus on getting back to racing). The rules will be improved following from above investigation, and avoid future misunderstandings. Hopefully they will look at the what counts as a race rules as well, after Spa.

I think Driver61 sums it up really well, there was four clear choices Masi had, and he picked mystery option 5. The only option where Max was going to win IMO. If I was the race directory, I would of probably finished it under the safety car.


Max got very lucky in this race (and was helped a lot by Perez), and Lewis got very unlucky (and was not helped by Bottas). What can you do with the Ref gets it wrong, I suspect the FIA will compensate Mercedes with something, but to change the Abi Dhabi result now, so Lewis wins would be just as messy and probably lead to a counter appeal from Red Bull.

But the championship is decided over 22 races, and over 22 races, Max has done enough to be World Champion and this mistake by the race director does not make it any less significant. Can you imagine if Monza had been the final race, and Max had won because of the contact with Lewis? Or what about Hungary, where Bottas took out Max, if that had led to Lewis winning the WDC. Or if Imola was the final race, and the Red Flag there allowed Lewis back in to the race and to win the World Championship. Can you imagine the emotions of Baku, if that had been the final race. Max comfortably in the lead for a tyre failure, Lewis thinks the title is his before a tiny mistake steals it away from him and its back to Max.
 
If they always want a green flag finish to the race they should introduce a rule where if there is an incident requiring the safety car in the last 5 laps then the race is red flagged. Then everyone comes back to the pits, fresh tires, and it's all fair for the restart and a manic couple of laps sprint to the checkered flag.

Otherwise a safety car so close to the end only benefits the race leader. Can you imagine if Verstappen had already put on fresh tyres and was catching Hamilton quickly, pulls within 1 second in the closing stages ready for an overtake and then suddenly he can't because someone elsewhere on the track crashes? Whenever they're is a safety car requirement someone is going to lose out, and someone is going to get lucky, that's why the strategy is so important.

Glad Mercedes have dropped the appeal, changing the result now would just be a bitter end to a great season, and would rob Verstappen of a well deserved title. The issue is with the FIA, not Verstappen and Red Bull.
 
FIA released a statement and someone on twitter is claiming this is all down to the FIA being racist and not giving Lewis the support he needs

Im sorry but this has nothing to do with race, and for people to suggest it is says more about them than the sport
 
Tibble said:
FIA released a statement and someone on twitter is claiming this is all down to the FIA being racist and not giving Lewis the support he needs

Im sorry but this has nothing to do with race, and for people to suggest it is says more about them than the sport
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F1 Twitter is just a cesspit of vitriol - moreso now than usual. I'll admit I don't like Hamilton as much as some, but I still recognise his ability behind the wheel, not to mention what he's doing to increase diversity in motorsport. To try and claim the FIA cheated him out of an eighth title is just stupid. If there were some evidence of this, then perhaps I'd be inclined to believe it, but there's absolutely none whatsoever. Just keyboard warriors frothing at the mouth.
 
Jonathan said:
To try and claim the FIA cheated him out of an eighth title is just stupid. If there were some evidence of this, then perhaps I'd be inclined to believe it, but there's absolutely none whatsoever. Just keyboard warriors frothing at the mouth.
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While I'm not one of these believing this, I think it's understandable that people do have their suspicions. F1 has its past with people who aren't exactly clean, e.g. Bernie and Max.
 
They've dropped it as it's an essential admission from the FIA that Max's title is tainted. And they clearly don't want to go through the procedures (although it would almost certainly be possible) to transfer that tainted title to Lewis, who already has considerably more titles and a reputation gained and won in fair circumstances. Disappointing, but understandable.
 
Tainted title :tearsofjoy: I suppose you'd be saying the same if the cars were not allowed to unlap as was originally declared (and Merc were obviously fine with)?

What utter rubbish. Max Verstappen did absolutely nothing wrong in the race. He did not have a hand in the weird decisions the FIA made, including the bizarre one to not punish Hamilton for leaving the track earlier in the race.

His championship was determined by his performance over those 20-odd races, not the last lap of the final one.
 
This is going to rumble on until the next race in March. I am not sure this is good or bad. Some of the stuff on social media has been shocking, from both sides.

I over defended what happened initially to justify Max being the deserved winner, but now have found a happy medium. Max did nothing wrong, and deserves to be World Champion. The race director made a mistake. Lewis is very unlucky not to be World Champion. There were several keys moments throughout the season which could of resulted in a different outcome. The FIA and F1 are going to fix the issues with the rules before next season to avoid this happening again.

I hope Lewis has a good Christmas, and I hope he comes back next season. Lewis retiring would be bad for F1.
 
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