Hotels General Discussion

[Alsty]

It's not fair on either customers or the new employees to chuck them into a busy, high-stress environment without giving them even the most basic level of training to cope with it.

I imagine many new starters wouldn't stay for long if they find themselves completely out of their depth and not getting any support. That would only contribute to high staff turnover which only makes things worse.

If you were stuck behind a learner driver, you wouldn't tailgate them flashing your lights and beeping your horn because they didn't overtake the bus you're stuck behind then blame the instructor would you?

A somewhat spurious analogy.

If I was staying in a hotel paying £300 per night I would expect them to know what drinks they have available, how to make them and how to serve them. They also should know basics like clearing up tables and the bar area as they work.

I've stayed at many budget hotels this year and they've all been able to meet this criteria.

 

[Ian]

As I said in my previous post, I completely understand the challenges they are facing with recruitment and can empathise with that, but like Craig says, they need to be tempering expectations better. It’s the same issue that runs throughout the resort, charging top dollar for a product of declining standard.

I know I wasn’t the only one who saw some challenges this weekend, as amongst other things we witnessed someone asking if a glass was a pint, and also a double spirits measure being served as a small wine measure. To me that raises concerns that someone was literally bought on their first shift that morning, stuck behind a bar and told to crack on.

This was the middle of the afternoon as well, when the bar and restaurant is dead, so that is surely the time when people should be able to supervise and train properly. I could perhaps understand it more in an evening when the bars are overwhelmed, but even then it doesn’t excuse them placing new staff under that level of pressure (and I would put money on it being them who unfairly get the blame for any complaints or discrepancies raised).

To use your learner driver analogy, this situation to me feels more like showing them to the motorway sliproad, the instructor getting out and saying “I’ll see you at junction 9.”

 

[Matt.GC]

Ok then, say it's a newbie's second day behind the bar. What "training" are they expected to be given before going live? What, realistically is the solution? You're a manager, you're already tight even with the new starters on the schedule, your working week is probably dominated by constantly interviewing and recruiting people as well as your day job, your existing people are either new themselves or very stretched and fed up of people being rude to them for £9 an hour. What is the solution?

Of course there are wider issues of the crap Towers are delivering for high prices, what kind of an employer they are in the first place, the way they operate and so forth. I agree with all of those. But I'm intrigued to know what everyone's ideas of practical solutions are?

 

[Plastic Person]

As @Ian highlights, it's not that I don't have sympathy for the position that the frontline staff and even the management are in given recent personnel and supply chain issues. But the Alton Towers Resort experience is currently so expensive, were I a guest there, I shouldn't have to deal with it, nor think about what the practical solutions might be. I'd just want a pint in a pint glass.

 

[Alsty]

@Matt.GC the question should be, how come other hospitality venues (even those at a much lower price point) can get it right but Alton Towers can't? What are they doing differently?

 

[Rob]

I have sympathy for the member of staff in question, but I would suggest that if working behind a bar and you do not know what a Sauvignon Blanc is or which glass is a pint glass, then you probably either; a) should not be working behind a bar, or b) should at least be given a basic overview of what is what.

Has it now got to a point where Alton Towers will just employ anyone who applies for such a job? Surely someone who does not know a very standard type of wine would not ordinarily get a job in a bar. They would be found out at interview.

I do feel for the staff member, they went for a job and got it. And I do understand that the hospitality sector need all the staff they can get. But you also need standards to be adequate at the very least.

 

[Burner]

Has it now got to a point where Alton Towers will just employ anyone who applies for such a job? .

As someone who works at the resort, the recruitment situation is so bad that both F&B resort side, and on park that they've had to resort to agency staff to fill the gaps.

 

[Rob]

As someone who works at the resort, the recruitment situation is so bad that both F&B resort side, and on park that they've had to resort to agency staff to fill the gaps.

I am not surprised, and I do also accept that it can be a choice between staff and opening an outlet, and no staff and an outlet having to be closed.

Hopefully things can be better in 2022.

 

[WillPS]

Not defending them on many other fronts, but in terms of staff "training" I think we need to spare a thought for how hard it's been all season to recruit and train new people. This has nothing to do with management not giving damn - what are we expecting them to do? If you were stuck behind a learner driver, you wouldn't tailgate them flashing your lights and beeping your horn because they didn't overtake the bus you're stuck behind then blame the instructor would you?

Bearing in mind these people are taken on when levels are already tight. It'll be a basic induction with the essential legal stuff then straight on the job under loose supervision by a person who has a heavy workload themselves. It's the best way to learn and makes trainees productive and helpful straight away. If they were sat out the back learning stuff for weeks on end that they'll probably forget by the time they'd put in to practice anyway, then we'd all be complaining about how few staff there are.

Give them a break, they're under-resourced throughout the resort as it is and we were all trainee's new to the job once. They have a high proportion of newbie's, I've seen it myself when I've stayed and I completely emphasise with the trainees, their co workers and their leaders.

I agree it's not the individual new staff member's fault at all, but I don't agree this is an entirely unavoidable problem.

Pay your staff correctly and you will have no problem filling staff positions, treat them well and staff turnover reduces too.

Amazon are paying £1/hr more, plus a sign on bonus of £1000-5000, for unskilled staff at the moment. And they lay on free buses to get people to them from central locations to their edge-of-nowhere warehouses.

If that means you need to put up your prices, then put up your prices.

 

[D4n]

Yet I applied for a role for over the summer holidays - just something to do between teaching gigs - and they only got back to me, to offer me an interview for the 2022 season no less, two weeks ago. I had made it absolutely clear that I was not available during term time.

Safe to say the recruitment process is a bit of a shambles too.

 

[WillPS]

Yet I applied for a role for over the summer holidays - just something to do between teaching gigs - and they only got back to me, to offer me an interview for the 2022 season no less, two weeks ago. I had made it absolutely clear that I was not available during term time.

Safe to say the recruitment process is a bit of a shambles too.

Perhaps that term time only comment got you stamped as a 'laterbase' candidate?

 

[venny]

Some training that one would expect to be given to staff at a high-priced bar (assuming your recruitment process was unable to attract staff without such a basic knowledge): -

- what drinks are available
- how each of those drinks should be served

This doesn’t require a week’s residential training course and a customer paying over £6 for a pint of Midway is well within their rights to expect this basic level of knowledge/training.

 

[Danny]

I've never worked behind a bar in my life, so I won't claim to be well-versed in the training aspects. However, surely the absolute basic fundamentals of being trained to work in one should involve knowing drink sizes, how to pour and measure?

Product knowledge also needs to be instilled. That way, they won't be serving bottles of champagne over the £60 mark for less than £20 including a pass discount, as witnessed this weekend.

 

[Matt.GC]

There are some serious training issues in the bars, that’s for sure. I asked for a glass of Sauvignon Blanc and the member of staff had to ask someone else what it was, then proceeded to ask if it was red or white, before also having to ask what glass it should go in.

I appreciate that they are very short staffed this season and everyone has to start somewhere, but it really does make you wonder how much attention the management and team leaders give their new staff if they’re put straight on the job, front of house like that. Especially given how busy they get in the evening.

I make no apologies for quoting the above post. But before everyone got excited and started going on tangents as if I'm some idiot who wouldn't notice when a job was being done on me, the above comments are what I was referring to.

Context - not about Merlin culture. Not about your local Premier Inn having staff and Towers not having them. Not about the price you pay for the service you receive. Clearly stated above is wondering what attention "management" and "team leaders" give their new staff.

The answer is quite simple. Hard working managers and team leaders that Karen's, Boomers and the Educated Class like to metaphorically spit on - get paid crap money to work crap hours on low low pay. They don't have the staff, payroll budgets or respect - and thus the authority - from their employers to be able to do anything about the situation. Everyone leaves, the economy changes and they can't recruit people for shit.

Back track, over simplify the situation and patronise me by saying your local pub has enough staff and that Merlin shouldn't charge as much for their hotel stays as much as you want. But at the end of the day, I haven't seen a single practical solution as to what anyone expects managers on the ground at Towers to do about the situation.

I'd tell you all exactly what "attention" managers and team leaders are giving to their new starters if you like but it would probably fall on deaf ears. If anyone is under any illusions as to what it's like out there for scum like us who have to manage such establiments given the current circumstances then I can tell you it isn't a bed of roses. You take what you can get and just hope you can get through another day.

 

[pluk]

I make no apologies for quoting the above post. But before everyone got excited and started going on tangents as if I'm some idiot who wouldn't notice when a job was being done on me, the above comments are what I was referring to.

Context - not about Merlin culture. Not about your local Premier Inn having staff and Towers not having them. Not about the price you pay for the service you receive. Clearly stated above is wondering what attention "management" and "team leaders" give their new staff.

The answer is quite simple. Hard working managers and team leaders that Karen's, Boomers and the Educated Class like to metaphorically spit on - get paid crap money to work crap hours on low low pay. They don't have the staff, payroll budgets or respect - and thus the authority - from their employers to be able to do anything about the situation. Everyone leaves, the economy changes and they can't recruit people for ****.

Back track, over simplify the situation and patronise me by saying your local pub has enough staff and that Merlin shouldn't charge as much for their hotel stays as much as you want. But at the end of the day, I haven't seen a single practical solution as to what anyone expects managers on the ground at Towers to do about the situation.

I'd tell you all exactly what "attention" managers and team leaders are giving to their new starters if you like but it would probably fall on deaf ears. If anyone is under any illusions as to what it's like out there for scum like us who have to manage such establiments given the current circumstances then I can tell you it isn't a bed of roses. You take what you can get and just hope you can get through another day.

Merlin should not be putting any of their staff, or customers, in this position. From the lowest paid bottle boy to the resorts manager, they are being failed by the Merlin machine. As a guest I don’t care who's fault it is, it shouldn't be my problem.

What could 'they' have practically done? They could have increased staff renumeration, sign on bonus, improved terms, staff transport, staff accommodation.
They could have recruited heavily as soon as lockdown started lifting. They could have used those quieter times to train staff thoroughly. They could now have a highly skilled workforce to coach new recruits.

We mostly know how the company operate and hands are tied at all levels. We also know that Merlin absolutely has the resources to fix this in practically an instant, and that even without the resources of the wider company the hotels are so wildly profitable that they absolutely could have done these things and remained viable and profitable.

Don't get hung up on whether the server is an actual idiot, the bar manager hasn't trained them, the resort manager doesn't seem to care. That's not the point people are making.

To comment on what any of these layers of staff or management have or haven't done is not a slight on them, it's an observation of how little they can achieve for each other and for the customer with what they are given to work with.

 

[Plastic Person]

To be fair @Matt.GC I appreciated your perspective largely as I know that you do work on the frontline in a customer service job. I don't think anyone was "doing a job on you" or diminishing your work do day-to-day, nor dehumanising the staff at Towers. They were just reflecting that the service on offer at the hotel resort right now doesn't reflect the extortionate cost. Sure, nobody has a clear practical solution, but without in-depth structural knowledge of how management train and recruit, it's difficult to offer anything more than discussion of the situation as it's been observed.

 

[s_g_k]

I make no apologies for quoting the above post. But before everyone got excited and started going on tangents as if I'm some idiot who wouldn't notice when a job was being done on me, the above comments are what I was referring to.

Context - not about Merlin culture. Not about your local Premier Inn having staff and Towers not having them. Not about the price you pay for the service you receive. Clearly stated above is wondering what attention "management" and "team leaders" give their new staff.

The answer is quite simple. Hard working managers and team leaders that Karen's, Boomers and the Educated Class like to metaphorically spit on - get paid crap money to work crap hours on low low pay. They don't have the staff, payroll budgets or respect - and thus the authority - from their employers to be able to do anything about the situation. Everyone leaves, the economy changes and they can't recruit people for ****.

Back track, over simplify the situation and patronise me by saying your local pub has enough staff and that Merlin shouldn't charge as much for their hotel stays as much as you want. But at the end of the day, I haven't seen a single practical solution as to what anyone expects managers on the ground at Towers to do about the situation.

I'd tell you all exactly what "attention" managers and team leaders are giving to their new starters if you like but it would probably fall on deaf ears. If anyone is under any illusions as to what it's like out there for scum like us who have to manage such establiments given the current circumstances then I can tell you it isn't a bed of roses. You take what you can get and just hope you can get through another day.

Great post @Matt.GC . Having worked in retail management myself, people think we have the power to make changes because we’re “managers” and on a great salary. The truth is we’re working 60 hour weeks for £24k a year, trying our best to make sure our department is staffed correctly whilst somehow trying to deliver a decent service. Whenever senior management or directors visited my site, we’d clean it up and put on our big smiles so they saw what they wanted to see. It was all so fake but we did it to please them because we knew the rules and expectations, even though it wasn’t physically possible to maintain them on a day to day basis. Change needs to happen at the highest level which can then be filtered down and become a cultural change. Corporate cultures are dead in my opinion and it’s about time the front line staff are paid properly for the disgusting and repulsive behaviour they have to put up with from the GP.

 

[Alsty]

The answer is quite simple. Hard working managers and team leaders that Karen's, Boomers and the Educated Class like to metaphorically spit on - get paid crap money to work crap hours on low low pay. They don't have the staff, payroll budgets or respect - and thus the authority - from their employers to be able to do anything about the situation. Everyone leaves, the economy changes and they can't recruit people for ****.

I don't dispute any of this but my question still stands. How can other hospitality venues provide a service that Alton Towers seemingly cannot?

The issues people have encountered are not failings by the staff on the ground but rather the organisation and its structure behind it. That's my point.

 

[Matt.GC]

I don't dispute any of this but my question still stands. How can other hospitality venues provide a service that Alton Towers seemingly cannot?

The issues people have encountered are not failings by the staff on the ground but rather the organisation and its structure behind it. That's my point.

I 100% get, agree and understand your point about the organisation that is Merlin. I'm not disputing that and there is a wider debate about how we pay and look after tertiary industry workers out there. Merlin certainly have chickens coming home to roost on this front.

But I'm not talking about Merlin. Everyone at Towers has to work for them. The context of the conversation was whether managers and team leaders at the resort are or are not training their people properly - as if they have the luxury of lolling around in class rooms teaching £9 an hour 20 year olds what sauvignon blanc and pinot grigio is when they're working 70 hours per week to barely keep their area of the business open.

There are plenty of hospitality businesses that are keeping their head above water. Plenty in food retail too. But it can vary even in the very next postcode. Some cities such as London, Birmingham and Bristol had a problem before the pandemic and Brexit let alone now. The odd local Travelodge or Brewers Fayre doing a bang up job is not representative of what is going on out there and the situation is not localised to Towers alone.

Again, I repeat that we weren't taking about Merlin being a bad guy employer here. We were taking about the disbelief that kids were being shoved behind a bar at peak times without knowing what they're doing. Well I'm sorry to rain on anyone's parade, but at the moment you employ the first person who you think will be reliable and of some use straight away. Anyone expecting Tom Cruise's character out of Cocktail to turn up behind Margaritas at any moment should open their eyes to just what it's like out there at the moment.

 

[pluk]

The context of the conversation was whether managers and team leaders at the resort are or are not training their people properly

No they are not.

But I'm not talking about Merlin being a bunch of *******s.
Again, I repeat that we weren't taking about Merlin being a bad guy employer here.

Yes we are, because that is why they are not training their people properly, which they patently aren't.

You can't just chose to separate these two things they are intrinsically linked.

We were taking about the disbelief that kids were being shoved behind a bar at peak times without knowing what they're doing.

Which should be disbelievable at a location with the corperate resources and finances that Merlin have and where the prices are as eye-watering as they continue to charge.

You don't need to take these comments personally.