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Future of the Congo River Rapids

Wasn't the other one about the bends being too tight to fit the route into the shed, so water ingress on the bends is far more than it should be?
 
Actually, I do wonder had the accident at Drayton never happened which meant that the rapids were never toned down as they are now, would Merlin had still let CRR still get into the state they are regardless the accident happened or not as judging by the state the sad state the Flume was in that CRR seems doomed no matter what way you look at it.
 
Matt N said:
Things like roller coasters with no restraints and block systems died out decades ago; modern roller coasters have restraints, block systems, upstop wheels, and all kinds of other failsafe mechanisms to make them completely foolproof.

Rapids rides, on the other hand, have no restraints and no way of controlling the boat’s flow past the station other than through the use of very blunt instruments like those roller-type things that you see every now and then on Congo. They are arguably not failsafe in the same way as something like a roller coaster, or even other types of modern water ride, because you have little way of controlling a boat that is freely flowing down a river and the guests seated within. Some responsibility for staying safe is handed to the guest, which is always risky, and there are no ways to control the flow of boats past the station. In the same sense as block sections, at least.
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That is not really a fair comparision though, let's be fair.

Rollercoasters have a block system, to prevent vehicles that are not far off the weight and motorway speed of a HGV from colliding into one another.

They have restraints to stop people from quite literally, being ejected from their seats when they experience forces many times that of gravity.

They have upstop wheels to ensure the vehicle stays on the track, as 15 tonnes flys around with more energy than a HGV going down the motorway.

Why would a rapids ride need any of those? If a rapids boat touches another at 5mph, is it going to cause an horrendous crash? No.

Rollercoasters have those systems in place because they need them, they need them to ensure the safety of the passengers.

A rapids ride would not be safer with any of those. Because they are irrelevant to the type of ride. You could argue the case with restraints, but that is a different discussion.

You cannot stop a rollercoaster once it has gone over the crest of the lift hill. Like a rapids boat. But why would you need a block system? Two 750kg air filled tyres colliding at 5mph, is not the same as two 15 tonne trains colliding at 50mph, so much so, that a block system would do nothing to improve safety. Would you agree?

I do agree though, that they are not failsafe in the same way that a rollercoaster is, they do not need to be. But comparing a coaster to a rapids ride is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

If there was a way that you could guarantee a boat would not capsize, under any circumstances. You could then safely add harnesses to the ride, ensuring no guests move or stand up. All problems solved. This is the key to building safer rapids rides in my oppinion.

More modern rapids do have block systems. Only to ensure lifts and drops are clear, which naturally present risks. But rides like CRR's do not have these systems in place, not because they are outdated, but because they would serve no purpose.

There is no hiding the fact though, rapids are inherriently more dangerous than other types of rides. There is only so much you can do when sending a rubber dingy rapid down a fast flowing channel of water.

You see, all of the waves, provided by pipes on the trough floor, present opportunities for guests to stand up and move seats. These have not been removed from any rapids ride. They are all still there. So clearly, the H&S guidance (of which the specific bit is not mentioned in that document) has a fair bit of lee way.

A guest is more likely to want to stand up and move if a boat heads into a wave, in the direction they are sitting, than when the boat heads into a waterfall.

Therefor, I would argue that there is no reason the waterfalls should be off, when they still have pipes making waves, on the trough floor. I would even go as far as saying the pipes on the tough floor, are higher risk than the waterfalls. A guest is more likely to stand up when facing an oncoming wave. (Of which none have been removed on any rapids in the UK, wave machines do not count) Than they would a waterfall.

Think about it.....when the boat heads into a wave, 3 quarters of the boat provide a place a guest could move to, in order to not get hit by the wave. The waterfalls on the other hand, are on two sides at all times, meaning there is only half the boat that is not facing a waterfall at any one time, thus there is less space on the boat to move to, to not get hit by the waterfall. Making it less likely they would move. Plus. An oncoming wave, you may jump to the opposite side of the boat, aka the furthest possible distance you can move in a boat. In the waterfalls you will not do that, as it will just put you in the face of the waterfall on the other side.

Doesn't matter if the boat is closer to one side of the trough or the other. The waterfalls splash from both sides, no matter where the boat is.
 
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QTXAdsy said:
Actually, I do wonder had the accident at Drayton never happened which meant that the rapids were never toned down as they are now, would Merlin had still let CRR still get into the state they are regardless the accident happened or not as judging by the state the sad state the Flume was in that CRR seems doomed no matter what way you look at it.
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Your question can be answered by taking a look at the Smiler this season.
 
DistortAMG said:
That is not really a fair comparision though, let's be fair.

Rollercoasters have a block system, to prevent vehicles that are not far off the weight and motorway speed of a HGV from colliding into one another.

They have restraints to stop people from quite literally, being ejected from their seats when they experience forces many times that of gravity.

They have upstop wheels to ensure the vehicle stays on the track, as 15 tonnes flys around with more energy than a HGV going down the motorway.

Why would a rapids ride need any of those? If a rapids boat touches another at 5mph, is it going to cause an horrendous crash? No.

Rollercoasters have those systems in place because they need them, they need them to ensure the safety of the passengers.

A rapids ride would not be safer with any of those. Because they are irrelevant to the type of ride. You could argue the case with restraints, but that is a different discussion.

You cannot stop a rollercoaster once it has gone over the crest of the lift hill. Like a rapids boat. But why would you need a block system? Two 750kg air filled tyres colliding at 5mph, is not the same as two 15 tonne trains colliding at 50mph, so much so, that a block system would do nothing to improve safety. Would you agree?

I do agree though, that they are not failsafe in the same way that a rollercoaster is, they do not need to be. But comparing a coaster to a rapids ride is like trying to compare apples and oranges.

If there was a way that you could guarantee a boat would not capsize, under any circumstances. You could then safely add harnesses to the ride, ensuring no guests move or stand up. All problems solved. This is the key to building safer rapids rides in my oppinion.

More modern rapids do have block systems. Only to ensure lifts and drops are clear, which naturally present risks. But rides like CRR's do not have these systems in place, not because they are outdated, but because they would serve no purpose.

There is no hiding the fact though, rapids are inherriently more dangerous than other types of rides. There is only so much you can do when sending a rubber dingy rapid down a fast flowing channel of water.

You see, all of the waves, provided by pipes on the trough floor, present opportunities for guests to stand up and move seats. These have not been removed from any rapids ride. They are all still there. So clearly, the H&S guidance (of which the specific bit is not mentioned in that document) has a fair bit of lee way.

A guest is more likely to want to stand up and move if a boat heads into a wave, in the direction they are sitting, than when the boat heads into a waterfall.

Therefor, I would argue that there is no reason the waterfalls should be off, when they still have pipes making waves, on the trough floor. I would even go as far as saying the pipes on the tough floor, are higher risk than the waterfalls. A guest is more likely to stand up when facing an oncoming wave. (Of which none have been removed on any rapids in the UK, wave machines do not count) Than they would a waterfall.

Think about it.....when the boat heads into a wave, 3 quarters of the boat provide a place a guest could move to, in order to not get hit by the wave. The waterfalls on the other hand, are on two sides at all times, meaning there is only half the boat that is not facing a waterfall at any one time, thus there is less space on the boat to move to, to not get hit by the waterfall. Making it less likely they would move. Plus. An oncoming wave, you may jump to the opposite side of the boat, aka the furthest possible distance you can move in a boat. In the waterfalls you will not do that, as it will just put you in the face of the waterfall on the other side.

Doesn't matter if the boat is closer to one side of the trough or the other. The waterfalls splash from both sides, no matter where the boat is.
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You can argue that all you like, the HSE don’t care.

Now I suspect the waterfalls are off because it’s been unused for so long they have found issues with them as they clearly had an intention to turn them back on again hence the announcement.
 
What are people actually expecting from a family rapids ride?

It was better before but it wasn’t exactly mind blowing in terms of experience. The waterfall would add something, but nothing much (they have one switched on at Thorpe). I agree with what was said earlier, the log flume was the better ride by far and should have stayed.

I ride it each time I go, for it to become a world class experience it would need too much work now. The station is a rusty mess, the trough is a dirty mould colour, there is practically zero theming around the ride. The planting/banks are just weeds.

Can I see them pulling it out? No, I don’t think so.
 
Blackhole_Sun said:
What are people actually expecting from a family rapids ride?

It was better before but it wasn’t exactly mind blowing in terms of experience. The waterfall would add something, but nothing much (they have one switched on at Thorpe). I agree with what was said earlier, the log flume was the better ride by far and should have stayed.

I ride it each time I go, for it to become a world class experience it would need too much work now. The station is a rusty mess, the trough is a dirty mould colour, there is practically zero theming around the ride. The planting/banks are just weeds.

Can I see them pulling it out? No, I don’t think so.
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The log flume was pretty naff and English Heritage and the council wanted it gone as it went into the protected part of the gardens.
 
Dave said:
You can argue that all you like, the HSE don’t care.

Now I suspect the waterfalls are off because it’s been unused for so long they have found issues with them as they clearly had an intention to turn them back on again hence the announcement.
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You are absolutely right. But, if HSE tried to enforce explicitly turning waterfalls off, while clearly allowing parks to operate the rides with pipes strapped to the trough, I suspect they would fall flat on their face in an appeal.

But, if you read that HSE document which is updated from the interim one made immediatly after the accident at Drayton Manor. It does not say anywhere that park operators should miminise features and effects that encourage guests to stand. Something that it did state in the interim guidance.

What it does say though, is it acknowledges and makes readers / operators aware, that features, with the examples being water pistols and photo points, will increase the likelihood of guests standing up. This updated version does not recommend features such as those not be on attractions. It just states they increase the likelihood of guests standing. So mitigating factors need to be in place.

Previously from 2017 to 2021, anything that could encourage guests to stand up was recommended to be minimised and eliminated on the attractions. Fast forward to now, the document acknowledges that these rides will have features that make guests stand up. The emphasis now though, is not on eliminating such features, but controlling and mitigating the risk if guests do stand up, via means of cameras, audio and spotters.

Much better in my oppinion, as their old recommendations were a bit pointless, because there were still plenty of things that could and did make guests stand up.

So it's good to see HSE acknowledge that guests will stand up, and bar shutting the rides down, nothing will change that.

Their position has gone from stopping everything that might make guests stand up. To making operators aware that features of the rides will make guests stand up and ensuring mitigating factors are in place when said guests inevitably stand up.

The HSE kneejerk reaction was updated and loosened somewhat, after they worked with Drayton Manor to re open their rapids. With new safety features, that they could see working in practice, in the real world. Rather than just on paper. Which was the case for the interim HSE papers.

I suspect this is the exact reason why Alton Towers clearly have or had plans this year to bring the waterfalls back online. This is also the reason why I completely disagree with the view that all rapids rides in the UK will be gone in 5 years.

Some will undoubtedly go for sure, they are much more expensive to operate now. But there is nothing explicitly stopping river rapids in the UK, now operating again with all the features that they used to operate with. Whereas there was before, for the last 4 or 5 years.
 
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I don't think the flume was a better ride. The Rapids, with all its wave machines cranked up, waterfalls and pistols shooting you in the face, tunnel in darkness and old station canopy wasn't too bad. It's always had a decent length to it, is quite well landscaped (as is Katanga Canyon in general), you used to get wet on it and going through the tunnel as RMT went through was great.

It's always lacked theming, in it's original White Water form (used to have a bear at the photo point though) and as post 1992 Congo. It could always have done with more water features, maybe like elephant trunks coming out of the foliage to spray you or something. The concrete tunnel wasn't always lit up, it wasn't always so tame and views of it weren't always hidden behind overly high fences.

On one hand, a decent ride still sits there. It has a decent route, a nice queue line and the landscaping of KC is built around it. It's one of the few remaining rides at Alton that has the potential to be fun for "all the family". But on the other hand it's costly to run, would need new high back boats to prevent people falling out, and a significant investment in features and theming to make it good. I can only see it limping on until they bin it off in a few years time which I think is very sad.
 
When running at full pelt, with all water features running, I always found Congo River Rapids a lot more fun than The Flume, personally. I always liked how it was wet enough, but not too wet, the waterfalls were always a great moment, it felt as though the ride had some pretty strong waves, and overall, it was a true classic that we never failed to ride on a visit to Alton Towers!

By comparison, I was remarkably apathetic towards The Flume. I don’t think my family and I rode it once in its last season in spite of spending 4 days at the park in 2015. I think my last ride on The Flume was in 2014, possibly? I always found that it spent a very long time wandering aimlessly around the forest, and compared to a ride like Logger’s Leap at Thorpe Park, I never personally found it a terribly exciting log flume. I wasn’t particularly sad when it closed, and even though its removal arguably lowered the variety of the ride lineup, I do feel that Wicker Man adds a lot more to Alton Towers’ ride lineup than The Flume ever did for me.

As for modern day Congo, I do think that the ride has lost its spark ever since the Splash Canyon incident and the neutering of the ride that happened as a result. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still a fun filler attraction, but it’s not what it once was for me.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it is on the radar for some sort of major change or removal within the next 5-10 years. I do think that the makings of a brilliant rapids ride are still there, but at the same time, I do wonder if exploiting those makings is worth the hassle it would inevitably cause within the modern day H&S culture in UK theme parks. The fact that other UK rapids rides are also heavily neutered would suggest that it is a UK thing rather than an Alton Towers thing; even Drayton Manor’s brand new rapids ride, while a bit more vibrant in terms of theming than Congo, was absolutely bone dry when I did it last year, so I do think that the HSE guidance could have forced a change in how rapids rides operate more generally. I’ll be interested to see how Paultons Park operates a rapids, if those rumours are true; I wouldn’t be surprised if we see that one have a very different focus, being centred on things that are less likely to make people stand up such as drops and whirlpools.

One thing I would say about Congo is that it’s very expensive to operate as mentioned, but it is also quite an inefficient use of space. It takes up a lot of land, and in a park where potential development areas are growing increasingly limited, will Alton Towers view Congo River Rapids as being worthy of the massive area it occupies compared to a potential new investment further down the line?
 
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I also echo the fact that I much preferred CRR over The Flume when it was at it's best, and found it to be the better ride.
 
Matt N said:
When running at full pelt, with all water features running, I always found Congo River Rapids a lot more fun than The Flume, personally. I always liked how it was wet enough, but not too wet, the waterfalls were always a great moment, it felt as though the ride had some pretty strong waves, and overall, it was a true classic that we never failed to ride on a visit to Alton Towers!

By comparison, I was remarkably apathetic towards The Flume. I don’t think my family and I rode it once in its last season in spite of spending 4 days at the park in 2015. I think my last ride on The Flume was in 2014, possibly? I always found that it spent a very long time wandering aimlessly around the forest, and compared to a ride like Logger’s Leap at Thorpe Park, I never personally found it a terribly exciting log flume. I wasn’t particularly sad when it closed, and even though its removal arguably lowered the variety of the ride lineup, I do feel that Wicker Man adds a lot more to Alton Towers’ ride lineup than The Flume ever did for me.

As for modern day Congo, I do think that the ride has lost its spark ever since the Splash Canyon incident and the neutering of the ride that happened as a result. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still a fun filler attraction, but it’s not what it once was for me.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it is on the radar for some sort of major change or removal within the next 5-10 years. I do think that the makings of a brilliant rapids ride are still there, but at the same time, I do wonder if exploiting those makings is worth the hassle it would inevitably cause within the modern day H&S culture in UK theme parks. The fact that other UK rapids rides are also heavily neutered would suggest that it is a UK thing rather than an Alton Towers thing; even Drayton Manor’s brand new rapids ride, while a bit more vibrant in terms of theming than Congo, was absolutely bone dry when I did it last year, so I do think that the HSE guidance could have forced a change in how rapids rides operate more generally. I’ll be interested to see how Paultons Park operates a rapids, if those rumours are true; I wouldn’t be surprised if we see that one have a very different focus, being centred on things that are less likely to make people stand up such as drops and whirlpools.

One thing I would say about Congo is that it’s very expensive to operate as mentioned, but it is also quite an inefficient use of space. It takes up a lot of land, and in a park where potential development areas are growing increasingly limited, will Alton Towers view Congo River Rapids as being worthy of the massive area it occupies compared to a potential new investment further down the line?
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Out of curiosity, what other rapids are heavily neutered? Drayton's operate with more guisers and water fountains now, than they ever did before the accident. Rhumba Rapids also operates like it always has? I'm unsure of Legolands as I've never rode it.

It just seems to me like Alton Towers are being extra cautious. Other parks seemingly have brought most stuff back, unsure on legoland.
 
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DistortAMG said:
Out of curiosity, what other rapids are heavily neutered? Drayton's operate with more guisers and water fountains now, than they ever did before the accident. Rhumba Rapids also operates like it always has? I'm unsure of Legolands as I've never rode it.

It just seems to me like Alton Towers are being extra cautious. Other parks seemingly have brought most stuff back, unsure on legoland.
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Drayton effectively removed the wave machine section though. This was by far the best part of the ride in terms of turbulence and splashes etc (and the risk of movement around the boat to avoid it). A few fountains don’t make up for the fact that it’s still a heavily neutered ride from what it used to be. In its prime, Drayton’s rapids rivalled Alton’s (all bar the waterfall section - which was the grande finale of AT’s ride).
 
Johnny_5 said:
Drayton effectively removed the wave machine section though. This was by far the best part of the ride in terms of turbulence and splashes etc (and the risk of movement around the boat to avoid it). A few fountains don’t make up for the fact that it’s still a heavily neutered ride from what it used to be. In its prime, Drayton’s rapids rivalled Alton’s (all bar the waterfall section - which was the grande finale of AT’s ride).
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I guess so. The amount of people that I've seen jump from boat to boat in that wave section over the years is astronomical. If.l you remember the wave pool never had the guideways it has now or what Congo River Rapids have, meaning boats could get stuck for a while, sometimes for 5 or 10 minutes. Providing ample opportunity for people to jump from boat to boat. Something they did quite alot.

They could bring it back now if they really wanted to, there is nowhere to get stuck. I suspect we might see them back at some point. I may or may not know the engineering firm in Tamworth that I believe was doing some work on the wave machine. That doesn't mean it is coming back. But they are keeping the machinery serviceable at least.

I hope it does, it will pave the way for Alton to turn theirs back on. (I can wish). Which really do add to Congo River Rapids. I loved the 3 wave pool sections on CRR.

It
 
DistortAMG said:
Out of curiosity, what other rapids are heavily neutered? Drayton's operate with more guisers and water fountains now, than they ever did before the accident. Rhumba Rapids also operates like it always has? I'm unsure of Legolands as I've never rode it.

It just seems to me like Alton Towers are being extra cautious. Other parks seemingly have brought most stuff back, unsure on legoland.
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Drayton’s did not have any water effects or waves whatsoever when I rode it last year (as I said, I stepped off it bone dry), but I concede that things could have just not been working the day I rode it.

Granted, Thorpe Park’s rapids still has a waterfall and the one wave machine, but Rumba has always felt a bit more neutered than something like Congo for me anyway (the waterfall, for instance, is not nearly as forceful as Alton’s was, and it’s always felt like there aren’t nearly as many strong waves) and I believe there used to be quite a few water spray effects on Rumba that have not operated since the incident. Besides, I gather that Rumba Rapids needs the waterfall and the wave machine for safe operation.

I haven’t ridden Legoland’s, but I gather that it also used to have effects that were turned off or removed post-Splash Canyon, and I’ve heard it described in very similar terms to modern day Congo.
 
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