siralgenon
TS Member
Not very.
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How optimistic are you about the UK industry?
- Thread starter Rick
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Sauron97
TS Member
Under priced passes (or vouchers) reflect on the offering currently given more than anything. Big chunks of revenue are generated from outlet/food spending, fast pass spending, car park spending, which has allowed major operators to get away with not improving theme park offerings and ripping off the public in the process. And accommodation is obviously at the top of the list.
That being said I accept that Merlin becoming a PHC is something to pay attention to. Hopefully a clearer and more straight forward and single minded direction can be achieved in the future, and we end up seeing more investments like Wickerman, but with an emphasis on themed experience (preferably something that gives the park character instead of being chosen from simple market research or IP driven) .
I can't see why they'd lose their appeal or why the smiler crash would have any long term impact. It was the media that were to blame for creating the hysteria a lot of people had pre-2018, and as time has gone on and the appetite has changed they've found other stories to make money off.
A lot of the figures who set up/transformed the British theme parks in the late 80s and 90s are still around, but because of industry demands have been forced to roll back and take on more consultancy based work rather than in big studios. That's not because they aren't 'top designers', it's simply the fact that they've had to make microeconomic decisions and stay afloat in a rapidly transforming industry.
Overall, however, I think most people are right to say there's little optimism in the industry. I don't think it's a losing taste of appreciation for parks as there's always been a desire for fun and excitement, but as other posters have already pointed out, tech, more choices, poorer patience have made it somewhat harder to maintain fast growth. Fundamentally, the problem lies with the existing offering, the monopoly we currently have, and really I think more than ever a new park is needed that solves these points. Perhaps with Paulton's going in the direction it is, it will became that 'new' park, or perhaps it will have to be an entirely new park altogether, but until then the industry is pretty directionless.
oh, and another thing to note is how hard it is to built in this country because of land and development regulations. Whatever site is best to built a theme park, I'd bet that property developers are already making moves on it.
That being said I accept that Merlin becoming a PHC is something to pay attention to. Hopefully a clearer and more straight forward and single minded direction can be achieved in the future, and we end up seeing more investments like Wickerman, but with an emphasis on themed experience (preferably something that gives the park character instead of being chosen from simple market research or IP driven) .
I can't see why they'd lose their appeal or why the smiler crash would have any long term impact. It was the media that were to blame for creating the hysteria a lot of people had pre-2018, and as time has gone on and the appetite has changed they've found other stories to make money off.
I don't think asking 'who are the top designers or entrepreneurs' is a fair point; that is, if you're suggesting that creative talent doesn't exist in the UK. It does, but amidst the corporate market structure and beaurocracy that we currently have, it's very hard for the talents of those figures to be realized.
A lot of the figures who set up/transformed the British theme parks in the late 80s and 90s are still around, but because of industry demands have been forced to roll back and take on more consultancy based work rather than in big studios. That's not because they aren't 'top designers', it's simply the fact that they've had to make microeconomic decisions and stay afloat in a rapidly transforming industry.
Overall, however, I think most people are right to say there's little optimism in the industry. I don't think it's a losing taste of appreciation for parks as there's always been a desire for fun and excitement, but as other posters have already pointed out, tech, more choices, poorer patience have made it somewhat harder to maintain fast growth. Fundamentally, the problem lies with the existing offering, the monopoly we currently have, and really I think more than ever a new park is needed that solves these points. Perhaps with Paulton's going in the direction it is, it will became that 'new' park, or perhaps it will have to be an entirely new park altogether, but until then the industry is pretty directionless.
oh, and another thing to note is how hard it is to built in this country because of land and development regulations. Whatever site is best to built a theme park, I'd bet that property developers are already making moves on it.
ChristmasPud
TS Member
In regards to big studios closing, that happened earlier than youre suggesting I think, it just became less economical being an all-in-one powerhouse churning out rides. There reached a point where that sort of work was full because there are only so many parks in the UK you can build. So it isn't necessarily a bad thing and tends to be how most construction & creative industries work.
But good talent not getting used, totally, the monopoly in the UK often means there is only one system and one game you have to play if you want to make rides for the main 'big' parks and the other big parks seem to be developing with less and less conviction sadly. Although there are always happy exceptions.
Also I think a lot on the design side gets lost with many people trying hard to look like "the next John Wardley", meanwhile theyre just a fairly low salaried designer sitting in a boring office without much creative control, and if they wise up to it and leave then there's a revolving door of similar people to fill their place. If there was good competition this would happen less, as shown among the big parks in Europe.
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Sauron97
TS Member
Oh for sure @BritishThemeParkArchive , I recognize that peak design studio years (in the UK) were earlier than the period I mentioned. But a fair amount of the figures from earlier decades who you are probably alluding to are sadly less likely to still be either active or still around, I was more on about those who were active in the not so recent past and are still active now witnessing the change to the current situation we have. I think it's right of you to point that out though, as a lot of people forget that the UK had such a rich history when it came to designing attractions, and I know that this is a focal point for people like you who see just how much slips under the radar. I suppose that's the problem before the internet became a big thing.
I think it's fairer to say that a lot of the late 80s 90s crowd are still in the game in some way or another, or have taken over the family business from their parents. These people are still top designers (point being that their talents are still there, answering the poster that was skeptical of this), but admittedly have had to , rather tragically in some cases, pack the larger scale stuff in, or even operate mostly outside of the country rather than inside. Talking late 90s early noughties timescale. I think you will know straight away of studios which in particular this applies to
I also completely get your point about how the way the industry works now with Merlin means have influences creative decision making, partly I guess due to the fact the labour market being a monopsony where Merlin's criteria > all else including creative independence. And a wider point I suppose is the lack of salary in most creative industries out there, bar architecture and some emerging computer areas maybe.
I'd like to see the return of a large UK leisure design studio, perhaps using the smaller UK parks as a client to help develop and shape them in to parks that could challenge Merlin a little. I think the opportunities are there, particularly with the potential for some sort of new UK park somewhere in England, but maybe I'm wrong.
Like all things in life it requires dollar
I think it's fairer to say that a lot of the late 80s 90s crowd are still in the game in some way or another, or have taken over the family business from their parents. These people are still top designers (point being that their talents are still there, answering the poster that was skeptical of this), but admittedly have had to , rather tragically in some cases, pack the larger scale stuff in, or even operate mostly outside of the country rather than inside. Talking late 90s early noughties timescale. I think you will know straight away of studios which in particular this applies to
I also completely get your point about how the way the industry works now with Merlin means have influences creative decision making, partly I guess due to the fact the labour market being a monopsony where Merlin's criteria > all else including creative independence. And a wider point I suppose is the lack of salary in most creative industries out there, bar architecture and some emerging computer areas maybe.
I'd like to see the return of a large UK leisure design studio, perhaps using the smaller UK parks as a client to help develop and shape them in to parks that could challenge Merlin a little. I think the opportunities are there, particularly with the potential for some sort of new UK park somewhere in England, but maybe I'm wrong.
Like all things in life it requires dollar
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There certainly are some talented creative designers in the themed entertainment industry. That’s clear from many of the escape rooms and seasonal scare mazes out there.
I do also accept that there’s talent in the industry designing attractions for other countries. Particularly for up and coming markets like the Middle East, where a lot of the design and management work is done in Europe and America. I do think in the long run it’s going to be difficult for the British industry to thrive on designing and managing attractions thousands of miles away. In the end these countries will develop their own talent, who understand their markets better, can speak the local language and who can probably undercut the British firms. It’s difficult to provide services to a business in another continent as cheaply as to a business down the road. It’s not always as satisfactory conducting meetings over Skype, and hopping around the world is expensive and ultimately the client has to foot the bill. At the moment the Asian parks are using European firms for all kinds of services, but over time I see that relationship getting smaller. It is true that Switzerland has some big theme park firms without having much in the way of theme parks themselves, but I think for the backend of the UK industry to survive in the long term, we need our own parks to be successful.
Talent’s important, but what made John Wardley legendary wasn’t the concept art on his Linked In profile, it was the rides he created. The original question was how optimistic do people feel about the industry? To feel optimistic, you have to believe that we’ve got both the talent, but also the means of converting it into tangible results. I think we’re kidding ourselves if we start saying, “We’ve got a thriving industry. Check it out on Linked In”.
I do also accept that there’s talent in the industry designing attractions for other countries. Particularly for up and coming markets like the Middle East, where a lot of the design and management work is done in Europe and America. I do think in the long run it’s going to be difficult for the British industry to thrive on designing and managing attractions thousands of miles away. In the end these countries will develop their own talent, who understand their markets better, can speak the local language and who can probably undercut the British firms. It’s difficult to provide services to a business in another continent as cheaply as to a business down the road. It’s not always as satisfactory conducting meetings over Skype, and hopping around the world is expensive and ultimately the client has to foot the bill. At the moment the Asian parks are using European firms for all kinds of services, but over time I see that relationship getting smaller. It is true that Switzerland has some big theme park firms without having much in the way of theme parks themselves, but I think for the backend of the UK industry to survive in the long term, we need our own parks to be successful.
Talent’s important, but what made John Wardley legendary wasn’t the concept art on his Linked In profile, it was the rides he created. The original question was how optimistic do people feel about the industry? To feel optimistic, you have to believe that we’ve got both the talent, but also the means of converting it into tangible results. I think we’re kidding ourselves if we start saying, “We’ve got a thriving industry. Check it out on Linked In”.
ChristmasPud
TS Member
@Sauron97 I think it's a funny situation in the UK, developing parks has always been a European wide exercise because the UK alone just isn't big enough. There was a great flurry of developments in the early 80s but then the country was full really, even then the big studios did most their work abroad. It was the competition between parks that kept things going after then.
You're right it's a sign that the UK industry isnt in best health that you'd be better off going abroad if you want to join the big league. Otherwise you'd be just a cog in a stubborn machine in most UK big parks. We dont really see big development in UK parks anymore. And if you want to be a creative designer, the best creative opportunities in the UK are on the fringes really.
The downside of a fragmented industry is that younger generations dont really have anywhere to go to learn. Without big creative studios like that, the learning and resources get lost, since that's all built up with time and experience. There isn't really a route for young people to take to get that experience. How do we produce great park planners, animatronic designers, scenic artists, etc like we used to? These standards have been lost in the last 10 years. University degrees dont teach you this stuff.
You're right it's a sign that the UK industry isnt in best health that you'd be better off going abroad if you want to join the big league. Otherwise you'd be just a cog in a stubborn machine in most UK big parks. We dont really see big development in UK parks anymore. And if you want to be a creative designer, the best creative opportunities in the UK are on the fringes really.
The downside of a fragmented industry is that younger generations dont really have anywhere to go to learn. Without big creative studios like that, the learning and resources get lost, since that's all built up with time and experience. There isn't really a route for young people to take to get that experience. How do we produce great park planners, animatronic designers, scenic artists, etc like we used to? These standards have been lost in the last 10 years. University degrees dont teach you this stuff.
Yeah, there's great talent out there but it's easier than ever to draw, the making stuff happen is the key part that's missing from the industry today really. Most design doesnt get shown on places like Linkedin too (Linkedin tends to be more an advertising platform anyway)
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Themeparksandy1981
TS Member
If you read trip-advisor only Alton Towers made it into the top 10 of theme parks visited based on reviews https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....480/tripadvisor-best-uk-theme-parks-2019/amp/
Families want value for money and many of theses places are by holiday destinations so families will visit them. I visited the Milky Way Theme Park 2 years ago in August and for less than £40 for the 3 of us to get in and £30 on food and drink all day it was good value for money for what was on offer.
Families want value for money and many of theses places are by holiday destinations so families will visit them. I visited the Milky Way Theme Park 2 years ago in August and for less than £40 for the 3 of us to get in and £30 on food and drink all day it was good value for money for what was on offer.