Israel/Palestine

[rob666]

You were debating British influence on global conflict so the British empires policy of partition in the 20th century leading to or encouraging conflict is relevant.

Try again

That said I agree religion is the toxic motivator for conflict in the area. We just helped grease the rails.

The problem was, the grease was neither halal nor kosher.
I'm an old git, there has been conflict in the area throughout my life.
In my student days, I thought I understood the background and conflict(s), and I have followed the happenings in the area, in the big papers, for decades.
But I understand it all less and less.
This latest war was started by the weaker side military wise, with no warning, and they knew they were going to take a battering in retaliation.

 

[Benzin]

The world would definitely be a safer place if Hitler had won the war.

This is certainly a take. Especially given how such a statement could be perceived.

Also yay Godwin's Law.


Reason why no UK (or other Western governments) want to get involved too much is down to how any response would be perceived in the so called "good vs evil" sides this conflict brings up. Just have to see how Corbyn's view on the matter was deemed by the media here.

Only people who lose here are the innocents. The justification from both sides with no real intent to ever stop (or take steps to compromise, because neither side want to) this. Thus the cycle forever continues.

 

[Jb85]

I thought I knew a lot about this conflict but eveytime something sparks, I read more and realise as a westerner I have no idea....

Hopefully this doesnt escalate to a full blown war involving other nations.... Iran, being one.

 

[Tom]

This is certainly a take. Especially given how such a statement could be perceived.

Also yay Godwin's Law.


Reason why no UK (or other Western governments) want to get involved too much is down to how any response would be perceived in the so called "good vs evil" sides this conflict brings up. Just have to see how Corbyn's view on the matter was deemed by the media here.

Only people who lose here are the innocents. The justification from both sides with no real intent to ever stop (or take steps to compromise, because neither side want to) this. Thus the cycle forever continues.

America is heavily involved, primarily supporting the Israeli government.

 

[Ash]

You were debating British influence on global conflict so the British empires policy of partition in the 20th century leading to or encouraging conflict is relevant.

Try again

That said I agree religion is the toxic motivator for conflict in the area. We just helped grease the rails.

If you want to infer things that’s clearly your prerogative. But as the exclusive arbiter or my own thoughts, I’m telling you you’re wrong.

But both of those examples prove my point, major conflict existed in the Middle East long prior to British/French interference in the early 20th century.

This was also the case in Ireland with the arrival of the Romans, Vikings and later Anglo Normans. Which led to conflict, or was that all the fault of the British as well? (Certainly the latter) It was also the case in India, although they like pretend otherwise.

No disputing we’ve played our part, but the idea Britain was the exclusive creator, cause of conflict in these areas, is for the birds.

Point is, we forget we’re just a spec on an otherwise cluttered time, history is long. And it shows us, where’s there’s faith. There’s conflict. Regardless of who or what is involved.

 

[Tom]

Since I triggered that line of debate, I said 'large' - not necessarily majority of blame/cause. The end of the British mandate - and crucially the turning a blind eye ever since - has allowed Zionism to fill the vacuum.

Lots of violence was going on between 1920 and 1947, but the collapse of the defined mandate allowed Zionism to become entrenched and perpetuate into the stratosphere - significantly assisted in proxy by the United States.

 

[GaryH]

Russia won’t get directly involved and I don’t think Iran will either. They may however contribute to the situation indirectly by sharing intelligence, or in the case of Iran, drones. I don’t think Russia has the weapons left to supply them with anything (mind you NATO is also running short by all accounts).

So we have the war in Ukraine, this situation in Israel, and also a possible situation developing in Kosovo again with Nato troops once again being sent in to try and keep the peace.

NATO beefs up presence in Kosovo with UK troops as tensions rise

Under the new arrangement, British soldiers are being placed under NATO's command "if needed, to address the current situation". They will form part of the KFOR peacekeeping force, which consists of about 4,500 troops from about 27 NATO and partner countries.

news.sky.com

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Russia, Iran, China are all behind this.

Edit: forgot to add Azerbaijan/Armenia into the tinder pot.

 

[BigT]

You could almost draw a line down the world right now starting at the western border of Russia down to the Red Sea and you have a real east v west scenario opening up, all we need now is for China to attack Taiwan and basically the world will be at war.

This is all very convenient to Putin so it wouldn’t surprise me if he has his sticky fingers all over it even if not directly involved, it helps to just whip up the anti NATO feeling in the east.

The west has again been shown to be relatively weak with the invasion of Ukraine, yes we have given them some mainly old tin pit weapons that were fit for the scrap bin but otherwise done very little, is it any wonder then Iran and China are starting to think about chancing their arm also?

Dangerous times for sure, if only Hitler had won the war. I’m sure there was a thread about that before…..

 

[Benzin]

Even our old tin pot weapons seemed to be better than Russia's ones.

It's a shame that anything being stated as a negative view of Israel's actions is immediately deemed as antisemitic and adds nothing to solving the problem. Seeing the English FA being moaned at for their "on the fence" statement is a great example of this, plus the positions of no pro-Palestine protests from many governments.

From the sounds of it Israel were warned about the initial Hamas attack. One can only assume they did nothing so they could justify their response with most of the western world being seemingly afraid to be against them. Pretty much allowing them free reign to kill a number of innocents.

But everything must be black or white these days. If you're saying Israel's response (and actions over many years) is bad, then you're seemingly pro-Hamas. When you can think both sides are in the wrong and killing numerous innocents is getting nowhere.

Given what happened during WW2, you'd think there'd be slightly more realisation from the Israelis to see them repeating actions of the past. But given their whole "why didn't the people of Palestine rise up if they knew Hamas were bad?" response leads me to believe nothing will change and many will die.

 

[rob666]

This is the very first I have heard, after a week, that Israel knew in advance that the attacks were coming.
Do we have any sources for this rumour?
In situations such as this, assuming often makes an ass out of u and me.
After a thousand years of battling away in the name of god, on at least three sides, this conflict will go on, if civilisation lasts, for another thousand years.
Edit...just read up, Egypt gave warning, Israel didn't realise the strength of the prospective attack...if we can believe any of it during war...the first casualty of war is truth.

 

[BarryZola]

How are you going to get the Wembley Arch lit up in Israeli colours when you've already killed around 2000 (mostly civilian) Palestinians in a few days? It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious and ridiculous.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

You could almost draw a line down the world right now starting at the western border of Russia down to the Red Sea and you have a real east v west scenario opening up, all we need now is for China to attack Taiwan and basically the world will be at war.

This is all very convenient to Putin so it wouldn’t surprise me if he has his sticky fingers all over it even if not directly involved, it helps to just whip up the anti NATO feeling in the east.

The west has again been shown to be relatively weak with the invasion of Ukraine, yes we have given them some mainly old tin pit weapons that were fit for the scrap bin but otherwise done very little, is it any wonder then Iran and China are starting to think about chancing their arm also?

Dangerous times for sure, if only Hitler had won the war. I’m sure there was a thread about that before…..

Going to douse this right away. Russia has reportedly drawn up a UN security council ceasefire motion for the Israel/Gaza conflict, for humanitarian purposes. Reported by Reuters - https://www.reuters.com/world/russi...-resolution-israel-hamas-conflict-2023-10-13/

There are many, many issues with Russia and global politics, but it's wrong to suggest that Putin had involvement in this. The last thing Russia wants is an even more unstable middle east. Putin is dangerous, but turning him into a pantomime villain, or suggesting that he's behind everything wrong in the world isn't helpful.

 

[Tom]

As a minimum, it is in his interests to have an additional major conflict to deflect attention/resource from the invasion of Ukraine.

 

[GaryH]

Course Putin had something to do with this. The more instability he can cause the better. Its draws the worlds eyes away from Ukraine and causes the west more headache with trying to spread its military and weapons across other regions. The world is in a very dangerous place right now. BigT is right, all we need is China to invade Taiwan right now which it could quite easily given the west is low on weaponary.

 

[rob666]

The world has always been a dangerous place.
There have been close to a hundred wars going on since the new millennium, this war is just the latest war in an area that has seen about thirty different regime rulers battling the area over the last thousand years...and involves petrol prices and stock markets.
There is little chance after all this time that the cake will be sliced up nicely, there is no answer, just occasional flares and the deaths of innocents.

 

[BarryZola]

There's 'intel' that Iran are planning to bomb Israel in the next couple of days in retaliation for Israel apparently striking the Iranian consulate in Syria a couple of weeks back, killing some senior Iranian military leaders in the process. Hopefully if this happens Israel will be left to fend for themselves as they don't deserve any help from anyone after their behaviour in the past several months.

Joe Biden expects Iran to attack Israel 'sooner than later'

Israel says it is ready to defend itself against retaliation for an attack on an Iranian consulate in Syria.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Shaggy_Dog_]

Hopefully if this happens Israel will be left to fend for themselves as they don't deserve any help from anyone after their behaviour in the past several months.

Joe Biden expects Iran to attack Israel 'sooner than later'

Israel says it is ready to defend itself against retaliation for an attack on an Iranian consulate in Syria.

www.bbc.co.uk

Don’t know about you but I’d kind of rather it didn’t happen. I really don’t want to see another country start bombing and killing civilians in this whole damn mess.

 

[BarryZola]

Yeah, I didn't say I wanted it to happen, just that no-one else gets involved IF it happens.

 

[Plastic Person]

Unfortunately, Biden is going to piss away any legacy by dragging us all towards his imminent grave in honour of whatever persuasively fantastic meal he had in Tel Aviv sometime in the 1970s.

Even outside their genocidal actions in Gaza, Israel bombing the Iranian embassy was madness. The only equivalent precedent for that was NATO destroying a Chinese consulate in the nineties, which was such a scandal that the US paid to have it rebuilt and Bill Clinton was forced to publicly apologise on the international stage.

Iran don't have the will or the firepower to engage in a regional war, so whatever they do will, I expect/hope, be moderate. But we are in terrifying times.

 

[GaryH]

I’ve lost any respect I had for Isreal the way they have gone about this. To see all these innocent people starving to death is horrendous. Let’s bear in mind here Isreal has never abided by any UN resolution, has occupied areas of Palestine outside the agreed borders and basically gives a two fingers salute to anyone who criticises them.

Yes the kidnappings and attack by hamas was terrible, but I feel ashamed being in a country which on one hand sends the weapons then on the other hand tries to make itself feel better by sending in aid.

We also have the US doing its usual of promoting support to a country such as Ukraine then slacking off half way through. I don’t trust the Americans as an ally.

Basically the world is totally screwed up. People can mock me if they want but I fear only a global conflict will now reset things. I hope I’m wrong but the US isn’t the super power anymore. It’s China.