Incident In Woolwich & The Bigger Questions

[GaryH]

It was a murder, not an act of terrorism.

So are you saying because he was a Muslim, who committed a horrific act of unprovoked violence, he MUST belong to a terrorist group, and wasn't an extremely wee-weed off idiot who doesn't think before they act?

Being a Muslim has NOTHING to do with it. There have been plenty of British people who have converted to extremist Islam who have been charged with terrorism offences for conspiring to kill others in the name of their beliefs.

As I have said, nothing to do with his colour or religion, nothing at all, you keep thinking it is, but it isnt.

 

[Martin]

You said "what makes this different from the IRA", which suggests to me you're of the opinion he was a member of a terror group.

Using that definition of terrorism that Ashlee posted, if I punched a UKIP councillor and said it was because I disagree with his politics, I would therefore be a terrorist.

Until there's actually evidence there was more to this than a lone nutter (well, two) snapping, all this talk of terrorism is nonsense.

The Muslim community has idiots, doesn't mean they're all terrorists. They have their idiots, but luckily, us white folk have the EDL/BnP/UKIP to remind us every race has idiots.

 

[Sam]

This was an act of terrorism because it was violence committed with a political motive - that being to heighten terror among the general populace. That is clear from the video of the attacker speaking just after the attack. He clearly outlines that this attack was purely political.

Brievik is also a terrorist, though from the opposite end of the political spectrum. Other murders, even with a higher body count, such as the Cumbria shootings, are not terrorism. They are not carried out with a political purpose, or with the intent of terrorising a population.

 

[GaryH]

You said "what makes this different from the IRA", which suggests to me you're of the opinion he was a member of a terror group.

...

The Muslim community has idiots, doesn't mean they're all terrorists. They have their idiots, but luckily, us white folk have the EDL/BnP/UKIP to remind us every race has idiots.

You seem to be quite frustrated that because its someone who is Muslim, and coloured, that suddenly everyone jumps on the bandwagon and calls him a terrorist. Im not saying he was a member of a terror group but there is clear evidence from the guy himself saying why he has done it which aligns him to terrorist organisations. If I went out now and killed someone in the same manner, and chanted the same stuff, I would also be classed as a terrorist.

Yeah every community has idiots, your right....... though not sure where UKIP comes into this but no doubt thats another topic........

 

[Sam]

Whether he was part of a terrorist group or not is irrelevant. You can be a lone terrorist (Timothy McVeigh) or acting as part of a terrorist group (Al-Qaeda). Either way, this was a terrorist attack, as clearly shown by the footage of the attacker explaining his motives.

If he is 'mad' or not also seems a bit irrelevant to me. I personally would class anyone who goes around butchering innocent people as mad. Whatever his mental health state, his motives have been made clear, and he can be classified as a terrorist.

 

[Martin]

You said "what makes this different from the IRA", which suggests to me you're of the opinion he was a member of a terror group.

...

The Muslim community has idiots, doesn't mean they're all terrorists. They have their idiots, but luckily, us white folk have the EDL/BnP/UKIP to remind us every race has idiots.

You seem to be quite frustrated that because its someone who is Muslim, and coloured, that suddenly everyone jumps on the bandwagon and calls him a terrorist. Im not saying he was a member of a terror group but there is clear evidence from the guy himself saying why he has done it which aligns him to terrorist organisations. If I went out now and killed someone in the same manner, and chanted the same stuff, I would also be classed as a terrorist.

Yeah every community has idiots, your right....... though not sure where UKIP comes into this but no doubt thats another topic........

Yes but I also hate the government and don't think we should be at war in Islamic lands. That doesn't align me with Al Qaeda.

If you don't know how UKIP come into it you haven't been paying much attention to them lately, but that is another topic.

This has all been about jumping to conclusions and profiling from the start. Did you watch the news? They were frothing at the mouth, linking it to Boston, the Glasgow attacks, 7/7, the lot, as well as the rather embarrassing thing where this 'Asian Muslim looking man' the news were going on about turned out to be black and a cockney. They apologised later but by not stating their source was the police/MOD who were not at the scene gives away their prejudice.

 

[Alastair]

It was only a few weeks ago that this happened, a similarly brutal murder with suspected racial motives - although it received considerably less coverage; and was in fact only mentioned in passing on national news. Granted the much more public nature of yesterday's horrible events make it more newsworthy but it does make me cringe when people tar all Muslims with the same brush via brusque, crude comments (such as the like I've read today on Twitter) because of these kind of events.

 

[Plastic Person]

I think it's proper dodgy that the media also cut out the murderer's direct reference to Cameron, and the withdrawal of troops. Like I said, had it not been for the murder, I would have probably considered this guy fairly observant in a sixth former sort of manner.

 

[EuroSatch]

It was a planned attack on a British Soldier, targeted because he was a soldier. That makes it a terrorist attack. Wgetherit was from an organised terrorist group is a different matter

 

[gosling]

By definition it is a terrorist act. Killing people with a political motive. (which also makes our government and troops terrorists but that's a different hot potato) Anybody killing or harming anybody else with politics or religion as a motive is just foul (well, killing at all to be clear) and these men are disgusting. As long as we're all happy to agree on that.

But I agree with Blaze more or less. The coverage of this is all out of whack of how it would be reported if two white men had done the same thing. I know people are angry and tensions are high but this is no time for the rose tinted glasses tbh.

 

[GaryH]

Yes but I also hate the government and don't think we should be at war in Islamic lands. That doesn't align me with Al Qaeda.

Yes but if you went out onto the streets and started killing people while spouting off the same stuff these two guys were saying, that would make you a terrorist, because your aims are aligned with Al Qaeda.

 

[Martin]

Yes, because opposing the government, it's wars, and pointing out brutal murders like that happen every day in other countries means I agree with everything Al Qaeda believe, and that if I hacked someone to bits that'd make me one of them.

So if I was a Catholic, blew up a hotel and said "Give Ireland back to the Irish" I'd automatically be a member of the IRA?

Erm, no.

 

[GaryH]

Yes, because opposing the government, it's wars, and pointing out brutal murders like that happen every day in other countries means I agree with everything Al Qaeda believe, and that if I hacked someone to bits that'd make me one of them.

So if I was a Catholic, blew up a hotel and said "Give Ireland back to the Irish" I'd automatically be a member of the IRA?

Erm, no.

I really dont understand where you are going with this. On the one hand yes I see your point in some regard, but, on the other hand its emerged that they were known to the Security Services, and as for banging on about them being Muslim, one was actually born Christian but converted to Islam. Not that religion should have anything to do with it.

As for the Irish comment, if you did that, no doubt links would be made between you and the IRA yes - though you have to bear in mind the IRA have since ceased their activities, Al Qaeda are still alive and kicking and out to cause as much death and destruction to their enemies as possible.

 

[Martin]

But religion does have everything to do with it, because that's all the press have been interested in from the start. "Muslim terrorist kills soldier". If it was a Christian, they wouldn't have mentioned it. But now you're saying religion shouldn't have anything to do with it, despite last night pointing out he said Allahu Akbar etc.

The thing is, this was linked to Al Qaeda long before any facts were established. As soon as eye witnesses suggested he may have been a Muslim, they reeled out every attack Al Qaeda have done over here. Which would have been fine if they knew the facts, but at that stage, they didn't.

And linking every politically driven crime by a Muslim to Al Qaeda/other Islamic terror groups seems rather racist.

 

[Quetzal]

I think it's interesting how much terrorism has changed after the advent of Social Media. No longer to organisations have to fly planes into buildings to get their messages across. The internet, and the reaction of bystanders does this for them.

 

[gosling]

All I really hope is that none of you are getting your information or forming your opinions about this from the Daily Fail.

The media are the worst people to look to for answers and information.

 

[Martin]

All goes back to the mentality of this country. That anyone that does something it doesn't like, especially someone different, is a grubby little terrorist doing it for no reason other than hatred. England can do no wrong, apparently.

Apparently this was an unprovoked attack, the man had no reason at all to attack the military... You know, apart from illegal wars in Islamic lands and drone strikes...

 

[Sam]

Yes, because opposing the government, it's wars, and pointing out brutal murders like that happen every day in other countries means I agree with everything Al Qaeda believe, and that if I hacked someone to bits that'd make me one of them.

So if I was a Catholic, blew up a hotel and said "Give Ireland back to the Irish" I'd automatically be a member of the IRA?

Erm, no.

Blaze, how many more pages of this topic are you going to waste with incorrect pedantry?

Does opposing the government make you a terrorist? No.
Does committing violence based on your opposition to the government make you a terrorist? Yes.
Does blowing up a hotel shouting "Give Ireland back to the Irish" make you a member of the IRA? No.
Does blowing up a hotel shouting "Give Ireland back to the Irish" make you a terrorist? Yes.
Do you have to be a member of a terrorist group to be a terrorist? No.
Do you have to be a member of the IRA to support Irish nationalism? No.

These guys are terrorists, by all established definitions of the word. Feel free to take this up with the OED rather than continuing to sideline this topic. End of discussion. Move on.

 

[Fredward]

A psychopath chopped someones head off, and justified his actions by bringing religion into it. This had nothing to do with Religion, because Muslims do not teach such actions. Same way the psychopaths at the westminster baptist church, gang up on homosexual rights and picket and protest heavy metal musicians funerals.

This should be treated as it is. A psychopath chops someone's head off, it should be ignored that this has anything to do with Muslims.

It's just sad that all this sympathy is not towards the poor man and his family. Especially if he is a soldier I can imagine this being horrendously shocking, since you expect him to safe when not out on duty and on homeland.

 

[Martin]

Blaze, how many more pages of this topic are you going to waste with incorrect pedantry?

Does opposing the government make you a terrorist? No.
Does committing violence based on your opposition to the government make you a terrorist? Yes.
Does blowing up a hotel shouting "Give Ireland back to the Irish" make you a member of the IRA? No.
Does blowing up a hotel shouting "Give Ireland back to the Irish" make you a terrorist? Yes.
Do you have to be a member of a terrorist group to be a terrorist? No.
Do you have to be a member of the IRA to support Irish nationalism? No.

These guys are terrorists, by all established definitions of the word. Feel free to take this up with the OED rather than continuing to sideline this topic. End of discussion. Move on.

I didn't say blowing up a hotel didn't make you a terrorist. I said IRA. In the same way the man in this attack isn't automatically a member of an Islamist terror cell, as has been assumed.

You don't seem to have read much of the discussion. This isn't about whether he's a terrorist or not, it's about branding him as a member of a terrorist group before any evidence points either way.