TheMan
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This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks. - Thread starter Altonadvocate1
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Is Alton Towers a world class theme park?
Danny
TS Contributor
You could toss the theme park aside and the remainder would still be world class. You could easily spend a day or two soaking up the atmosphere and exploring the hotels, which I genuinely felt enticed to do (as proven by a 1am photography session with @Alastair). You just don't get that feeling anywhere else.
I think merlin lack the ambition, the competition and therefore the need to do anything with the park. They are perfectly happy attracting 2 or so million and running the park like a cash cow.
With just a little ambition and obviously money they could easily become a world class park, and attract many more guests. We live in the country with the highest population density in Europe, it's located centrally, around 20 to 25 million people live within 2 hours of the park (the midlands plus manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and so on) nearly everyone can get to it in 3 to 4 hours.
Let's hope merlin get a kick soon in the form of much needed quality competition!
With just a little ambition and obviously money they could easily become a world class park, and attract many more guests. We live in the country with the highest population density in Europe, it's located centrally, around 20 to 25 million people live within 2 hours of the park (the midlands plus manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and so on) nearly everyone can get to it in 3 to 4 hours.
Let's hope merlin get a kick soon in the form of much needed quality competition!
TheMan
TS Member
I was going to ask if @Altonadvocate1 would permit me asking another question on this thread relating to this discussion.
Does anyone think that Merlin is now big enough and well resourced enough to now challenge the quality of the likes of Universal for single installation attractions?
Obviously Alton couldn't build WWHP, and arguably it has something naturally more aesthetically beautiful anyway, but could we feasibly expect that they could invest that kind of money, or even less given the scope, but more than previous to create a truly world class attraction.
The Smiler hardware is very very good, technical issues aside, but if they'd spent another few million on it, it could have been absolutely world class as an over all attraction - is it reasonable to now expect that they could, and arguably should given their professed "second only to Disney" mantra, increase their quality and investment in these kinds of attractions?
Does anyone think that Merlin is now big enough and well resourced enough to now challenge the quality of the likes of Universal for single installation attractions?
Obviously Alton couldn't build WWHP, and arguably it has something naturally more aesthetically beautiful anyway, but could we feasibly expect that they could invest that kind of money, or even less given the scope, but more than previous to create a truly world class attraction.
The Smiler hardware is very very good, technical issues aside, but if they'd spent another few million on it, it could have been absolutely world class as an over all attraction - is it reasonable to now expect that they could, and arguably should given their professed "second only to Disney" mantra, increase their quality and investment in these kinds of attractions?
Altonadvocate1
TS Member
No problem at all, I believe that forum discussions lead where they lead. (Anyway, I'm the Newby here
I don't think Alton will ever be able to install individual attractions that can compete with the aforementioned companies in terms of cost. The gate figures would not justify it and the infrastructure required to improve access to raise the great figures would never be approved.
I do believe that Alton could have attractions every bit as good without the sky high price tag if they utilise or are allowed to utilise the very substantial geographic advantages that Alton possesses (eg: the valley) in a creative way, that does not ruin these very attributes (an incredibly difficult thing to do... Wardley, are you there?).
Perhaps the threat of PP will encourage the councl to loosen the planning restrictions.
But is there a man alive who could create a world beating coaster with minimal height and numerous planning restrictions... mmm rhetorical question!
I don't think Alton will ever be able to install individual attractions that can compete with the aforementioned companies in terms of cost. The gate figures would not justify it and the infrastructure required to improve access to raise the great figures would never be approved.
I do believe that Alton could have attractions every bit as good without the sky high price tag if they utilise or are allowed to utilise the very substantial geographic advantages that Alton possesses (eg: the valley) in a creative way, that does not ruin these very attributes (an incredibly difficult thing to do... Wardley, are you there?).
Perhaps the threat of PP will encourage the councl to loosen the planning restrictions.
But is there a man alive who could create a world beating coaster with minimal height and numerous planning restrictions... mmm rhetorical question!
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Scott
Former TS Team Member
I'm late to the party it seems...
Alton Towers is a world class theme park - though is not good enough to compete at the most elite level. There's a difference there. Its hardware would be enviable to almost any park in the world and that alone places it in the world class bracket. The things mentioned in this thread though stop it being the next step (the elite parks in my mind).
As for TheMan's new question? No.
Merlin may have finances but they simply don't have the balls or investing power to put an attraction on the scale or budget of anything that Universal or Disney currently do. There would be no way that amount of money would be invested for a non-immediate return.
EDIT: that doesn't mean to say I don't think that we will see larger investments. Thorpes 2016 project has shown that investments will get bigger and it will be an important milestone in showing what Merlin can do with a full dark ride. I just don't think it's feasible to think they'll ever reach the dizzy heights that Disney/Universal have set.
Alton Towers is a world class theme park - though is not good enough to compete at the most elite level. There's a difference there. Its hardware would be enviable to almost any park in the world and that alone places it in the world class bracket. The things mentioned in this thread though stop it being the next step (the elite parks in my mind).
As for TheMan's new question? No.
Merlin may have finances but they simply don't have the balls or investing power to put an attraction on the scale or budget of anything that Universal or Disney currently do. There would be no way that amount of money would be invested for a non-immediate return.
EDIT: that doesn't mean to say I don't think that we will see larger investments. Thorpes 2016 project has shown that investments will get bigger and it will be an important milestone in showing what Merlin can do with a full dark ride. I just don't think it's feasible to think they'll ever reach the dizzy heights that Disney/Universal have set.
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Altonadvocate1
TS Member
By the way that new Hansa coaster by Gerst sure looks interesting...
TheMan
TS Member
It sure does! It's got my attention that's for sure!
DiogoJ42
TS Member
TheMan
TS Member
Errr... yeah we do.
Things you don't hear on TST:
"We went to America for the scenery".
"I always visit central Gothenburg. What? It has rides?"
You still haven't answered my question TheMan, what piece hardware at DLP would you swop for a SW?
It's all well and good comparing AT to these "magical" so called world class parks but DLP has been trading on its name for years now, take away that mouse and the "have a nice day" attitude and what you end up with is a load of aircraft hangers, overpriced basic hotels, extortionate food and crap rides.
Is that world class?
P.s. I've no idea whether AT is world class or not and quite frankly I don't care.
To me it's my local place where I can go to chill out in the gardens and ruins, swim in an oasis or have the pants scared off me on one of the best combinations of coaster hardware anywhere in the world.
It's all well and good comparing AT to these "magical" so called world class parks but DLP has been trading on its name for years now, take away that mouse and the "have a nice day" attitude and what you end up with is a load of aircraft hangers, overpriced basic hotels, extortionate food and crap rides.
Is that world class?
P.s. I've no idea whether AT is world class or not and quite frankly I don't care.
To me it's my local place where I can go to chill out in the gardens and ruins, swim in an oasis or have the pants scared off me on one of the best combinations of coaster hardware anywhere in the world.
Rob
TS Team
Wow, just when you think the forum is dying a slow death over the closed season you get four pages of discussion in under 24 hours! Brilliant!
Simple answer, yes, Alton Towers is categorically a world class theme park and we are lucky to have it in the UK. We really do take it for granted at times.
I agree largely with the points made by Dan and Sam earlier in the topic. The ride hardware itself is brilliant. Towers has one of the best ride line-ups in Europe. You've got three B&Ms, two Intamin coasters, a Mack, the largest Gerstlauer at this present moment and a Maurer Söhne. That's pretty damn good.
The park itself is in a stunning location. The geography and landscaping of the park is wonderful. You have the Towers and the Gardens, two things that no other theme park in the world has or could ever try and replicate. Of course this is all because of the great history the park has but history counts for a lot.
Towers has many flaws, many of which are born out of Merlin's shodding way of operating theme parks. It needs more TLC than it is ever likely to get. Theming is not up to scratch. Food is going downhill. There is a lot that is wrong.
However very rarely do you find examples of 'perfect' theme parks. For me Europa Park is the perfect theme park as it does have everything. But a park does not need to be perfect to be world class. Most parks have flaws, whether it be in the hardware they have, the theming (or lack of it), the operations, the investment etc. Six Flags Great Adventure for me is categoricially a world class park due to the rides it has, but it does not come close to even Towers in certain respects.
My final point, Alton Towers does have a reputation around the world, especially in the USA. Enthusiasts around the world do travel to the UK to visit Alton Towers. Towers has enough to be considered world class but I think we would all agree that it could and should be so much better.
Simple answer, yes, Alton Towers is categorically a world class theme park and we are lucky to have it in the UK. We really do take it for granted at times.
I agree largely with the points made by Dan and Sam earlier in the topic. The ride hardware itself is brilliant. Towers has one of the best ride line-ups in Europe. You've got three B&Ms, two Intamin coasters, a Mack, the largest Gerstlauer at this present moment and a Maurer Söhne. That's pretty damn good.
The park itself is in a stunning location. The geography and landscaping of the park is wonderful. You have the Towers and the Gardens, two things that no other theme park in the world has or could ever try and replicate. Of course this is all because of the great history the park has but history counts for a lot.
Towers has many flaws, many of which are born out of Merlin's shodding way of operating theme parks. It needs more TLC than it is ever likely to get. Theming is not up to scratch. Food is going downhill. There is a lot that is wrong.
However very rarely do you find examples of 'perfect' theme parks. For me Europa Park is the perfect theme park as it does have everything. But a park does not need to be perfect to be world class. Most parks have flaws, whether it be in the hardware they have, the theming (or lack of it), the operations, the investment etc. Six Flags Great Adventure for me is categoricially a world class park due to the rides it has, but it does not come close to even Towers in certain respects.
My final point, Alton Towers does have a reputation around the world, especially in the USA. Enthusiasts around the world do travel to the UK to visit Alton Towers. Towers has enough to be considered world class but I think we would all agree that it could and should be so much better.
Benzin
TS Member
Things at DLP that I'd have at Towers:
Because in reality, does anything at Europa come close to Nemesis or Oblivion ride wise? Not really, but why is Europa so well loved/adored/obsessed over? Because of the atmosphere and guest experience it provides in combination with some top tier rides...
Towers, for all the atmosphere that remains in some areas like Nemesis and the Towers themselves, lacks a lot of it elsewhere, like Towers Street should be one of the best park entrances in the world, but because of up-selling, run-down look it displaces that view (as does Spinball, but that's not Merlin's fault)... Dark Forest as well is a prime example of a terrible ride area...
The problem with this discussion, is that everyone takes the term 'world class' as something different... Some people might say Cedar Point or Six Flags Magic Mountain are world class parks, but I wouldn't, because I don't think ride hardware alone is enough to make a park world class if the operations, atmosphere or guest experience is generally poor...
Now a park I would compare Towers to (rather than Disney) is Efteling, as they both have a rather similar location of natural beauty... Although Efteling is flat, it is full of woodland and as a result used that as part of the park's charm and atmosphere, it feels very magical wandering around and sometimes just discovering things... Indeed, the Fairytale Forest is a great example of this, as it's a great waste of 2 hours just meandering, taking in the sights and interactive animatronics within the deep woodland... Whilst the rides themselves aren't considered 'top tier', Joris is still great fun, and the dark rides there I would put up at the top table with Disney...
So because of Efteling's atmosphere and overall experience in addition to ride hardware that suits the park (i.e. fun and themed) I would see that as my personal level to what is world class, in the same way I term Europa and Phantasialand as such...
The term itself should really be reserved for a handful of places that do every aspect of a theme park right... Currently, Towers does not belong in that category, but there's no reason to say that it could get into that level given a decent amount of change...
Because in reality, does anything at Europa come close to Nemesis or Oblivion ride wise? Not really, but why is Europa so well loved/adored/obsessed over? Because of the atmosphere and guest experience it provides in combination with some top tier rides...
Towers, for all the atmosphere that remains in some areas like Nemesis and the Towers themselves, lacks a lot of it elsewhere, like Towers Street should be one of the best park entrances in the world, but because of up-selling, run-down look it displaces that view (as does Spinball, but that's not Merlin's fault)... Dark Forest as well is a prime example of a terrible ride area...
The problem with this discussion, is that everyone takes the term 'world class' as something different... Some people might say Cedar Point or Six Flags Magic Mountain are world class parks, but I wouldn't, because I don't think ride hardware alone is enough to make a park world class if the operations, atmosphere or guest experience is generally poor...
Now a park I would compare Towers to (rather than Disney) is Efteling, as they both have a rather similar location of natural beauty... Although Efteling is flat, it is full of woodland and as a result used that as part of the park's charm and atmosphere, it feels very magical wandering around and sometimes just discovering things... Indeed, the Fairytale Forest is a great example of this, as it's a great waste of 2 hours just meandering, taking in the sights and interactive animatronics within the deep woodland... Whilst the rides themselves aren't considered 'top tier', Joris is still great fun, and the dark rides there I would put up at the top table with Disney...
So because of Efteling's atmosphere and overall experience in addition to ride hardware that suits the park (i.e. fun and themed) I would see that as my personal level to what is world class, in the same way I term Europa and Phantasialand as such...
The term itself should really be reserved for a handful of places that do every aspect of a theme park right... Currently, Towers does not belong in that category, but there's no reason to say that it could get into that level given a decent amount of change...
Dave
TS Founding Member
very few parks that are world class include the best examples of their ride kind in the world. I don't think a single EP coaster is the best of its kind in the world, Woodan is up there (Bluefire however was a prototype and still one of my personal favourites) the fact Towers even have 2 is amazing. But that was never the argument, the point that you have seemed to not want to latch onto, and therefore wander around creating an argument that was never their in anyone's post is they have a world class spread of ride hardware and when you visit lots of parks you realise that this is not a given.
I refer you once again to Sams post
And the reasons they are not TOP CLASS is because they over charge, don't theme, neglect rides, have naff events ect.
And to be honest I am saying no more on this matter as it is hijacking this topic, and there are no more ways I can make this any clearer. and anyway Benzin has hit the nail on the head.
Benzin
TS Member
Oh, another thing I'd take from DLP is their opening times...
First weekend of the year, the main park is open 9:30 till 22:00 (Studios 10-21), plus Magic Hours at 8:00 at BOTH parks... Those sort of hours are pretty constant throughout the year anyways, but it's a ridiculous standard to have...
First weekend of the year, the main park is open 9:30 till 22:00 (Studios 10-21), plus Magic Hours at 8:00 at BOTH parks... Those sort of hours are pretty constant throughout the year anyways, but it's a ridiculous standard to have...
Most views are that the hardware at Alton is brilliant, some of the best rides around. Buts it not just about the rides, guest experience, food and so on are just as important than rides in many ways.
I also find it interesting how and why the words ride hardware is used. I think the rides don't offer much of a experience bar the ride itself. Probably the only ride that gives you the all round experience and that immersive experience is Hex.
I also find it interesting how and why the words ride hardware is used. I think the rides don't offer much of a experience bar the ride itself. Probably the only ride that gives you the all round experience and that immersive experience is Hex.
Altonadvocate1
TS Member
Going back to the The Man's point about if we could have more expensive single installations.
If we got as an example that epic cross valley coaster would it be a secret weapon or would it being part of a series take some of that epicness away?
Could it be The Ultimate weapon or to get enthusiasts going JWUW?
If Morwenna were still around, I could just imagine the press release, so in typical over the top style...
TOP GUN HERO PASSES OUT ON ALTON TOWERS NEW COASTER.
"Alton Towers yesterday announced the world's first G Suit coaster, after decorated top gun combat pilot Dick Steel passed out during testing. Marketing Director Morwenna Angove said "with Dicks help we have built the first rollercoaster with G suit technology so that thrill seakers can experience forces beyond the usual limits of the human body without passing out"
"During a routine excavation of Merlins archives the plans were discovered. They were dismissed at the time as being impossible due to the scale not to mention the financial and technological challenges involved. Now a new generation of engineers using cutting technology and with an unprecedented investment are in a position to unveil the equivalent of a lost Da VincI painting, Einstein formula or the Ark of the Covenent"
JWUW
Or am I giving them ideas? Lol
If we got as an example that epic cross valley coaster would it be a secret weapon or would it being part of a series take some of that epicness away?
Could it be The Ultimate weapon or to get enthusiasts going JWUW?
If Morwenna were still around, I could just imagine the press release, so in typical over the top style...
TOP GUN HERO PASSES OUT ON ALTON TOWERS NEW COASTER.
"Alton Towers yesterday announced the world's first G Suit coaster, after decorated top gun combat pilot Dick Steel passed out during testing. Marketing Director Morwenna Angove said "with Dicks help we have built the first rollercoaster with G suit technology so that thrill seakers can experience forces beyond the usual limits of the human body without passing out"
"During a routine excavation of Merlins archives the plans were discovered. They were dismissed at the time as being impossible due to the scale not to mention the financial and technological challenges involved. Now a new generation of engineers using cutting technology and with an unprecedented investment are in a position to unveil the equivalent of a lost Da VincI painting, Einstein formula or the Ark of the Covenent"
JWUW
Or am I giving them ideas? Lol
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Danny
TS Contributor
I wouldn't swap any of the SW hardware for anything from Disney at least. If you were to open negotiations surrounding the non SWs then I'd consider the notion, but it's the detail and atmosphere that make Disney special, not so much the rides. If you were to strip Disney of that and apply it to Towers, one would rapidly decline into a beyond saving failure, whilst the other would be basking in a glory that deep down, it does deserve.
jon81uk
TS Member
So many posts in such a short space of time! Lots of people with good things to say, but I'm not going got quote everything I want to respond to.
A lot of people "blame" Merlin for cost-cutting but I don't see any major difference between the was the park was run 2000-2007 (pre-Merlin) and 2007-2014 (post-Merlin), many of the Tussaud's executives stayed on with Merlin and I think overall operations haven't significantly changed in the last 10 years.
Upselling occurs in all theme parks that I've been in, I just don't think British staff are very good at it. For example PicSolve could get the photographers to take a well framed picture at the bottom of TowersStreet with the Towers in the background (same as Disney Photopass photogs), but instead PicSolve take cramped pictures at the turnstyle! Disney push you to buy the photos in advance rather than upsell in the park is the other big difference.
I think Alton Towers is the best theme park in the UK and among the best in the world. It is certainly better than Six Flags Magic Mountain in terms of being a theme park, but SFMM may have some better hardware.
Can't really compare to Disney as they are very different places, Disney don't really do thrill rides in the same way and Disney is now very much about characters and meet and greats. If you think people on here talk about cost-cutting then visit a Disney forum (disboards or WDWmagic are two I read) and there are some very vocal people about the way Disney run their American parks. We also all know that Disney Paris isn't world-class at the moment as it is falling apart, but hopefully they will get it fixed up for their 25th in 2017.
The next two years should be very interesting for Merlin too, with the new Shrek/DreamWorks attraction opening in County Hall London and the new dark ride at Thorpe. I think given the set piece theming at Madame Tussauds, The Dungeons & Sea Life, they can do something good for Shrek. But we will need to wait and see what happens with the Thorpe ride and as to whether Merlin Magic Making can do a themed dark ride.
A lot of people "blame" Merlin for cost-cutting but I don't see any major difference between the was the park was run 2000-2007 (pre-Merlin) and 2007-2014 (post-Merlin), many of the Tussaud's executives stayed on with Merlin and I think overall operations haven't significantly changed in the last 10 years.
Upselling occurs in all theme parks that I've been in, I just don't think British staff are very good at it. For example PicSolve could get the photographers to take a well framed picture at the bottom of TowersStreet with the Towers in the background (same as Disney Photopass photogs), but instead PicSolve take cramped pictures at the turnstyle! Disney push you to buy the photos in advance rather than upsell in the park is the other big difference.
I think Alton Towers is the best theme park in the UK and among the best in the world. It is certainly better than Six Flags Magic Mountain in terms of being a theme park, but SFMM may have some better hardware.
Can't really compare to Disney as they are very different places, Disney don't really do thrill rides in the same way and Disney is now very much about characters and meet and greats. If you think people on here talk about cost-cutting then visit a Disney forum (disboards or WDWmagic are two I read) and there are some very vocal people about the way Disney run their American parks. We also all know that Disney Paris isn't world-class at the moment as it is falling apart, but hopefully they will get it fixed up for their 25th in 2017.
The next two years should be very interesting for Merlin too, with the new Shrek/DreamWorks attraction opening in County Hall London and the new dark ride at Thorpe. I think given the set piece theming at Madame Tussauds, The Dungeons & Sea Life, they can do something good for Shrek. But we will need to wait and see what happens with the Thorpe ride and as to whether Merlin Magic Making can do a themed dark ride.