Lightwater Valley

[Skyscraper]

It is now an under twelves park, whole different market, and doing better overall by the sound of things than Mingo.
It cost a fortune to keep running, a real cost millstone round the parks neck, and the grounds through the second half will now be a complete jungle.
Dead, in my humble opinion.

Yeah with it being the only thrill ride left at the park I can't see it staying much longer unfortunately. I would hope they'll reopen it one last time for a farewell event but I doubt that would be feasible given how long it's been SBNO for.

 

[yoursilentface]

I'll just clarify after a bit of research to say that whilst it isn't The Ultimate, it does appear to be themed to the area it's located to an extent. The trailer on the website shows that this is an Immotion VR coaster, which was put in a few years ago at Blackpool Tower (don't think it's there anymore as there's no longer a mention of it on the website):

It's still in there and open....you walk past it when you've been up to the top of the tower...when you've been in the gift shop i think

 

[Matt N]

The thing with reopening Ultimate is that it would likely need hefty refurbishment after 2 years (?) of sitting SBNO. For me, this raises a couple of red flags.

For starters, I’m not sure if LWV has the funds for such a hefty refurbishment (Brighton Pier Group might do, admittedly), and even if they do, I’m not sure it would make a lot of sense to carry out such a project with their new target audience of the under-10s. None of the target audience will be interested in the ride, and it would cost a lot more money than something brand new targeted towards the park’s target demographic likely would. As much as we would love it, I’m not sure it makes sense to do it from the park’s current perspective.

Also, I’m sceptical as to whether any potential revamp would bring the ride back in the form that many would want it bought back in. As the ride was built 30 years ago, and built 30 years ago by a defunct manufacturer with no existing manufacturers providing support for its rides at that, any refurbishment could change the ride pretty drastically, and could quite possibly bring modernisation and smoothed out profiling in order to make the ride more palatable to a 2021 audience.

However, the thing with Ultimate is that I think that because of the kind of coaster it is, a modernisation of this nature would, to an extent, kill what many of the ride’s fans seem to love about it. From what I can tell, the sheer brutality of the thing is what many people most revere in it, and any modernisation would likely remove the brutality aspect. Admittedly, this might make the ride still be fun and loved, while opening it up to a wider audience, but if the brutality is what many love about it, then I feel like most people would complain and say “they’ve killed The Ultimate” or something along those lines.

Of course, I’m not suggesting that reopening the ride while maintaining what people love about it is impossible by any means, as I’m sure it could be done, but I’m just suggesting that the possibility of it being “modernised” prior to any potential reopening would be quite high, and as I said above, it’s also a case of whether the park is financially sound enough to reopen the ride, or whether they feel like The Ultimate is viable to operate and worth reopening; they’re now a park for the under-10s, remember!

So my point is; I’m unsure whether reopening The Ultimate would even be especially viable for the park in its new direction, as much as we enthusiasts would love it. Besides, if the ride were to be nerfed through some form of modernisation, and everything people love about it were to be removed, wouldn’t you Ultimate fans surely prefer to look back on The Ultimate as it was previously in a fond light as opposed to have to live through years more of it operating in a supposedly sub-par form?

 

[Craig]

Yup, the reason The Ultimate is so liked is because of how terrible it actually is. Absolutely zero banking in the right places and heavy cumbersome trains. Smooth that out and the ride becomes bland, slower and won't even make it back to the station.

Even if it was shortened, you're still looking at masses of structural work to the track and new trains, not to mention a whole new setup in the station. That might have been worth it when the park had more thrill rides, but now there's very little else for that market to go on, why bother? I'm almost certain we won't see the ride back now, the comments from the owners about wanting to bring it back was nothing more than lip service to stop the kick off when it remained closed. Unless they're willing to substantially invest in restoring some kind of thrill line up on top of the massive costs of The Ultimate, then I just can't see it happening.

 

[Matt N]

Yup, the reason The Ultimate is so liked is because of how terrible it actually is. Absolutely zero banking in the right places and heavy cumbersome trains. Smooth that out and the ride becomes bland, slower and won't even make it back to the station.

Would I be right in saying that Ultimate’s almost seen as a “so bad it’s good” kind of coaster?

 

[Craig]

Would I be right in saying that Ultimate’s almost seen as a “so bad it’s good” kind of coaster?

Pretty much. It's an absolutely terribly built ride with an awful layout and hideous trains. If it weren't for being so ridiculously brutal to ride, I doubt we'd bat an eyelid at it closing.

 

[JAperson]

To be honest I surprised the ultimate lasted as long as it did. I whish I had been able to ride it but from POV's it looks like it struggled to make it round most of its track and even needed pulling along sometimes. The ride doesn't fit the target market of the park and they would be better off buying something new and cheap for the families. Something like a well themed gerstlaur bobsled should do the trick. How much are they anyway?

 

[Benjsh]

Riding it was almost like a badge of honour. I rode it 3 times within an hour on my last visit (probably last ever visit too) and came off contemplating my life choices. Hahahaha.

It's a hideous ride. But it's long and brutally rough so people go mad for it. That's us Brits for you. So crap we love it.

 

[Rojo]

Rode it multiple times on Saturday, missed my first Rugby match in a few years on the Sunday due to it doing a number on my knees. Regret nothing!

It will be a shame to see it go but LWV will let it Knightmare. At least I'll never have to gaze at it from afar every time I go north

 

[JAperson]

Reading all these comments about The Ultimate really makes me wish I had rode it.

What do you all think would be an ideal investment for Lightwater Valley. Something that captures there new audience isn't too expensive and can be marketed well?

Personally, the only option I could come up with is something like a Gerstlaur bobsled (mentioned in an earlier post). I really couldn't think of anything else that would pull people in without being expensive however I am sure there are other options.

 

[rob666]

Rode it a week after opening, and most years after.
Rode it the day after a bad bicycle crash, sprained wrist, mashed up face, twisted knee.
The pain of riding t'Ultimate was far worse than the bike crash, screaming in agony all through the wooded serpent of the second half.
Still have the ride photo, black eye and all.
One of the funniest coasters I have ever suffered.
And now they make you queue two hours for the Ladybird.

 

[Maelstrom]

Reading all these comments about The Ultimate really makes me wish I had rode it.

What do you all think would be an ideal investment for Lightwater Valley. Something that captures there new audience isn't too expensive and can be marketed well?

Personally, the only option I could come up with is something like a Gerstlaur bobsled (mentioned in an earlier post). I really couldn't think of anything else that would pull people in without being expensive however I am sure there are other options.

Even a Gerstlaur Bob would be to expensive for Lightwater. The most we are likley to see in the near future of any kind of new coaster would be some kind of second hand coaster or ex travelling coaster, and even then something like a mouse coaster. Anything new would likely be SBF visa or that level of manufacture.

 

[Craig]

There'll be one of two things that'll happen at LWV:

a) It shuts
b) They continue with the cheap kids rides/experiences to suit the much younger audiences

As Maelstrom said, it's impossible for them to be able to afford anything else of note. The days of thrill/family thrill at that park are long gone sadly

 

[JAperson]

Even a Gerstlaur Bob would be to expensive for Lightwater. The most we are likley to see in the near future of any kind of new coaster would be some kind of second hand coaster or ex travelling coaster, and even then something like a mouse coaster. Anything new would likely be SBF visa or that level of manufacture.

Yeah I suppose you are right but do we know how much financial backing Brighton Pier Group actually has? They seem to be owned by Ecelectic Bar Group which doesn't give me great hope.

 

[Craig]

Yeah I suppose you are right but do we know how much financial backing Brighton Pier Group actually has? They seem to be owned by Ecelectic Bar Group which doesn't give me great hope.

The Eclectic Bar Group was the former name of Brighton Pier Group, Eclectic is now the bars division within the group. I guess there's some money there, else they wouldn't have bought LWV.

However, having a quick peek at their latest accounts showed the bar division had their September '21 covenants waived, so although they may have cash coming in, they've had to restructure debt to be paid at a later date. Not exactly a rarity in the leisure industry under the current situation mind. I doubt there's sufficient money in the group to pay for a massive investment at LWV, so they would have to rely on more borrowing. The issue with this is a leisure attraction seemingly sold as a going concern that had been going massively downhill for a significant period of time likely isn't going to be seen as the most secure investment for lenders at present. Add in the ongoing uncertainty with the pandemic and the fact that the group haven't run a full scale theme park before, and I'm not sure they'll easily secure funding, certainly not on the scale required.

My guess would be they intended to buy the place, ride out the pandemic with these temporary attractions and then revisit possible plans once things have calmed down. The problem is the slating it's getting at the moment will cause a short term reduction of guests thanks to word of mouth, and a reluctance for people to return next year too. Unlike the likes of Flamingoland or Towers, they have no alternative stream of income at LWV. It's literally just ticket revenue and F+B spend on park. Other "resort" parks have accommodation, waterparks and conference/event revenue to rely on too. My personal view is it might be too little too late for the place, but I really hope I'm wrong!

 

[Plastic Person]

I just want to buck the trend in here and declare that I always thought that the second half of The Ultimate was genuinely good.

 

[JAperson]

The Eclectic Bar Group was the former name of Brighton Pier Group, Eclectic is now the bars division within the group. I guess there's some money there, else they wouldn't have bought LWV.

However, having a quick peek at their latest accounts showed the bar division had their September '21 covenants waived, so although they may have cash coming in, they've had to restructure debt to be paid at a later date. Not exactly a rarity in the leisure industry under the current situation mind. I doubt there's sufficient money in the group to pay for a massive investment at LWV, so they would have to rely on more borrowing. The issue with this is a leisure attraction seemingly sold as a going concern that had been going massively downhill for a significant period of time likely isn't going to be seen as the most secure investment for lenders at present. Add in the ongoing uncertainty with the pandemic and the fact that the group haven't run a full scale theme park before, and I'm not sure they'll easily secure funding, certainly not on the scale required.

My guess would be they intended to buy the place, ride out the pandemic with these temporary attractions and then revisit possible plans once things have calmed down. The problem is the slating it's getting at the moment will cause a short term reduction of guests thanks to word of mouth, and a reluctance for people to return next year too. Unlike the likes of Flamingoland or Towers, they have no alternative stream of income at LWV. It's literally just ticket revenue and F+B spend on park. Other "resort" parks have accommodation, waterparks and conference/event revenue to rely on too. My personal view is it might be too little too late for the place, but I really hope I'm wrong!

Yes I should have looked at company house (or whatever they have called it now) and I am surprised to find that they are a public company and they are in a lot of debt. I think your right @Craig I don't see them having the cash for anything substantial which explains the VR coaster. They need another revenue stream from LWV to make it profitable. The thing is I am really not sure whether LWV can survive without a new investment to draw people in. Its not really the time for theme parks in yorkshire is it?
If you are right about there plan of riding out the pandemic and then re looking at it I think they'll be waiting a while until any investment would be worth what is was before anyway.

 

[Craig]

Yes I should have looked at company house (or whatever they have called it now) and I am surprised to find that they are a public company and they are in a lot of debt. I think your right @Craig I don't see them having the cash for anything substantial which explains the VR coaster. They need another revenue stream from LWV to make it profitable. The thing is I am really not sure whether LWV can survive without a new investment to draw people in. Its not really the time for theme parks in yorkshire is it?
If you are right about there plan of riding out the pandemic and then re looking at it I think they'll be waiting a while until any investment would be worth what is was before anyway.

The crazy thing is that with the vast majority of people holidaying in the UK at the moment, there was a prime opportunity to really go all out to attract visitors to a northern theme park in 2021. Sadly, the uncertainty meant nothing was really put in place for this year, and the recruitment issues in the leisure industry only exasperated things. That's why we've seen the temporary stuff like the VR coaster and a few fair rides chucked in last minute instead.

The old owners had the right idea with the holiday village years ago, but the planning issues put that on the back burner. I think they could get something like that built, the only problem is that I don't think it would be at any sort of scale that would bring in a decent amount of revenue.

It just seems like there's been such a large amount of things cut at the place in the past decade or so that it's not really possible to remotely restore things back to the same level. Your guests notice, they don't bother visiting and the place seems to be pretty much in a bit of a death spiral now.

That said, we've been saying long before this forum was even a thing that "20xx will probably be LWV's last season" and it's still here albeit in a very different form to the park we used to know. Who knows, maybe they'll dig themselves out? This feels very different previous years though with Covid chucked on top though.

 

[Fuct]

The old owners had the right idea with the holiday village years ago, but the planning issues put that on the back burner. I think they could get something like that built, the only problem is that I don't think it would be at any sort of scale that would bring in a decent amount of revenue.

If they did go ahead and build a holiday village I'm not sure how they'd market it. "Come stay at Lightwater Valley, home of the best temporary fairground in Yorkshire"?

Edit: Also, given how long the planning application and construction would take, they'd be long gone by the time they got around to it.

 

[Craig]

If they did go ahead and build a holiday village I'm not sure how they'd market it. "Come stay at Lightwater Valley, home of the best temporary fairground in Yorkshire"?

Oh without a doubt some investment would need to come with it, but there's plenty of holiday parks that don't have a lot in the way of facilities and manage just fine. In the wider area Ripon is only a short drive away, and the park is right on the doorstep of the Yorkshire Dales. Treetop Trails, Jurassic Golf and having the pub in the wood showed they were on their way to developing activities outside of the park itself before the place started falling backwards again.