Gender Identity

[Trooper Looper]

Very odd Thread...

I know its 3 years old, but I'm Just gonna say my opinion on this as quick as I can. Let's go!

I won't lie, I may be just a typical teen, but I was raised in a very old fashioned manner by both my parents when growing up, I can't have a huge say on people's perspective of the whole 'non-bonary' and Gender Identities situation.

Of course, people with Gender Dysphoria exists and it's certainly a terrible Mental problem that pretty much can't be cured. I really feel for people who struggle with it day by day. Heck, when I was around 10ish, I had quite a bit of Gender Dysphoria, having a more like in more Girl stuff than men's stuff, but I never told my family, and over the years of holding it in and never really looking deep into the whole concept of Gender identities, It started to fade away when I was nearly 15. I knew I'll always be a guy, and there's nothing wrong with that. Later I started to do more stuff any typical teen boy would do, like video games, watching action films, listening to classic rock, and hanging out with the boys more often.

Back then I never knew anything about LGBT stuff outside of Men liking men and women liking women, and I never found that weird at all, but when I found out about there being more than 2 genders in recent years, I was bewildered.

I just find it so odd why people want to be neither Male or female. So I looked into the Internet. No matter how many sources I looked at, no matter how many stories I read about what made them chose this lifestyle, it still made no sense to me. Maybe im just, like I said earlier, old fashioned, but adding a 3rd Gender just so you can be comfortable sounds like an unhealthy option to chose from. Like I said, people with Gender Dysphoria probably mentally suffer quite a bit, but indulging on it and making a new Gender up out of the blue after there's only been 2 since the dawn of time, Just so you can be comfortable. It just feels iffy to me. It's like you're lying to yourself every morning that you did last night's washing, and you let the pile of used dishes build up over time, it's not a good long term solution and will only cause more problems for you. There's better ways to deal with it, lying to yourself isn't one of them. There will only ever be 2 genders, no matter how many times you try to add a 3rd. I'm probably gonna get banned from that statement

From my experience with Gender Dysphoria, you just need to learn self acceptance and don't try to be someone you arent, I know that's probably incredibly controversial here, and i don't meant to be intentionally rude to anyone, it's just my perspective of the situation here I'm trying to say in the most neutral manner I can.

 

[Matt N]

I think this is a topic where one needs to tread quite carefully when discussing, as I’m aware that it’s a very contentious one with very strong emotions involved. With that in mind, I apologise in advance if I say anything that’s misconstrued or anything that offends anyone here.

Personally, I am fully accepting of the gender identity movement and letting people be who they want to be. I’ll admit that I don’t entirely understand every element of the gender identity movement, but I accept it. I am fully supportive of giving people the liberty to do whatever makes them happy without persecution; if someone wants to identify as something, who am I to stop them? If it makes them happy, it makes me happy for them!

One thing I would say is that I think going forward, sex and gender need to be made less interchangeable terms, and that they should be differentiated from one another to a greater extent.

Sex is a biological fact; 99.9% of people are born either male or female (I say this because some people are born intersex, where it is inconclusive whether they are biologically male or female, but this is very rare; less than 0.1% of babies born are intersex).

Gender, on the other hand, is more open-ended, and is more greatly dependent on one’s identity and personality. I will not pretend that I personally have experience of gender dysphoria or questioning my own gender, but I can definitely understand why someone might want to be a different gender to their biological sex. If you’re born a certain sex, but your personality greatly differs from the gender norms for your biological sex in just about every way, then I can certainly understand why you might want to identify as the opposite gender or even undergo a sex change. If you don’t identify with any typical gender norms, then I can see why you might want to identify as non-binary. And I think it’s important to accept people’s personal choices on this topic, as it’s a very personal choice and a great element of your whole identity.

I’d just like to make it very clear that I fully support the gender identity movement, even if I might not fully understand it. I am very supportive of giving people their own choice on this issue and letting people be who they want to be. If you are experiencing gender dysphoria or are identifying as a different gender to your biological sex, I want you to know that I fully support you, and I will always be supportive of your personal choice regardless of how much it might differ from “the norm”.

 

[tayspru]

Courtney put it into words very plainly and in such an easy to understand way that I don’t think it’s worth me trying to retread what they say. What I will say is that it’s not someone “feeling” or “choosing” a certain way, its language to describe who they just “are”

 

[Jb85]

I think this is a topic where one needs to tread quite carefully when discussing, as I’m aware that it’s a very contentious one with very strong emotions involved. With that in mind, I apologise in advance if I say anything that’s misconstrued or anything that offends anyone here.

Personally, I am fully accepting of the gender identity movement and letting people be who they want to be. I’ll admit that I don’t entirely understand every element of the gender identity movement, but I accept it. I am fully supportive of giving people the liberty to do whatever makes them happy without persecution; if someone wants to identify as something, who am I to stop them? If it makes them happy, it makes me happy for them!

One thing I would say is that I think going forward, sex and gender need to be made less interchangeable terms, and that they should be differentiated from one another to a greater extent.

Sex is a biological fact; 99.9% of people are born either male or female (I say this because some people are born intersex, where it is inconclusive whether they are biologically male or female, but this is very rare; less than 0.1% of babies born are intersex).

Gender, on the other hand, is more open-ended, and is more greatly dependent on one’s identity and personality. I will not pretend that I personally have experience of gender dysphoria or questioning my own gender, but I can definitely understand why someone might want to be a different gender to their biological sex. If you’re born a certain sex, but your personality greatly differs from the gender norms for your biological sex in just about every way, then I can certainly understand why you might want to identify as the opposite gender or even undergo a sex change. If you don’t identify with any typical gender norms, then I can see why you might want to identify as non-binary. And I think it’s important to accept people’s personal choices on this topic, as it’s a very personal choice and a great element of your whole identity.

I’d just like to make it very clear that I fully support the gender identity movement, even if I might not fully understand it. I am very supportive of giving people their own choice on this issue and letting people be who they want to be. If you are experiencing gender dysphoria or are identifying as a different gender to your biological sex, I want you to know that I fully support you, and I will always be supportive of your personal choice regardless of how much it might differ from “the norm”.

You've hit the nail on the head here. I very well thought out constructive post

 

[Matt N]

Something very interesting has recently happened in Scotland that I felt might be worthy of bumping this thread.

Yesterday, the Gender Recognition Reform Bill was passed in the Scottish Parliament by a majority of 86 to 39. If it gains Royal Assent, this bill will make it easier for people to change gender by making it easier for people to apply for a GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate).

For comparison, the changes are as follows:

• The minimum age for application for a GRC is to be reduced from 18 to 16.
• A medical report confirming a diagnosis of gender dysphoria will no longer be required, and secondary medical reports relating to the diagnosis will also no longer be required.
• Applicants will only be required to have “lived in their acquired gender” (I’m not entirely sure what this means, or how exactly it can be proven…) for 3 months rather than the current 2 years.
• There will no longer be an oath of intention to live in your acquired gender until death.
• GRC applications will be handled by the Registrar General for Scotland rather than a UK government panel as it is now.

However, the bill has been extremely controversial. Many even within the Scottish Parliament have opposed it. Also, the UK government have said that they may challenge the legislation and prevent it from gaining Royal Assent.

Advocates of the bill argue that it would make the lives of transgender people easier and more dignified, and that it gives people who are experiencing gender dysphoria an easier route to living as their desired sex.

On the flip side, critics of the bill express concerns about women’s sex-based rights being eroded. They argue that the easing of GRC requirements could be easily exploited by the likes of sexual predators, which could compromise women’s safety.

What do we think of this? I’ll admit that I don’t think I quite know enough about it to make an informed judgement myself, but the bill is certainly dividing opinion quite strongly.

If you are interested, here is an article from the BBC discussing both sides of the argument: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64033750

 

[tayspru]

There’s no “two sides” to someone living authentically. It’s clear that “critics” would rather trans people remain closeted and out of sight. As for the erosion of women’s rights, that’s nonsense, equal rights for one group doesn’t mean less rights for others.

The way that trans people are likened to sexual predators is completely sickening and has no place anywhere, let alone on the BBC. It’s a straw man argument at best at deeply transphobic at worst.

 

[Matt N]

The way that trans people are likened to sexual predators is completely sickening and has no place anywhere, let alone on the BBC. It’s a straw man argument at best at deeply transphobic at worst.

From having read the article, that wasn’t how I perceived it. I perceived them to instead be saying that critics of the bill felt that predatory men could potentially exploit the legislation and illegitimately declare themselves women in order to gain access to women’s spaces and exploit women without pushback.

That is not the same thing as saying that “all trans people are sexual predators”, as far as I can tell. That would of course be an untrue claim.

I did not personally perceive the article as “likening trans people to sexual predators” at all. I must confess that I’m not very good at “reading between the lines”, though, so I apologise if I’m wrong there.

For clarity, I fully believe that if the type of thing that critics of the bill are referring to does happen (and that is a big if… I certainly wouldn’t like to confirm), it is bound to be a vast, vast minority of GRC applications. It is likely that there are far, far more folks who will legitimately benefit and live happier lives from this legislation, and I fully support transgender people living happier, more authentic lives.

As I said in a post further up this page; I don’t entirely understand the gender identity movement, but I do accept it and support those who are feeling gender dysphoria or feeling as though they want to live as a different gender from their biological sex. I apologise if anything I have said infers otherwise, as that was not my intent.

 

[Matt.GC]

A majority of 86 to 39 is a smashing. Bearing in mind how weak the UK government is at the moment on almost every front and how much the crazy nationalists in Scotland are feverishly trying to exploit said UK government weakness to further their divisive politics, there's no doubt in my mind this will gain royal ascent. No doubt at all.

 

[tayspru]

With no disrespect - if it’s something you don’t fully understand - then take more time to get to know it before making diatribe like posts or statements that give far too much attention to hateful rhetoric.

The people who are “concerned” about sexual predators are making up a scenario that simply does not happen to justify their views towards trans people.

 

[rob666]

I see no forceful or bitter attack here, more meaningful debate.
Isn't such a debate, on a positive and supportive website a great place to be educated?
Not "If you don't agree with my wisdom, go away and learn elsewhere."
That is a bit exclusive isn't it?
I support gay and trans people, in my community, the coaster community, and within my own family.
Have done since the seventies, when things weren't as easy.
Some abusive predators will use this as a route to exploit others sexually.
A sad, simple and unfortunate fact.
It isn't an excuse to prevent the legislation, but it does need managing in a proper manner, hand in hand with the law.

 

[BarryZola]

This change would make the system far too easy to exploit for anyone who wanted to do so for whatever less than honest reasons. I disagree with these proposed changes.

 

[Benzin]

Some abusive predators will use this as a route to exploit others sexually.
A sad, simple and unfortunate fact.
It isn't an excuse to prevent the legislation, but it does need managing in a proper manner, hand in hand with the law.

I don't think the legislation in place will ever prevent those who wish to abuse others.

However it does seem that trans people get a real unfair lumping in with predators. I often wonder how regularly cis men pretend to be female presenting to attack them in bathrooms (as that is the regular argument aimed at these issues). Who is going to wait 3 months to be classified as the opposite gender legally in order to use it as a method of abuse/predatory behaviour?

What really doesn't help anyone is the way in which TERFs become abusive towards people who are incredibly vulnerable. Those with gender dsymorphia need so much help and support and it's exceptionally sad that some are so stuck against it for very vague reasons which were no doubt used as reasons against gay rights before I was born.

It's same stuff just different targeted minority group.

 

[jon81uk]

If someone really wants to enter a toilet labelled for the opposite gender they will just go ahead and do it. No one is going to get a bit of paper to legally declare themselves the opposite gender just to enter those sort of spaces.
Maybe, just maybe someone would do it to enter a women’s refuge to take spiteful action against someone, but it seems a lot of effort when brute force entry would be easier.
Mrs Doubtfire didn’t need to change their legal gender to try and see his kids, they just put on a dress. That’s a fictional film and still more plausible than the arguments against gender reform.

 

[Matt N]

I’ll admit that the more I think about it, the more I do think that the number of cisgender men who would declare themselves women just to gain easy access to women’s spaces is likely to be very limited compared to the number of folk who are genuinely feeling gender dysphoria and would like an easier route to living as a different gender.

So on balance, I think this legislation is a good thing because it benefits far more legitimate transgender people than it does people who want to exploit it for the wrong reasons.

Thinking about it in more depth, the idea of men self-declaring as women to gain access to women’s spaces does seem like something that would happen extremely infrequently in reality. I’m sure that only a minority of men would want to gain access to women’s spaces in the first place, and even then, I’m sure that those who would be willing to go to the effort of changing gender to do this are in even more of a minority.

That’s not to say that it wouldn’t happen at all by any means, because sexual violence against women at the hands of men is of course a significant problem, and I would be hesitant to underestimate the lengths that some folk would go to.

However, relative to the number of transgender people who would benefit from this legislation, folk legally changing gender with an ulterior motive would likely be in a vast, vast minority.

Besides, I’m sure that there are ways the process could be made watertight against those who wish to use the new legislation for malicious means without discriminating against transgender people.

One question I do have, however, is; how exactly can “living as the opposite gender” for 3 months be proven? I don’t ask that to be argumentative, I’m merely curious because it seems like a difficult thing to prove empirically.

 

[BarryZola]

One question I do have, however, is; how exactly can “living as the opposite gender” for 3 months be proven? I don’t ask that to be argumentative, I’m merely curious because it seems like a difficult thing to prove empirically.

It can't be proven really. Just as important, it can't be disproven either. So, in reality, any man could just pretty much instantly declare that they're now living as a woman and have the rights that women have. Let's pretend that you're going to get sent to prison for a couple of years and your local prison is notoriously rough. That's fine, you can just declare that you're living as a woman and go to the women's prison instead. I wouldn't think that's fair on the women in that prison. Some would understandably be fearful of a locked up man being around them. And if they dared complain? Well, that would be discrimination against your rights as someone living as a woman wouldn't it? This is how ridiculous things 'could' get.

 

[Benzin]

It can't be proven really. Just as important, it can't be disproven either. So, in reality, any man could just pretty much instantly declare that they're now living as a woman and have the rights that women have.

Quick Google search led me to:

Apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate

Apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate to legally change your gender.

www.gov.uk

Examples of what you can send in include good quality photocopies or photographs of:

your driving licence
your passport
identity cards, like workplace IDs, student IDs, railcards, health insurance cards, library cards or supermarket loyalty cards
letters from solicitors, accountants, doctors, dentists or employers
bank statements
payslips, P60s and P45s
benefit letters
tax letters and documents, including council tax
credit reports
confirmation letters that you’re on the electoral register
student loan statements
utility bills, such as internet bills
rental agreements
academic certificates and documents

So your example can't happen. It has NEVER been legally possible to just declare yourself as a different gender. Indeed the amount of hoops people are forced to jump through is often far more damaging and dangerous, whilst simultaneously being told that their problems are a danger to society as a whole because of some fabricated situations that may or may not happen.

As mentioned, if a cis het male wanted to go and jump some women in a toilet, changes to gender identity law (I.e. making it easier/harder for those who genuinely wish to change) will not change those people or prevent them from doing so.

 

[BarryZola]

I was talking about potentially AFTER the proposed changes. From what I've heard, the current situation seems entirely reasonable.

 

[tayspru]

At the end of the day, without an incredibly intrusive right wing cabinet, the Scottish government have engaged with experts across different fields and come to the conclusion (with a huge majority) that this is the right thing to do with minimal risk to the rights of others.

We could pontificate all day, but the voices of literal experts and actual transgender people are for more valuable that any of our “what if’s” and speculation on situations that don’t and have never happened

 

[Matt N]

I was talking about potentially AFTER the proposed changes. From what I've heard, the current situation seems entirely reasonable.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t the mechanism for proving that you’ve “lived as the opposite gender” remaining the same as @Benzin describes (which I admit I did not previously know about), with only the amount of time you need to have “lived” for decreasing?

With that in mind, surely the system will be just as watertight against abuse as it is now? Thus meaning an ideal situation where transgender people have an easier mechanism to gain the right to live as they see fit, but the system remains protected from abuse?

 

[BarryZola]

I believe that as well as the length of time getting shorter, the need for reports from doctors etc is also getting dropped. Honest apologies if I've got that wrong as I was skim-reading the details from somewhere yesterday.