New Drivers

[delta79]

I have seen drivers bully P Plate displaying cars.
I think adding human factors to the training and theory test.

My first solo drive was the A5 in Shropshire

 

[John]

My driving instructor took me onto a 2 lane dual carriageway on my 3rd lesson, though I didn't have to merge into traffic as the "slip road" was the start of the road (which has since been extended so that junction is now a normal entry slip). My point being, even before motorway driving was allowed, it was entirely possible to practice driving under near motorway conditions given a suitable stretch of A road. Many such roads allow you to gain experience with controlling a car at high speed, merging and lane changes/overtaking without the need for specific motorway experience. If anything, motorways are probably easier as junctions are usually more spread out and better signed.

As previously mentioned, a driving test is only as difficult as the local conditions at the time of the test. Depending on when and where you take it you could be faced with busy roads and complex junctions or just be asked to drive around deserted roads for a bit and hardly have to think. Passing a test just demonstrates that you weren't dangerous during the brief time the examiner was with you, and the system allows people to fail a theoretically unlimited number of times. If you want drivers to genuinely prove competence then you'd need a major rethink of how licencing works.

 

[WillPS]

The drivers I have most issues with on the motorway are those who lane hog and those who cut everyone up (often trying to get around lane hogs).

Of course I don't know when the drivers passed their tests but judging by age alone I've yet to see a driver in either category who I would describe as young - it's normally people who passed their test decades ago and think they know what to do.

Young drivers know that you must stick to the left unless overtaking because that is something they will have practiced (unless there's a test centre somewhere remote from any dual lane running; rare I presume?). They won't have experience of driving the car while trying to deal with friends dicking about.

I would be against an outright ban on carrying passengers but a 1 15+ passenger limit seems very sensible to me.

 

[NuttySquirrel]

I think it depends where you live. Learning to drive in west Bristol we didn't really have any roads like that, all the urban dual carriageways are 40/50mph speed limits and feel more like urban roads. Anything faster would have had motorway status (M32, M48 etc.). For the benefit of @Matt N, I can't think of any 70mph dual carriageways anywhere near the Forest of Dean either.

I found it helpful to do Pass Plus a few weeks after passing my test because I got some proper tuition from a qualified instructor on how to drive properly on actual motorways. That was far more enlightening than a few short 50mph stretches between roundabouts on the Bristol ring road.

 

[Matt N]

For the benefit of @Matt N, I can't think of any 70mph dual carriageways anywhere near the Forest of Dean either.

I did my dual carriageway learning along the A40 near Monmouth, along the stretch between Raglan to the west and Goodrich to the east. Admittedly, parts of that were 50mph (mainly the bits around Monmouth itself), but there were big bits of 70mph too.

 

[Matt.GC]

I think it depends where you live. Learning to drive in west Bristol we didn't really have any roads like that, all the urban dual carriageways are 40/50mph speed limits and feel more like urban roads. Anything faster would have had motorway status (M32, M48 etc.). For the benefit of @Matt N, I can't think of any 70mph dual carriageways anywhere near the Forest of Dean either.

I found it helpful to do Pass Plus a few weeks after passing my test because I got some proper tuition from a qualified instructor on how to drive properly on actual motorways. That was far more enlightening than a few short 50mph stretches between roundabouts on the Bristol ring road.

I did my first test in Kingswood and failed. The only thing close to anything resembling a motorway is indeed the A4174, a road so pathetic that it keeps slamming into roundabouts every few hundred yards. On lessons I used to drive back and forth between Yate and Keynsham, and sometimes as a learner you'd get the odd opportunity to overtake a lorry or a slow driver in the inside lane. But no long stretches, and no grade separated junctions or slip roads. Overtaking opportunities were rare so it was pretty much accelerate, slow down for a roundabout, negotiate roundabout, rinse and repeat.

I actually passed in Southmead. The route from Yate was often via Stoke Gifford, which did involve a grade separated junction and slip road lane merge at Patchway onto the A38 Filton bypass which can get a bit hairy at times. But it's a 40 and 30mph limit dual carriageway, so hardly anything like a motorway or high standard A Road.

I concur, there's 5 motorways in the area to choose from, but as a result I can't think of a single road that no classed as one that's anything like driving on one?

 

[NuttySquirrel]

I did my dual carriageway learning along the A40 near Monmouth, along the stretch between Raglan to the west and Goodrich to the east. Admittedly, parts of that were 50mph (mainly the bits around Monmouth itself), but there were big bits of 70mph too.

Thanks @Matt N , you're right that there's a bit of dual carriageway there, I was in fact driven along that stretch the other day in a Jaguar F-Type. But it seems to have been blanket-covered with 50mph signs now

I won't confirm whether the driver of said F-Type actually obeyed the speed limit or not

 

[John_P]

I did pass+ after I passed my test so a number of extra lessons that included motorway driving.

First one I went from South Liverpool over to Runcorn (via the old bridge) as I volunteered over there a lot at the time.

Other ones including over to by Manchester, the Trafford centre, and even into Manchester Airport and out.
Was actually really useful.

 

[BigShadowtinytree]

Motorway lessons before new drivers can go on a motorway should be mandatory. Joining the motorway and judging speeds I found difficult to begin with.

What’s the view on new drivers displaying P Plates - again I think this would help.

Where did everybody drive to on their first solo trip after passing their tests?

Personally, I think P plates do nothing but make new drivers stick out like a sore thumb unnecessarily. It can cause them to be bullied by other drivers who have preconceived notions that a newly passed driver will be slow/incompetent and seeing that green P will automatically raise their heckles. Imo it’s better for new drivers to blend in as much as possible. I never used them myself for this reason.

After I passed my test I went for a drive around my local area, first time driving completely on my own without an instructor/parent. Not very exciting but helped me get past that hurdle of ‘driving unattended’ for the first time.

I’m of the opinion that putting further restrictions on new drivers isn’t the answer, if we want driving standards in new drivers to improve then improve the way it is taught. Im not an expert on learning to drive so I don’t know exactly how they could do that, but there must be avenues to explore on that front. Maybe that’s too simple minded of me. I just feel like this will result in new drivers taking the risk anyway and hoping not to get caught.

 

[Matt N]

Thanks @Matt N , you're right that there's a bit of dual carriageway there, I was in fact driven along that stretch the other day in a Jaguar F-Type. But it seems to have been blanket-covered with 50mph signs now

I won't confirm whether the driver of said F-Type actually obeyed the speed limit or not

That sounds very much like the M48 at the moment, which is similarly covered in 50mph signs, ostensibly due to defective barriers.

I’m the only one who actually seems to stick to 50mph along there, though… if I drive at bang on 50mph, everyone overtakes me! I quite literally get a convoy of folks zooming past me in the right hand lane if I’m doing 50mph along there, and many of them are going considerably faster than 50mph!

 

[Poisson]

I ended up in a job doing thousands of miles a week not long after passing. That soon sorts you out.

 

[Alix]

Not quite what we’re all talking about however, having just driven abroad for the first time since passing my UK test a very long time ago, I would recommend to anyone taking the plunge before they’ve been driving too long.

As soon as you’re able to (insurance and finance wise) I highly recommend people get on an international trip and drive on the “wrong” side of the road. Otherwise you’ll possibly be like me, too scared to go for too many years and miss out on adventures.

The first 30 minutes was TERRIFYING. Ended up going round Schipol perimeter for a while as we took a wrong turn. But after that it wasn't so bad. Doing it again tomorrow. Eeep.

 

[Matt.GC]

Not quite what we’re all talking about however, having just driven abroad for the first time since passing my UK test a very long time ago, I would recommend to anyone taking the plunge before they’ve been driving too long.

As soon as you’re able to (insurance and finance wise) I highly recommend people get on an international trip and drive on the “wrong” side of the road. Otherwise you’ll possibly be like me, too scared to go for too many years and miss out on adventures.

The first 30 minutes was TERRIFYING. Ended up going round Schipol perimeter for a while as we took a wrong turn. But after that it wasn't so bad. Doing it again tomorrow. Eeep.

Yeah, I did that at Schiphol too! That first hour is terrifying on the wrong side of the road. Stressful until you reach the safety of a motorway, which is pretty much just going forward and overtaking like it is here. But after that you get really used to it.

That sounds very much like the M48 at the moment, which is similarly covered in 50mph signs, ostensibly due to defective barriers.

I’m the only one who actually seems to stick to 50mph along there, though… if I drive at bang on 50mph, everyone overtakes me! I quite literally get a convoy of folks zooming past me in the right hand lane if I’m doing 50mph along there, and many of them are going considerably faster than 50mph!

The M48 is a classic. Do they still have all those potholes along there? It's that rare motorway that seems like it's lost in a time warp. It pretty much looks like it's hardly been touched since its days as the M4. Last time I was in there, there were still old signs on it where they'd just stuck the number '8' next to the 4!

Talking of low motorway speeds, I drove back home from Bradford once with the cruise control set to 56mph all the way. I didn't stop and it took ages. But I managed to get 82mpg. Dead proud of that, to this day it remains my all-time record on my cars trip computer.

 

[NuttySquirrel]

The M48 is a classic. Do they still have all those potholes along there? It's that rare motorway that seems like it's lost in a time warp. It pretty much looks like it's hardly been touched since its days as the M4. Last time I was in there, there were still old signs on it where they'd just stuck the number '8' next to the 4!

Decent enough on the England side, plus I think the bridge itself has had a lot of resurfacing work recently. Can't speak for the Welsh side, rarely go that far.

Severn View services though - what the hell?? Basically a kiosk with a few burgers and magazines. And absolutely no view of the Severn anymore. One to avoid even if you are a collector.

 

[Matt.GC]

Decent enough on the England side, plus I think the bridge itself has had a lot of resurfacing work recently. Can't speak for the Welsh side, rarely go that far.

Severn View services though - what the hell?? Basically a kiosk with a few burgers and magazines. And absolutely no view of the Severn anymore. One to avoid even if you are a collector.

Grim isn't it. The current Severn View Services (with no view of the Severn), is the old truckers cafe of the original services. Hence why it's so small.

My mum took me up there a week after the M4 was rerouted when the original building was still in use. A glorious building, right on the cliff edge, eating in the restaurant surrounded by views across the Severn through it's glass windowed surround. The public footpath up there is still there though from the current services. Just walk straight alongside the old access road before you bear off right for the petrol station and hotel. It's still a public right of way.

 

[Matt N]

I think it’s the Welsh side where most of the problems lie on the M48. The speed limit on the Welsh side has been bumped down to 50mph due to defective barriers (don’t quote me on this, but it supposedly has something to do with the barriers being unable to take a heavier electric car crashing into them at 70mph), but the Welsh government has said that the money to upgrade not be spent at any point in the foreseeable future. So I think we’re stuck with 50mph and defective barriers for the foreseeable future. In fact, I’ve seen arguments from some that it’s part of some Welsh government plan to eventually downgrade all motorways in Wales to 50mph (with the M4 around Newport and Swansea/Port Talbot also being mostly 50mph, I guess they already aren’t that far off)… that doesn’t sound right to me, though.

It’s also funny that you should talk about the M48 seeming like a time warp @Matt.GC. The M48 is my nearest motorway, with the junction at Chepstow being 8-9 miles from my house and being where I would typically join the motorway to go east to Bristol/London or west into Wales. I’m close enough that many of the directional signs around where I live have mileage distances towards the motorway… except half of them still think it’s the M4 despite the new Severn Bridge having been open for nearly 30 years! Someone looking at the road signs in Lydney would think that the M4 is only 11 miles away and be bitterly disappointed when they reach Chepstow…

It’s not a bad motorway on the whole, though. It’s often quite quiet, from my experience, which makes it less daunting than a bigger motorway like the M4. From what I’ve been told by my mum and dad, the M48 is often a bit of a respite after the horror of queueing through Chepstow at commuter time… that town direly needs a bypass.

 

[Matt.GC]

Where I live, the A370 has been rerouted down the new Dual Carriageway bypass since 1994. Yet there's still some green road signs along the old route, now B3440, that say A370 on them (stickers have come off some I think).

 

[GaryH]

The 50mph along the M48 is an absolute joke as are most of the roads in Wales now. I was driving through a tiny village in Devon recently where the limit went to 20mph. To be fair everyone did it as the roads were so narrow, houses literally on the roads and a real danger to other vehicles and people driving through it. The limit was only for a short while before it went back to 30 and everyone obeyed it.

Compare to wales where you have wide open ex 30mph roads now reduced to 20 where no one hardly does the limit. This is the danger of the widespread roll out of unwarranted limits. People don’t see the dangers when driving through an area that actually warrants them.

The 50mph along the M48 is another example of a limit people don’t obey. It’s a wide open motorway clear visibility for miles. If the Welsh government really truely cared about road safety then they would spend the money on fixing the roads not wasting £30+ million on not needed 20mph limits and another £18million on extra members in the Senydd. Transport in wales is moving backwards - not forwards.

And if they want to drop motorways and other roads speeds limits the. Fine, but anyone passing in wales should be limited to driving in wales only - if the most you would do is 50mph then people will have a shock hitting 70mph once they cross the bridge into England.

 

[Matt.GC]

I get the controversy around the Welsh government bungling their 20mph policy. But don't you think that the 50mph limit on the M48 could actually be there because the barrier really is defective, and therefore their may possibly be no wider conspiracy theory behind it?

Other than the parts of the M4 where the design standard is clearly not good enough to sustain it, it is still mostly national speed limit for much of its length. The M48 is the most minor of the Welsh governments motorway network and is very expensive to maintain. The bridge spends much of its time closed or with speed restrictions in place, even from the English side. Further afield than that, the connecting motorways both sides of the Severn are also rarely at full-on national speed limit. You'd be lucky to get to 50 when you rejoin the M4 in Wales, and the Almondsbury interchange on the English side is usually a crawl. You have to slow right down and negotiate a roundabout when joining or leaving the M49.

This short stretch of M48 is hardly a spending priority. It's very old and very quiet. There's road work stretches with 50 limits longer than that.

 

[GaryH]

I get the controversy around the Welsh government bungling their 20mph policy. But don't you think that the 50mph limit on the M48 could actually be there because the barrier really is defective, and therefore their may possibly be no wider conspiracy theory behind it?.

This short stretch of M48 is hardly a spending priority. It's very old and very quiet. There's road work stretches with 50 limits longer than that.

So going back to my point - if the Welsh government really are about road safety why haven’t they fixed the barrier by now, or why did but they budget for it years ago instead of spending it on things not needed?

And it’s not really a short stretch that 50mph goes in for miles from the Magor services fork all the way to the bridge. Probably just under 10 miles of wide open motorway stuck at 50.

Plus the 50 all the way from Newport to the other her side of the tunnels, and 50 along port talbot. And I also recall 50 from Caerphilly up to Merthyr in sections. Dare I say but if Dickford had his way he would have made all 70 roads reduced to 50.

As for the M48 not being a spending priority the wish government has made out perfectly clear none of the roads are a spending priority. The state of them is shocking in places. But hey the can find £18 million for their Senydd members.

I was actually in hospital in wales for two weeks recently. I asked for a spare pillow for my bed. Hospital didn’t have any, not one available. No tv in the ward no individual tv. Food was dire. But £18m on new Senydd members and £33m on 20mph limits the majority of which were not needed. But no spare spare pillows in a hospital.

I used to love living in wales but now it’s like a third world country led by muppets.

Anyway going back to new drivers!