How many practical driving tests did you take before passing?

[Matt N]

Anxiety is horrible, do you have any doubts about taking Rescue Remedy? I've no experience with it myself however it does seem to be rather reliant on the placebo effect.

I’ve never taken it for a prolonged period before. I tried it once for something different and it tasted vile, but if my driving instructor thinks it will help, I’m willing to give it a go. My instructor was very reassuring about it being “entirely natural”, and she also dissuaded me from over-the-counter anxiety tablets because “they make you drowsy, which is not what you want when driving!”.

She is insistent that many pupils of hers have tried it and it’s really helped them, and she has even taken it herself in the past and insists that it helps. She’s also far from the only person I know who absolutely swears by it; a lot of people have said it’s really helped them with anxiety.

I read up a little about it, and part of me is a bit sceptical about whether it would actually work, but if so many people insist that it does, then I think I’d be mad not to at least try it.

 

[Alix]

It’s homeopathy. Don’t waste your money - try mindfulness instead.

 

[Poisson]

The Heap can be driven with the handbrake on. No warning light and it's weak, so always parked in gear etc. I wouldn't worry about making the mistake once.

 

[Burbs]

This all just sounds extremely unfortunate Matt. As others have said, setting off with your handbrake on is something that happens to experienced drivers too - not like you’re putting anyone in danger necessarily, but can understand why an examiner might mark it as a major. But as you know, that was just your nerves.

As for the second major, obviously we don’t know the specifics and can’t see it from an outsider’s perspective, but so what if someone had to slow down because you committed to a maneuvre? If you’d stopped for them you’d probably be marked down for hesitation and/or causing a dangerous situation yourself?

6 minors is far better than you did before, mind you, so that’s a real positive to take away from the experience. If it helps, I heard that examiners might say someone got more majors than they actually did so as to not make the learner feel like they cocked up their test because of one silly mistake and gives them something more to think about. But this might be a load of old crap.

Onwards and upwards mate!

 

[Matt.GC]

I never realised how odd the numbering system is on the motorways. Presume it's a historical quirk of existing roads being updated.

Sabre nerd time from me.

You're right that it is an historical numbering convention, and some are numbered that don't make sense. However, the gist of the system is to think of the road network like a clock radiating from London. The A roads (I think it was in the 1920's?) were originally numbered clockwise in how their positions coming out of London. So as a south to north route, starting in London, you have the A1. Everything to the east of that will be numbered A1x until you get to the A2. This would be zone 1. Clockwise, everything from between the A2 and A3 would be in zone 2 and so fourth.

The motorways use the same system. It's why M1-M4 serve similar functions, or as approximate bypasses for the A1-A4 routes. However, this then starts looking odd when motorways and A roads start or end in different places and when a motorway doesn't radiate from London. The M5 for example starts in Birmingham and travels south. It's numbered M5 because it starts in zone 5, clockwise after where the M4 starts but before the M6 starting point. The M5 also, very closely at times, follows the route of the A38 and not the A5. That's because the A38, although the route has changed much at either end since it was originally numbered, did originally start in zone 3.

You may notice some breaches to the rules however. The M49 opened in the 1990's and has always followed the same route. Yet it clearly sits in zone 5 and not zone 4. I believe this was numbered this way as north of it sits the M48. The M48 is correct as it starts in zone 4, but it is north of the M49. So if the M49 was numbered as an M5x series, it would have looked odd but would have technically been numbered correctly.

Ax(M) routes are just parts of A roads with motorway restrictions. The A1(m) being the primary example where the main route of the A1 has only been partially upgraded to motorway standard. The whole radiating from London stuff falls apart when you get to Scotland, the M8 for example starts in zone 6 but I can see why they did that. But look at the map and you can see, although quite messy, it does kind of make sense.

Only saddos like me find this interesting, but this is all rooted historically on the main Roman routes out of London across the country. Many of he major A roads out of London that go elsewhere follow the approximate routes of the old Roman routes. As such, many of the main railway lines were built in the 1800's roughly following these routes as well. Fast forward to the 1960's and the main motorways were also built along these routes. So if you were to overlay that motorway map with one of the major rail line maps, you'd see a similar shape. M1 and A1 with the East coast mainline, M4 with the Great western mainline and South Wales mainline, M5 with the Bristol to Exeter mainline and Cross Country route, M6 with the West Coast mainline etc.

 

[Matt N]

That’s very interesting @Matt.GC; thanks for posting!

If you don’t mind me tapping into your SABRE knowledge for a second, I’d like to ask a few motorway questions.

Firstly; what’s actually the difference between dual carriageway standard and motorway standard other than that you can turn right on a dual carriageway and have slow vehicles driving along it? I quite frequently drive along the stretch of the A40 dual carriageway between Raglan and Ross-on-Wye during my driving lessons (indeed, my first driving test route took me along it, from Monmouth in South Wales to Whitchurch in Herefordshire), and I can’t see much that would differentiate that stretch of road from some motorways. It has a central reservation, it has two lanes in each traffic flow direction, it has slip roads at each junction, and it has motorway staples like service stations. Yes, it only has two lanes in each direction whereas some of the big motorways (e.g. the M4) have three or four, but my nearest motorway, the M48 between Magor and Bristol, also only has two lanes in each direction along its entire length. I’ve never been along it personally, but I believe that the M50 between Ross-on-Wye and Worcestershire, another motorway that isn’t too far from me, is similar if I’m not mistaken.

Secondly, are there “tiers” of motorway, if you like, with some being maintained and built to a slightly higher standard than others? On the motorway map posted earlier, I noticed that the major ones like the M4 were highlighted in bold blue, whereas the more minor ones like the M48 were not. I also ask this question because as I said above, many of the more minor motorways seem to have things like less lanes and different lengths of slip road. The minor ones also never seem to have had the smart motorway upgrade, and the general standard of maintenance seems to be a bit lower. For instance, the entire M48 through Wales is now capped at 50mph for the foreseeable future due to defective barriers, and there’s no sign of those being fixed any time soon.

 

[Bowser]

Firstly; what’s actually the difference between dual carriageway standard and motorway standard other than that you can turn right on a dual carriageway and have slow vehicles driving along it?

I think @Matt.GC will have a better answer but off the top of my head:

- Motorways have variable speed limits
- Lorries and other large vehicles have restrictions to which lanes they can use on motorways

 

[Poisson]

Vans and larger vehicles are speed restricted on dual carriageways to 60mph

 

[Thameslink Rail]

You can also legally cycle and ride a horse on a dual carriageway but not a motorway (I wouldn't recommend it though)

 

[Matt.GC]

That’s very interesting @Matt.GC; thanks for posting!

If you don’t mind me tapping into your SABRE knowledge for a second, I’d like to ask a few motorway questions.

Firstly; what’s actually the difference between dual carriageway standard and motorway standard other than that you can turn right on a dual carriageway and have slow vehicles driving along it? I quite frequently drive along the stretch of the A40 dual carriageway between Raglan and Ross-on-Wye during my driving lessons (indeed, my first driving test route took me along it, from Monmouth in South Wales to Whitchurch in Herefordshire), and I can’t see much that would differentiate that stretch of road from some motorways. It has a central reservation, it has two lanes in each traffic flow direction, it has slip roads at each junction, and it has motorway staples like service stations. Yes, it only has two lanes in each direction whereas some of the big motorways (e.g. the M4) have three or four, but my nearest motorway, the M48 between Magor and Bristol, also only has two lanes in each direction along its entire length. I’ve never been along it personally, but I believe that the M50 between Ross-on-Wye and Worcestershire, another motorway that isn’t too far from me, is similar if I’m not mistaken.

Secondly, are there “tiers” of motorway, if you like, with some being maintained and built to a slightly higher standard than others? On the motorway map posted earlier, I noticed that the major ones like the M4 were highlighted in bold blue, whereas the more minor ones like the M48 were not. I also ask this question because as I said above, many of the more minor motorways seem to have things like less lanes and different lengths of slip road. The minor ones also never seem to have had the smart motorway upgrade, and the general standard of maintenance seems to be a bit lower. For instance, the entire M48 through Wales is now capped at 50mph for the foreseeable future due to defective barriers, and there’s no sign of those being fixed any time soon.

Very interesting question. Again it has historical meaning rooted in this country's laws around rights of way. So the A40 you mentioned? Well if you wanted to you could ride along it with your push bike, on horseback or even walk along side it as long as you aren't blocking the public highway or doing anything deemed as dangerous. Roads pre-date cars, before cars people would walk or ride horses along them. So this presented a problem in the 1950's when the government wanted to build high speed limited access highways (it's actually where the name Motorway comes from, to distinguish a road for motor vehicles only from that of all access roads). So parliament passed the Special Roads Act.

The Special Roads Act meant that for the first time in this country, roads could be designated as special roads with limited access that did not give everyone an automatic right of way. All motorways are special roads. Hence the restrictions. All of them are controlled and maintained by the national highways agency and not local authorities.

A duel carriageway is just another design of road. Some are built close to motorway standard but most are not. There are strict rules around motorway standards but there are some exceptions. For instance, there is actually a single carriageway motorway (I think it's near Manchester?) because any road without an escape route, that leads directly on to a motorway, has to be classed as one itself. So if you see an odd kind of motorway, it's likely a project that was unfinished or cancelled at some point. As for ones like the M50, it is one of the oldest motorways in the country. It was actually built to motorway standard at the time, but standards then improved in the 1960's and 70's. Many important routes like the M5 (which was built at the same time between Ray Hall and Strensham and terminated at the latter, hence why the M50 even exists to continue talking M5 traffic towards Ross) were upgraded to higher standards. You may notice the sharp corners on the M5 as you get closer to Birmingham and the hard shoulder drops under bridges? That's because it was built to lower standards originally, as dual 2 lane and has been upgraded. The M50 is not an important motorway so has never been upgraded but still keeps it's status.

The Preston bypass, now part of the M6, was the first motorway in the country (not the M1, which was the first full length but contrary to popular belief the Preston bypass was the first). It opened as duel 2 lanes, with no central barrier (just a patch of grass that people actually used to stop and have picnics on!), soft shoulders which were just gravel and mud, and hideously low capacity grade separated junctions. It was shortly afterwards completely rebuilt , including every bridge and junction and is now double the width. Very little of the original remains at all (I think part of Samelsbury interchange is all that remains).

So to summarise as I'm waffling on, there aren't strictly tiers of motorways. All have the same restrictions unless otherwise stated, such as national dual carriageway speed limit, physical central barriers, no horse drawn carriages etc. Tiers only exist in how important that are really in terms of funding and design standards, hence why some can be D2 (like the M50) and some can be D5 (M25 near Heathrow). You mentioned the M48, this actually used to be the M4 across the Severn Bridge, but because it's only D2 it became hideously congested by the early 90's. Hence the Second Severn crossing (which actually isn't the second) and new route of the D3 M4, which I remember I went on a primary school trip to Severn beach to see being built. Both crossings are motorways, both are special roads, both are maintained solely by the national highways agency, both have the same restrictions unless otherwise stated, even though their widths and design standards differ.

The A40 you mentioned has likely been upgraded to higher standards over many decades to ease traffic congestion, but does not have a statatury instrument and is not a special road. It's likely partly maintained by a local authority. However to muddy the waters further, there are a few A roads that are designated as special roads but these are extremely rare. I think there's one up your way actually Matt. I'll have dig and edit the post with a link that explains it.

Edit: Here you go @Matt N. One of the most interesting websites on the internet for saddos like me. This article explains special roads. Basically the short answer to your question is that the difference is in the designation of being a special road or not and not design standards, width, layout or anything like that. https://pathetic.org.uk/features/special_roads/#:~:text=All motorways are Special Roads,t Special at all...

 

[John]

Pathetic motorways is strangely compelling for a website that by all accounts should be completely uninteresting.

For instance, there is actually a single carriageway motorway (I think it's near Manchester?)

You may be thinking of the Carrington spur (A6144(M) from M60, J7), which was a single carriageway motorway until it was downgraded when the junction it led to was widened (allowing non-motorway traffic to escape by going all the way round the roundabout). It's now a regular A road. Another single carriageway motorway off the M6 in Carnforth (A601(M))was also downgraded, this time to a B road, when a retail park was built adjacent to it. There are probably other examples of single carriageway motorway spurs but the above two were unusual in that they had official numbering separate to their parent motorway, making them single carriageway motorways in their own right.

For further incredibly dull but strangely fascinating reading, roads.org has a series of in-depth articles all about the UK road numbering system.

 

[rob666]

Dual carriageways can have junctions for individual properties, farms and businesses, motorways have none.

 

[Bowser]

Dual carriageways can have traffic lights and roundabouts as well.

 

[rob666]

Though there are motorway only roundabouts!

 

[Katy]

Though there are motorway only roundabouts!

That one on the way to Accrington took me by surprise, last thing I expected was a roundabout (with faded road markings) on a motorway route.

 

[Matt.GC]

Pathetic motorways is strangely compelling for a website that by all accounts should be completely uninteresting.



You may be thinking of the Carrington spur (A6144(M) from M60, J7), which was a single carriageway motorway until it was downgraded when the junction it led to was widened (allowing non-motorway traffic to escape by going all the way round the roundabout). It's now a regular A road. Another single carriageway motorway off the M6 in Carnforth (A601(M))was also downgraded, this time to a B road, when a retail park was built adjacent to it. There are probably other examples of single carriageway motorway spurs but the above two were unusual in that they had official numbering separate to their parent motorway, making them single carriageway motorways in their own right.

For further incredibly dull but strangely fascinating reading, roads.org has a series of in-depth articles all about the UK road numbering system.

Yes I've come across that site before as well. It's all strangely endearing for a subject that should really be as dry as plasterboard by nature.

That's the one I was thinking of, the Carrington spur.

I suppose what got me into this kind of stuff is that it turns out I live in area that's very interesting for motorway geeks and road enthusiasts.

Nearby is the incredible engineering feats of the split level M5 Gordano bypass between Clevedon and Portbury, followed by the Avonmouth Bridge.

The section of M5 that bypasses Collumpton pre-dates the M5 on either side of it a bit like the M6 Preston bypass, evidenced by the bridges changing to being brick built for a few miles as opposed to the usual 1970's concrete design on either side. There's still evidence of the original terminal roundabout on the ground. The Filton bypass is now part of the M5 and was actually originally built in the 1940's although it was never a motorway before the M5 came.

The Almondsbury interchange was the first 4 level stack built in the UK, and was opened in 1966 by the Queen at the same time as the M4 (now M48) Severn Bridge and there are black and white pictures of her standing in the middle of the carriageway. Severn View Services no longer has a view of the Severn, but the original building still exists and is owned by an IT company. It was quite a stunning service station in terms of views and was operator Forte's flagship. I remember visiting it shortly before it closed but there's still a public footpath that runs through the site. You can park at the services and walk up to find a telescope overlooking the bridge and a plaque commemorating the bridge with quite an amazing view, and a footpath then gives access to the bridge where you can walk across from England to Wales.

I remember watching the new bridge, rerouted M4 and M49 being built as a kid. There's loads of interesting artifacts on the ground, like secret access roads between the motorways for emergency vehicles. The M49 is also the only motorway in the country without junctions that connects one motorway with another (although a junction has been built near and Amazon warehouse but never opened.) so is really an M5 spur.

There were plans for a spur motorway that went into Weston-super-Mare from St George's interchange to the sea front. The bridge that carries the old A370 (now B3440) into Worle carried traffic over nothing for 20 years until the A370 was rerouted onto a new dual carriageway in the 90's. There's room for a hard shoulder on either side under the bridge and southbound slip road off the M5 looks like it was built to carry a flyover over the junction. Between St George's and Clevedon interchanges, the M5 has a wide central reservation to allow upgrading to D4 and the junction at Clevedon is massive but only connects the M5 with a single B road. That's because the original plan was to build a southern motorway into Bristol, like the M32 does in the north. Some of this was actually built in the 1970's. The A370 long Ashton bypass is D2 with room for hard shoulders through bridges, the flyover is S3 and is actually 1 carriageway of the original motorway, hence why it's sloped at an angle for drainage and has 3 lanes (would have been 2 + hard shoulder).

There's rumours from locals but no hard evidence found so far that the plan was to build a southern ring motorway around Bristol, that would have connected this southern link with the M4 near Pucklechurch. The M4 and M5 would have acted as the northern part of the ring. Would explain why Bristol is the only city of it's size in the country that has neither a complete orbital road or rapid public transport network. The 90's built so called "ring road" pathetically links Hicks Gate roundabout at Keynesham with the M32 and runs along the East of the city, but comes to a crashing halt at either end. Whilst the areas in the southern part of the city are very poor, the countryside outside of the city limits that surrounds it is protected green belt (Jacob Reece-Mogg's constituency) so I'd imagine that's why nothing could be built there. Still, the later A4174 does follow a dual carriageway alignment that looks too coincidental. After struggling through horridly congested urban roads, the A4174 emerges again as dual carriageway at Hengrove and if you look at Google maps you can see from above that there is a gap in the buildings in the area that runs all the way to the Long Ashton bypass. Part of this route was reused when the south Bristol link was built a few years ago to link the A4174, A38 to Bristol airport and A370 long Ashton bypass together.

Sad I know, but I love this stuff. Something extremely interesting about it all.

 

[djtruefitt]

Passed on my first time

 

[Martin]

This is absolute top drawer dad talk oh my god.

Second time. Can't remember exactly what got me first time round but I remember it being a bit harsh but also fair enough at the same time. Second time I'd thought I'd failed early on which took the pressure off for a while until I realised later I was still passing, which helped me focus and stick the landing.

 

[pluk]

People over think driving on motorways. In practical terms as a car driver it's the same as a national speed limit duel + carriageway and you follow the same rules. If anything there are far fewer variances and distractions so it's actually much easier, in fact it's too easy and one of the biggest issues is keeping your concentration levels up over long periods.

 

[rob666]

Only additional guidance I got for motorways was...
"Look further ahead".
That was my after test advice from my instructor...and a motorway lesson post test (as it used to be)..."You don't need it, waste of your money."
How things have changed.