'International Holocaust Remembrance Day' is a scam

[Sam]

Because apparently, I'm not allowed to express my views about the Holocaust Memorial Day in a topic called 'Holocaust Memorial Day'. The TST staff have dictated from above that the aforementioned topic can only have one kind of opinion of its subject matter expressed within it (tributes and memorials to the holocaust, which is a separate subject), so I'm having to create a second topic about the same thing. :

Anyway, my original post again:

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The 'Holocaust Memorial Day' is just a wheeze cooked up by Israel in their continuing mission to stifle free speech.

By all means, remember the victims of the Holocaust. But not using Israel's invention, designed purely to further their genocide of the Palestinians by making criticism of their brutal regime 'off-limits' for a whole week each year.

 

[LiamC]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

By all means, remember the victims of the Holocaust. But not using Israel's invention, designed purely to further their genocide of the Palestinians by making criticism of their brutal regime 'off-limits' for a whole week each year.

We have a day to celebrate, quite frankly, a deluded, psychologically disturbed mans birthday in December so I think a week to remember 9-11 million people being systematically wiped from the face of the Earth is light.

Remember the Holocaust doesn't include just the Jewish but Roma Gypsies, Poles and other Slavs, political dissidents and dissenting clergy, persons with physical or mental disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and Homosexuals not to mention thousands of others the Nazi regime considered "undesirable"

I am, however, on your side regarding Israel's ongoing subjugation of Palestine. I just don't agree that we shouldn't be remembering victims on Holocaust day.

 

[Adam]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

I completely agree with you mate.

Don't take this as me trying to start some stupid "Jews run the media" conspiracy crap, but the way the media in the west portrays Israel is absurd. Why don't the innocent Palestinians killed by Israel get any recognition? Why is anyone in the Middle East who opposes the Israeli state portrayed in the west as a terrorist?

Of course, the Holocaust was an incredibly horrific part of recent history, and the innocent people tortured and killed by Hitler deserve respect & remembrance, but to me it's just pathetic the way Israel itself is guilty of oppression, yet this gets zero mention in the US, UK etc.

 

[Sam]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

By all means, remember the victims of the Holocaust. But not using Israel's invention, designed purely to further their genocide of the Palestinians by making criticism of their brutal regime 'off-limits' for a whole week each year.

We have a day to celebrate, quite frankly, a deluded, psychologically disturbed mans birthday in December so I think a week to remember 9-11 million people being systematically wiped from the face of the Earth is light.

Remember the Holocaust doesn't include just the Jewish but Roma Gypsies, Poles and other Slavs, political dissidents and dissenting clergy, persons with physical or mental disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and Homosexuals not to mention thousands of others the Nazi regime considered "undesirable"

I am, however, on your side regarding Israel's ongoing subjugation of Palestine. I just don't agree that we shouldn't be remembering victims on Holocaust day.

I can understand if you were talking about the biblical God, but Jesus...? I wouldn't call him a "deluded, psychologically disturbed man"...

Let me just make it clear: of course I'm not against remembering the victims of the Holocaust, or even having an international day of remembrance. I'm against this international day of remembrance, which was entirely thought up and designed by Israel a few years ago. And now they use it as a gag, to silence anyone expressing anti-Israeli views during the period around the 27th January each year.

 

[LiamC]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

By all means, remember the victims of the Holocaust. But not using Israel's invention, designed purely to further their genocide of the Palestinians by making criticism of their brutal regime 'off-limits' for a whole week each year.

We have a day to celebrate, quite frankly, a deluded, psychologically disturbed mans birthday in December so I think a week to remember 9-11 million people being systematically wiped from the face of the Earth is light.

Remember the Holocaust doesn't include just the Jewish but Roma Gypsies, Poles and other Slavs, political dissidents and dissenting clergy, persons with physical or mental disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and Homosexuals not to mention thousands of others the Nazi regime considered "undesirable"

I am, however, on your side regarding Israel's ongoing subjugation of Palestine. I just don't agree that we shouldn't be remembering victims on Holocaust day.

I can understand if you were talking about the biblical God, but Jesus...? I wouldn't call him a "deluded, psychologically disturbed man"...

Let me just make it clear: of course I'm not against remembering the victims of the Holocaust, or even having an international day of remembrance. I'm against this international day of remembrance, which was entirely thought up and designed by Israel a few years ago. And now they use it as a gag, to silence anyone expressing anti-Israeli views during the period around the 27th January each year.

The 27th of January is the date Auschwitz was liberated by the Red Army. I'm sorry, I'm not really getting your point here.

Why is it so important Israel gag people around this date specifically?

 

[Meat Pie]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

I absolutely understand and agree about Israel's tyranny over Palestine and I think it's disgusting how they try to label their critics as anti-semites. It degrades the awfulness of anti-Semitism and paints anyone who disagrees with Israel's murderous, imperial foreign policy as a racist, which is unacceptable.

I do however question your assertion that Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam. I wouldn't be surprised if it was, but I think I need a bit of evidence that this event specifically, is being used inappropriately?

 

[Martin]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

I really can't see some Zionist conspiracy to silence people for a week being the driving reason behind this over remembering how six million of their race were brutally exterminated in cold blood.

 

[Harv]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

Quite frankly I feel sick. I do not care for the politics behind all this; the topic title is a statement; a loud, obnoxious and ultimately offensive statement. You are labelling the day of mourning for millions a 'sham' and yet provide little evidence for why this is so. Instead of venting your frustration at not being allowed to hijack a sensitive topic, it may be a wiser idea to reconsider your misleading and inconcise wording. I for one am shocked that such a display of insensitivity has come from such a respected poster.

 

[Sam]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

I am NOT trying to disrespect the holocaust, or people memorialising the holocaust. What I am trying to do is make a point that Israel has cynically conjured up this specific 'Holocaust Memorial Day' and used it for political purposes. Here are two undeniable facts:

1. Israel was behind the creation of 'International Holocaust Remembrance Day' in 2008. Source: Israeli president Benjamin Netanyahu who said it was created "at the initiative of the Israeli government and then Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom".

2. Israel has used the day for political purposes. Israeli ministers and officials have brought huge pressure on the Sunday Times for printing a cartoon by Gerald Scarfe about the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians - nothing to do with the holocaust - on the 27th.

These are undeniable facts, backed up by sources. Now, the 'my opinion' part. My opinion is that Israel and Zionists more widely are abusing the memory of the holocaust to silence opposition to the genocide that Israel is committing in Palestine - an abuse of such horror that it will one day rank alongside the holocaust as one of humanity's darkest moments.

 

[BarryZola]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

....an abuse of such horror that it will one day rank alongside the holocaust as one of humanity's darkest moments.

I doubt that to be honest. The scale and method of the two situations are far removed.

 

[Poisson]

Re: Holocaust Memorial Day is a scam

I believe you do not aim to insult (if I believe you did, I would be going mad) but I strongly urge that this topic be renamed to something like ''Israel hijacks memorial day for own gains'' as it will not appear to be as offensive as the title appears at the moment.

 

[Harv]

Re: Israel hijacks memorial day for own gains

I strongly believe that this is a better choice of title. Meanwhile, I'm still not entirely sure what this thread is trying to say; could somebody simplify the politics of the situation for my simple brain cells, please?

 

[MaXtreme]

Re: Israel hijacks memorial day for own gains

Sam. I can tell you are not an anti-Semite, and I am not trying to start a heated argument, but I can tell you that through my Jewish education from school, family lectures, tours around Israel and talks from Israelis..that your statements are flawed.

Whilst I do not agree with everything Israel does (the use of phosphorous in Gaza in the 2009 operation was completely unacceptable and is a war crime - but America and Britain have committed worse crimes in wars), at the end of the day it is a country and it has a right to exist just like the UK, US etc..

If the Palestinian leadership really wanted peace they would have had their country years ago.


The fact is, you do not seem to understand that the Palestinians were terrorising Israel and they continue to do so (Hamas in Gaza), which is why there is a security fence (only 5 percent of it is a wall - it came into existence after Palestinian snipers and rocket attacks) between the West Bank and Israel. Everything Israel does is in retaliation to terror attacks, although their responses can seem over the top in comparison to a couple of rockets being fired onto Israeli schools, hospitals, homes etc...

And if Israel were really committing genocide, why is it that they save Palestinian lives? http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164920#.URFAIZOLK5I


To end I am going to say something quite controversial....the state of Palestine never existed, it was a British mandate http://www.icsresources.org/content/factsheets/BritishMandateForPalestine.pdf.

I suggest you watch this video and gain some true understanding into the origins of the conflict, rather than continue to be misguided by the lies from the Palestinian leadership, who teach their children to hate Jews and terrorise Israelis.
Origins of Israel Palestinian Conflict

 

[Sam]

For some reason, the topic title has been changed without my consultation or notification. Since this is my topic, I have changed it back to what it was, with a minor amendment.

At the suggestion of Poison Tom 96 and NastyPasty, I have changed the topic title to make it clearer that I am specifically talking about the 'International Holocaust Memorial Day' invented by Israel, rather than general remembrance of the Holocaust or any other Holocaust memorial day.

 

[MaXtreme]

The Holocaust is the single worst genocide to ever occur, are you saying it does not deserve an entire day for remembrance?

People need to be educated about what happened in order to prevent such a horrific genocide from happening again!

I get the picture that you are just using memorial day to attack Israel, it does not matter what country decided to establish a day to remember the single worse genocide that ever occurred.

 

[Sam]

The Holocaust is the single worst genocide to ever occur, are you saying it does not deserve an entire day for remembrance?

As I've made CLEAR in my previous posts, I'm not saying that AT ALL. I'm saying that this SPECIFIC day, invented by Israel a decade ago, is used by that country as a political weapon against critics of their on-going genocide in Palestine. I'm NOT saying that there shouldn't be a Holocaust memorial day. Quite the opposite. I think it's a disgrace to victims of the Holocaust that Israel are using this day to score political points over critics of their atrocities in Palestine (which have nothing to do with the Holocaust). The memory of an appalling episode of human history is being abused to further another appalling episode in human history.

Classic right-wing Israeli internet mob, construct a straw-man argument and then argue against that instead. :

 

[MaXtreme]

Time to put this to bed


I recommend you have a read through this article, it discusses the so-called 'atrocities' Israel are supposed to be committing on a 'daily basis'.
http://beyondthecusp.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/israeli-genocide-of-the-palestinians-myth-or-fact/.

 

[Sam]

Why do you think

that putting random points in bold makes them any more valid, even though you're simply reposting a load of Zionist claptrap that excuses the atrocities that the state of Israel has repeatedly committed against the Palestinians over the last half century?

 

[Funky_Monk]

The Holocaust is the single worst genocide to ever occur, are you saying it does not deserve an entire day for remembrance?

This is silly - In all of Sam's posts he clearly states that this is not the case.

 

[Rupert]

This is quite bizarre. MaXtreme - the pieces you link to are so far removed from being impartial that they amount to being Israeli propaganda. A key part of every debate is not just presenting an opinion backed up by sources; not just assuming the sources you cite are factually correct, or even doing any research into their credibility or attempts to verify the material they've written; but to also acknowledge the credibility of sources on the other side of the debate.

One of your citations was "IsraelNationalNews.com" (already sounding nice and impartial) describing how a single Palestinian child was 'saved' by an Israeli Defence (defence?!) Force medical team. Mysteriously it doesn't mention how this Palestinian child was injured in the first place, it just tells us his "life was in danger due to the worsening of his condition." OK then. But the problem is, the single source for that article is the Israeli Defence Force themselves! Who, like any military aggressor (just putting it out there that they may be such a thing) are keen to spread news stories (let's call it propaganda) describing how great and humanitarian their soldiers are.

Perhaps they are, but I was somewhat baffled when you followed this argument up with a post attempting to disprove the "'atrocities' Israel are supposed to be committing on a 'daily basis'". I presume you cited the Beyond the Cusp blog to back-up your point (or make it for you), but it has only served to do the opposite. It describes how the friendly Israeli Defence Force (who 'saved' the life of a single Palestinian child) systematically killed hundreds of Palestinian children in an operation known as Cast Lead. I particularly liked the way they cited the well-known and respected organisation promoting human rights and calling out those who attack them, Amnesty International. The blog even provided a link to the PDF report on the Israeli operation, or as they put it; "22 Days of Death and Destruction". Amnesty International state that as a result of the attack, which came without warning, "some 1,400 Palestinians had been killed, including some 300 children and hundreds of other unarmed civilians".

Hundreds of civilians were killed in attacks carried out using high-precision weapons – airdelivered bombs and missiles, and tank shells. Others, including women and children, were shot at short range when posing no threat to the lives of the Israeli soldiers. Aerial bombardments launched from Israeli F-16 combat aircraft targeted and destroyed civilian homes without warning, killing and injuring scores of their inhabitants, often while they slept. Children playing on the roofs of their homes or in the street and other civilians going about their daily business, as well as medical staff attending the wounded were killed in broad daylight by Hellfire and other highly accurate missiles launched from helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), or drones, and by precision projectiles fired from tanks.

Disturbing questions remain unanswered as to why such high-precision weapons, whose operators can see even small details of their targets and which can accurately strike even fast moving vehicles, killed so many children and other civilians.

It's a very damning and comprehensive report, which also gives 158 verifiable citations including from the United Nations. It describes how Israeli Defence Forces systematically hindered medical care for the wounded, blocking the passage of Palestinian Red Crescent (like the Red Cross) ambulances and forcing the medical teams to evacuate the civilians, including "four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses...too weak to stand up on their own", on donkey carts instead. The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) reported: "Over the last 24 hours, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) has not received Israeli approval for any of its coordination requests to reach those killed or injured. Nonetheless they have recovered 140 wounded and 22 dead.”

Certainly a different picture than that painted by the article describing how the heroes of the IDF saved a single Palestinian child's life, neglecting to mention how he had been injured in the first place.

Perhaps most tragic though is that the blog post you cited as an authority on this issue tells of the hundreds of civilian murders: "there was not an overt out of proportional loss of civilian Palestinian life during Cast Lead." Which I think speaks for itself - both in terms of the repugnancy of the source you quote but also of the actions of the Israeli army: their indiscriminate targeting of civilians and their deliberate obstruction of medical services for the injured.

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My intention, MaXtreme, is not to destroy your argument that Israel is an innocent force for good in the region (though I may have accidentally done that) or attack you personally in any way, but to challenge your one-sided opinion that seems to have close to no impartiality or criticism of the sources you cite. Yet you admit that your 'knowledge' comes from your "Jewish education from school, family lectures, tours around Israel and talks from Israelis." Again, none of these sound in the slightest bit impartial.

Perhaps one of the most striking things you said to Sam though was this:

I suggest you gain some true understanding into the origins of the conflict, rather than continue to be misguided by the lies from the Palestinian leadership, who teach their children to hate Jews and terrorise Israelis.

But what if we were to turn that on its head? What if you needed greater understanding of the conflict? What if:

I suggest you gain some true understanding into the origins of the conflict, rather than continue to be misguided by the lies from the Israeli leadership, who teach their children to hate Palestinians and terrorise Palestinians.

The holocaust should be remembered as the horrific genocide of an entire people, but it should also be used as a reminder that such a thing should never be allowed to happen again. Whether this refers to the mass murder of a million people or, for example, 300 innocent children caught in a political crossfire, it doesn't matter. The Israeli justification of its repeated indiscriminate military attacks against civilian targets in no way reflects the dis-proportionality of both its retaliatory measures and pre-emptive strikes against supposed Palestinian military targets.

Adam raises the good point of how the West's portrayal of Israel is not impartial or fair - it is effectively propaganda disguising the mass atrocities committed by the Israeli armed forces. But it goes much higher than the mass media - the pro-Israeli lobby in the US has a reach far beyond. To quote Noam Chomsky (source), when Barack Obama was a senator running for President, on his website "he highlighted the fact that, during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006, he co-sponsored a Senate resolution demanding that the United States do nothing to impede Israel's military actions until they had achieved their objectives, and censuring Iran and Syria because they were supporting resistance to Israel's destruction of southern Lebanon, incidentally, for the fifth time in 25 years."

The representation of Israel is a fiction promoted by governments (particularly those of Israel and the US) that masks the consistent violations of human rights carried out by this so-called democratic peaceful state. Whilst I wouldn't have given this topic the name it has, and probably wouldn't even relate it to the Holocaust Memorial Day - it's still worthy of having our attention.

And just for the sake of balance - I am well aware that Hamas is also responsible for the killings of innocent Israeli civilians too. The above was in no way a defence of Hamas' actions in Gaza, particularly with regards to their indiscriminate rocket launching towards Israel. However, the disproportionate response of Israel, and their continued illegal settling of the West Bank, is doing far more to derail and hope of peace the region ever had.