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Jimmy Carr's Tax Arrangements
- Thread starter Adam
- Start date
I don't think you're thick but I think you're missing my point here.
I was using slavery as an example to make this point - Just because something is legal, does not mean that makes that action justifiable.
I hope you would agree that slave owners of the past, although completely legal, should be considered directly responsible and contemptible for keeping slaves, yes? Much like that slavery example, the tax evasion is 'legal' however it is still morally wrong. Jimmy Carr and all tax evaders are responsible for their behavior and that is why they deserve their names dragged through the mud.
And I'm not jealous, I'm angry. I'm angry that anyone in society should decide not to pay their fair share. I am not enviousness of the tax payer's stolen money that Jimmy Carr kept hidden. I don't want to avoid paying my fair share of tax but I do want everyone to pay their fair share.
You talk about not paying more money then you 'have to' but here's the thing BigT, Jimmy Carr hasn't even paid that, let alone paying more. My Mum has to work seven days a week on two minimum wage jobs and she pays more tax then Jimmy Carr, the multi-million pound comedian.
How on earth can you defend a selfish git who would steal money away from the taxpayer for his own pocket? Just because it's legal stealing doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.
I was using slavery as an example to make this point - Just because something is legal, does not mean that makes that action justifiable.
I hope you would agree that slave owners of the past, although completely legal, should be considered directly responsible and contemptible for keeping slaves, yes? Much like that slavery example, the tax evasion is 'legal' however it is still morally wrong. Jimmy Carr and all tax evaders are responsible for their behavior and that is why they deserve their names dragged through the mud.
And I'm not jealous, I'm angry. I'm angry that anyone in society should decide not to pay their fair share. I am not enviousness of the tax payer's stolen money that Jimmy Carr kept hidden. I don't want to avoid paying my fair share of tax but I do want everyone to pay their fair share.
You talk about not paying more money then you 'have to' but here's the thing BigT, Jimmy Carr hasn't even paid that, let alone paying more. My Mum has to work seven days a week on two minimum wage jobs and she pays more tax then Jimmy Carr, the multi-million pound comedian.
How on earth can you defend a selfish git who would steal money away from the taxpayer for his own pocket? Just because it's legal stealing doesn't make it acceptable behaviour.
pluk
TS Member
I think you are overestimating what Jimmy Carr and pretty much everyone else who is normal understands about tax.
You fill in the boxes, you send it off to a clever suit (be that the actual taxman or an intermediary in the form of a financial advisor/accountant), they tell you what to pay. If someone tells you you are paying too much tax you'd be an absolute moron not to pay the lesser amount they are telling you you should pay. If you think at that point you have got too much money you give some to charity of your choice, not the wasteful government.
There are crooks involved; the financial advisers designing whatever these schemes are and the government themselves who could close these loopholes overnight if they wanted to. You have to assume the government are either entirely incompetent or deliberately keeping some loopholes open for the benefit if their mates.
Benefit cheats, on the other hand, are knowingly making a positive action to defraud the state. I know which is worse.
You fill in the boxes, you send it off to a clever suit (be that the actual taxman or an intermediary in the form of a financial advisor/accountant), they tell you what to pay. If someone tells you you are paying too much tax you'd be an absolute moron not to pay the lesser amount they are telling you you should pay. If you think at that point you have got too much money you give some to charity of your choice, not the wasteful government.
There are crooks involved; the financial advisers designing whatever these schemes are and the government themselves who could close these loopholes overnight if they wanted to. You have to assume the government are either entirely incompetent or deliberately keeping some loopholes open for the benefit if their mates.
Benefit cheats, on the other hand, are knowingly making a positive action to defraud the state. I know which is worse.
Pluk - I think you would have to be, in your words, "an absolute moron" to be paying 1% tax and not realise that you are involved in some sordid tax scam. No-one is that stupid.
I also don't understand what is in it for the financial advisers to mislead their clients? The only possible reason would be that the advisers who save their clients money through tax avoidance are more desirable and hirable. In which case the client who has hired one of these dodgy practitioners knows that they are avoiding tax and are therefore accountable for the actions taken in their name.
As for that, I completely agree with you. The government want to play on both sides of the pitch by allowing these loopholes to remain open to get the support of big business but then at the same time publicly condemn these actions to garner the public's support. The tax loopholes and havens need to be closed. They are morally indefensible and yet most of the time, the government supports them.
I also don't understand what is in it for the financial advisers to mislead their clients? The only possible reason would be that the advisers who save their clients money through tax avoidance are more desirable and hirable. In which case the client who has hired one of these dodgy practitioners knows that they are avoiding tax and are therefore accountable for the actions taken in their name.
As for that, I completely agree with you. The government want to play on both sides of the pitch by allowing these loopholes to remain open to get the support of big business but then at the same time publicly condemn these actions to garner the public's support. The tax loopholes and havens need to be closed. They are morally indefensible and yet most of the time, the government supports them.
I think your right meat pie, first thing Monday I'm going to ask my Accountant to redo my tax bill so I pay more as I don't think I've paid enough ;D
As Pluk says financial advisors make a good living by understanding a very complex tax system so as to allow there clients to avoid paying to much tax.
It is not just fat cats or celebrities that use them almost every self employed person does as well and that's a lot of tax dodgers.
Any accountant that doesn't know the loopholes or ways to reduce tax bills would not be in business very long.
As Pluk says financial advisors make a good living by understanding a very complex tax system so as to allow there clients to avoid paying to much tax.
It is not just fat cats or celebrities that use them almost every self employed person does as well and that's a lot of tax dodgers.
Any accountant that doesn't know the loopholes or ways to reduce tax bills would not be in business very long.
Tom - Oh I don't specifically care about Jimmy Carr. I despise all tax-dodgers however this has been a high profile case which has come to light and people of high public stature need to be made an example of.
BigT - Sorry, wait one second... What you just said there does not in any way make tax dodging morally justifiable.
All you have done is expand on the level of deceit that the system currently allows. What you are essentially doing is letting 'almost every self employed person' pick your pocket and you are happily patting them on the back, giving them a thumbs up and saying "good on ya". That money they have kept hidden isn't rightfully theirs and they are no more reputable then a common thief.
The only reason financial advisers are abusing the tax system is because it is what clients expect of them. The clients are responsible for what happens in their names, and yes if you are not paying the right amount of tax in relation to your income BigT, please do go tell your accountant to pay more. If you didn't take that course of action, I'm sorry to say that the only conclusion I would be able come to is that you are no worse then thief. A thief stealing from everyone in society.
BigT - Sorry, wait one second... What you just said there does not in any way make tax dodging morally justifiable.
All you have done is expand on the level of deceit that the system currently allows. What you are essentially doing is letting 'almost every self employed person' pick your pocket and you are happily patting them on the back, giving them a thumbs up and saying "good on ya". That money they have kept hidden isn't rightfully theirs and they are no more reputable then a common thief.
The only reason financial advisers are abusing the tax system is because it is what clients expect of them. The clients are responsible for what happens in their names, and yes if you are not paying the right amount of tax in relation to your income BigT, please do go tell your accountant to pay more. If you didn't take that course of action, I'm sorry to say that the only conclusion I would be able come to is that you are no worse then thief. A thief stealing from everyone in society.
Meat Pie said:
This is my point about it being a complicated tax system, because you obviously don't understand it.
There are different tax systems and you can't compare them all to PAYE because just because someone is paying less tax than they would under PAYE does not make them a thief.
If you turn your argument around and say that if someone pays more tax than they have to then they are being robbed by the government, would this be acceptable either! And this is why people use financial advisors to ensure this doesn't happen.
I think we will agree however that it should be a top priority of this government to have a look at this and try and even out some of the tax thresholds.
Until then people are going to ensure that they pay the correct amount to them, even if it's not as much as you would like, and as hard as it is to swallow Jimmy Carr has legally paid the correct amount no matter how unscrupulous he has been.
pluk
TS Member
Meat Pie said:
That would absolutely be the case for the average person like me who gets a wage slip every month and can see what is coming and going, I can tell roughly what I am losing to the taxman. But people like Carr have a vast amount of different retinue streams flowing in and out from all sorts of directions as he works for all sorts of different people, and probably gets paid for many different things within different time frames and is due all sorts of rebates on costs of production incurred. That's why he needs an accountant and I don't. None of us will know, but I bet the likes of Carr could not tell you what they actually earn for each thing they do, they just see the money in the account and are happy. It's the same reason articles appear occasionally where an accountant has stolen millions from their clients over a number of years and no one has noticed, they very fact a person needs financial advise means what is going on is beyond them.
A enlightening view of a self-employed person, retweeted by one of my twitter followers.
http://t.co/oB9fHw02
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
http://t.co/oB9fHw02
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
BigT - Whatever you're talking about with different systems of tax, it is completely irrelevant. Mr Carr used the K2 tax avoidence scheme which works as follows:
That, isn't an alternative system of tax to PAYE, that is just blatant tax avoidance. That is worming your way out of paying the right amount of tax in relation to earnings, meanwhile doctors are going on strike to save their pensions!
You keep saying its ok to just pay the tax that 'you have to'. So I can only deduce that your view is that it is perfectly acceptable to rape the system of as much tax as you can as long as it is within the law. What kind of society is that? Look after yourself and don't give a damn about everyone else? We all have personal responsibility to pay our fair share, and if you use dishonest means to avoid paying that, yes the Government are to blame for allowing it to happen but you are also personally responsible for deciding to take the actions that you did.
And I dispute your claim that Mr Carr. has paid the 'right amount'. It depends on how we define 'the right amount'. In my mind, that would be the sum which would correspond to his earnings if it wasn't for the actions he decided to take. What he has done is legal, but immoral and as punishment he should be widely condemned by every tax abiding citizen.
However, I am relieved to read that we can at least agree that the Government should get involved to sort out these issues.
Pluk - I find that far too convenient and unbelievable that anyone could not notice the tiny percentage of money from their entire income is going to the taxman, whether it be coming from hundreds or even thousands of sources. Maybe an accountant's clients don't know all the in's and out's of what is going on, but they must know that what they are doing is effectively tax evasion, otherwise everyone, including Joe Bloggs the dustbin man would be doing it. Anyone using the schemes like K2 would have to be idiots not realise that it is shady as anyone with any life experience what so ever would be aware enough to understand what is happening in their name or they ought to be anyway.
- UK earners 'quit' their job.
- They then sign new employment contracts with offshore companies.
- The offshore companies 'rehire' their new employee to the UK but take their earnings.
- The offshore company pays the employee a much lower salary each month, but 'loans' them several thousand pounds.
- These loans can be written down as tax liabilities, thus substantially reducing tax payable to the Government.
That, isn't an alternative system of tax to PAYE, that is just blatant tax avoidance. That is worming your way out of paying the right amount of tax in relation to earnings, meanwhile doctors are going on strike to save their pensions!
You keep saying its ok to just pay the tax that 'you have to'. So I can only deduce that your view is that it is perfectly acceptable to rape the system of as much tax as you can as long as it is within the law. What kind of society is that? Look after yourself and don't give a damn about everyone else? We all have personal responsibility to pay our fair share, and if you use dishonest means to avoid paying that, yes the Government are to blame for allowing it to happen but you are also personally responsible for deciding to take the actions that you did.
And I dispute your claim that Mr Carr. has paid the 'right amount'. It depends on how we define 'the right amount'. In my mind, that would be the sum which would correspond to his earnings if it wasn't for the actions he decided to take. What he has done is legal, but immoral and as punishment he should be widely condemned by every tax abiding citizen.
However, I am relieved to read that we can at least agree that the Government should get involved to sort out these issues.
Pluk - I find that far too convenient and unbelievable that anyone could not notice the tiny percentage of money from their entire income is going to the taxman, whether it be coming from hundreds or even thousands of sources. Maybe an accountant's clients don't know all the in's and out's of what is going on, but they must know that what they are doing is effectively tax evasion, otherwise everyone, including Joe Bloggs the dustbin man would be doing it. Anyone using the schemes like K2 would have to be idiots not realise that it is shady as anyone with any life experience what so ever would be aware enough to understand what is happening in their name or they ought to be anyway.
Islander
TS Member
Just caught up with it today, and have to disagree with you - he wasn't relaxed at all, you could see it from his body language, but he was taking everything thrown at him and bloody good on him for that.Stelios said:
He was a moron doing what he did, but he seems to realise that, and is now taking all the flak coming his way - many wouldn't.
I've seen him live a few times, and his 'calmness' seems to be his nature when he's being insulted. People rip into him at every gig he does, for various reasons, I've seen one Man insult Jimmy's whole family to his face.
He doesn't snap back, he just uses his wit to defend himself.
He doesn't snap back, he just uses his wit to defend himself.
Ok as I said I went to see him last night and he took a lot of heckling but was his usual sharp witted self. He seemed genuinely sorry but I still don't think he has anything to be sorry for, he took advice and proberbly didn't understand it himself to be honest.
He did come back with one point though, what the muck is Cameron on about when he takes a break from the G8 summit to take a dig at him when all his mates are doing the same thing.
Jimmy is genuinely funny live and I recommend him to everyone but don't go if easily offended because he doesn't hold back.
He did come back with one point though, what the muck is Cameron on about when he takes a break from the G8 summit to take a dig at him when all his mates are doing the same thing.
Jimmy is genuinely funny live and I recommend him to everyone but don't go if easily offended because he doesn't hold back.
There was a discussion about this on five live this morning, basically the government are looking a bringing in a system whereby a gross under payment of tax can be investigated and if found excessive then it will be reclaimed.
I'm not sure of the exact details as I only heard the last ten minutes, but as I understood it, it would be the taxman not the courts implementing it.
I'm not sure of the exact details as I only heard the last ten minutes, but as I understood it, it would be the taxman not the courts implementing it.