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Paultons Park: General Discussion

Enter Valhalla said:
So how does this explain how Chessington had long queues in the 90s before fastrack was a thing?
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Number of factors at play I imagine.

Firstly, did they actually have long queues in general back then? My memory is no, not on the scale they do now, and certainly not on the quieter averagely busy days they do now. Busy days, even events, waits over an hour for anything other than something brand new isn’t something I recall at all.

Then when they did have longer queues they moved. They might have been physically long but in terms of time they weren't frequently like they are now. I recall waiting for Dragon Falls all through the queue which used to be huge through the reed plants, then the cattle pen before the building, then up and over inside. Waiting for RMT queuing over the zeek shoot, in the small cattle pen, then through the multi level indoor section. They were a constant shuffle forward, quite painless and certainly a shorter time than a physically much much shorter queue would take today.

Then you consider when it was busy what rides actually got queues. The big rides could hold a decent wait as I've said, but the support rides would have nothing like the same wait. These days you are waiting as long for the smallest support ride as you can for a headline coaster.

Chessington was also growing rapidly at the time, so at some stages I think it is fair to say they had some headline rides and areas drawing in bigger crowds without the number of support rides we see now at somewhere like Paultons that has grown much more organically. That would on occasion have caused some capacity issues across the park.

And while I had nothing to do with paying for those days out, I think they were always aiming at the sell it cheap and fill it up model.

TLDR : They didn't have that much of a queue time issue and where they did there's some understandable contributors.

The comparison to a different park in a different place at different time is all a bit irrelivant though. The comparison we should use is Paultons now vs Paultons pre covid when they used to sell a tonne of cheap(ish) APs and had a much busier park, bigger queues but less profitability.
 
If it is true that Paultons pushed annual passes more and was busier pre-covid, have they actually made a conscious decision to make the park quiet in order to promote this “we have super short queues” marketing strategy though?

Or are they actually quieter purely by chance, factoring in things like cost of living crisis, etc?

If it’s the latter, then I’d say that pushing the “we have short queues, we don’t have fastrack” line, is short sighted. I’d say that the amount Paultons have been talking about fastrack lately, its likely to be something that they’ve considered, and ultimately decided against.
 
Or perhaps Merlin in general are, even by the other UK parks and not just enthusiasts, are being seen as a perfect chew toy that over the years gained a reputation of what's coming to them with jacked up prices and lower quality so it makes them an easy target for others to point out their glaring faults.

After all, it's easier being a critic and it does seem rather petty on Paulton's end if this is what they want to do though TBH, Merlin have had it coming for a while.
 
Enter Valhalla said:
I get that, but a lot of the reason for Paultons being a less stressful experience is because they have low attendance. This is how they can talk about having no fastrack because they have short queues.

If Paultons was as popular as, Chessington for example, there’d be demand for things like fastrack and the queues would be long even without a fast stack system. It wouldn’t be a thing to boast about. Like it or not, people in the UK like the idea of being able to pay a bit extra to get shorter queues. The fact that Paultons can boldly say “we have short queues so you don’t need fastrack here” is literally only because they happen to have lower attendance.

I visited Chessington and Thorpe in the late 90s before fastrack was a thing and the queues were still pretty long.
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No. Europa Park have very high attendance, but they also operate a no fastrack policy and instead focus on efficient operations to keep the queues shorter.

Let's not undervalue the fact that Paultons put in genuine effort to provide a good service.
 
Merlin for so long have focused so much in gate price offers the average cost per person is very low, then factor in annual passes.

Then your average admission price is very low, but saturate the park with people that generates long queues,

Paultons generate most of the money through a higher gate price, this leads to the same revenue for 1000 as merlin probably get for 3000 (assuming 1000 annual pass holders on the day)

= same income > less guests> shorter queues> better day > more secondary spending
 
Chessie was busy in the 90s because it was THE park in the South. Thorpe's biggest ride was Loggers Leap!

Minimal competition back then, and different operational standards certainly compared to these days. A 60 minute queue then as pluk has said would've been constantly moving compared to a similar one now, due to the RAP and Fastrack issues now abound. Dragon at Legoland is another good example.

The 90s were 30 years ago, so surely comparing "the good old days" is just as strange as comparing park numbers?

Merlin's focus on Annual Pass sales and 2-4-1s has put them in a corner on that side. And has resulted in different expectations from guests, especially in regards to costs.
 
Enter Valhalla said:
If it is true that Paultons pushed annual passes more and was busier pre-covid, have they actually made a conscious decision to make the park quiet in order to promote this “we have super short queues” marketing strategy though?
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That is absolutuly what they've done, and in doing so they've pissed off quite a lot of their old customers who considered themselves loyal but in reality were contributing nearly nothing financially while filling up the park. The passes are now over double the pre pandemic price for unrestricted visits, even the 'star' off peak pass is a lot more expensive than the old unrestricted pass.

But to say they've done it 'in order to promote a marketing strategy' isn't really right, they've done it to provide a better day out. That they can market that better day out is I suppose part of it, but it's more that the premium product they offer is appropriate for and justifies the premium gate price they can charge. I suspect people largely go because of how much they've enjoyed it and from word of mouth, but shouting about the good things as marketing also makes complete sense.

Their park entrance spend per guest is probably massive compared to Merlin parks, so they ddknt have to hide and hustle other charges. Lovely!
 
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Coaster said:
No. Europa Park have very high attendance, but they also operate a no fastrack policy and instead focus on efficient operations to keep the queues shorter.

Let's not undervalue the fact that Paultons put in genuine effort to provide a good service.
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Yes but as I pointed out, in the very post which you quoted here, visitors in the UK have, rightly or wrongly, come to expect fastrack at busy parks. It’s a shame, but it’s a reality. This isn’t the case in Germany. Or nowhere near as much anyway, from what I’ve seen.

I used to work at a UK park which had no fastrack, and you’d not believe how many guests asked if we offered fastrack and even in many cases, moaned that we didn’t. Fastrack is usually hated by enthusiasts, but sadly the British public seem to love it.

Paultons can very easily shout about having short queues and no fastrack with their current low attendance. If the place got busier, it would be much harder to justify to your average guest that not having fastrack is a good thing. I’ve not seen any marketing from EP claiming they have short queues. So my point still stands that PP can only make this marketing claim because they have low attendance.
 
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Enter Valhalla said:
Paultons can very easily shout about having short queues and no fastrack with their current low attendance. If the place got busier, it would be much harder to justify to your average guest that not having fastrack is a good thing. I’ve not seen any marketing from EP claiming they have short queues. So my point still stands that PP can only make this marketing claim because they have low attendance.
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I'm not really sure why this is contentious? To be clear, Paultons could double their number of visitors and have nice long queues to require fastacking by dishing out BOGOF vouchers and halving their AP prices. Then clawing their money back with parking charges, FT sales, crap expensive food and beverage, charging for coin op rides etc etc. But thankfully they don't. They don't have low attendance due to a lack of success, but a completely different philosophy on how to run a themepark. They don't want it 'loads busier' and I'm sure if they did get 'loads busier' they'd amend their pricing further to supress the numbers while maintaining income an their product and reputation... like they already have!

EP don't necessarily have short queues. They have long fast moving queues with great operations and barely inhibited by anything.
 
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Enter Valhalla said:
Yes but as I pointed out, in the very post which you quoted here, visitors in the UK have, rightly or wrongly, come to expect fastrack at busy parks. It’s a shame, but it’s a reality. This isn’t the case in Germany. Or nowhere near as much anyway, from what I’ve seen.

I used to work at a UK park which had no fastrack, and you’d not believe how many guests asked if we offered fastrack and even in many cases, moaned that we didn’t. Fastrack is usually hated by enthusiasts, but sadly the British public seem to love it.

Paultons can very easily shout about having short queues and no fastrack with their current low attendance. If the place got busier, it would be much harder to justify to your average guest that not having fastrack is a good thing. I’ve not seen any marketing from EP claiming they have short queues. So my point still stands that PP can only make this marketing claim because they have low attendance.
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It's a completely different business model. For some reason you don't seem to like it or appreciate it.

If guests have come to expect fast track, then visiting Paultons will simply be a pleasant surprise for them then... which is why they are shouting about it (something for some reason you disagree with). If it is now a USP then great!

Short queues are not a result of 'low attendances' but a result of:

-a lot of rides, especially 'filler' rides and attractions

-a premium pricing strategy

-excellent park operations and ride availability

It is clearly working for them as the two recent planning permissions put in would suggest a large development coming in the next few years.
 
Themepark-newbie said:
It's a completely different business model. For some reason you don't seem to like it or appreciate it.

If guests have come to expect fast track, then visiting Paultons will simply be a pleasant surprise for them then... which is why they are shouting about it (something for some reason you disagree with). If it is now a USP then great!

Short queues are not a result of 'low attendances' but a result of:

-a lot of rides, especially 'filler' rides and attractions

-a premium pricing strategy

-excellent park operations and ride availability

It is clearly working for them as the two recent planning permissions put in would suggest a large development coming in the next few years.
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Hang on, I never said I don’t like the business model. I said that I don’t like the marketing strategy of making digs at other parks which have fastrack and charge for parking. Yes I get that this is how a lot of businesses do their marketing, and I’ve already said that this is probably why I could never be a success in the world of marketing.

Enthusiasts defend Paultons marketing in this way because we like the way that Paultons operate, but as I’ve already said, if it was the other way round and Merlin said “unlike other parks we offer discounts”, people would not be as quick to defend this type of marketing despite it being true. I’m not keen on businesses pointing out the flaws of their competitors to make themselves look good.

That said, I rarely visit Paultons because the high pricing structure puts me off and makes it harder to justify paying so much, especially when I can pay for the likes of Drayton, Oakwood and BPB entirely in Clubcard vouchers, essentially costing me nothing, so maybe I’m not that keen on their business model now I think about it from a purely selfish point of view.

Also, a premium pricing strategy does result in fewer visitors. That, by definition, is low attendance. Doesn’t mean they’re failing, it just means they have less people in the park than at parks with different pricing strategies.
 
Enter Valhalla said:
If it is true that Paultons pushed annual passes more and was busier pre-covid, have they actually made a conscious decision to make the park quiet in order to promote this “we have super short queues” marketing strategy though?

Or are they actually quieter purely by chance, factoring in things like cost of living crisis, etc?
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Don’t forget though that there will be a significant amount of guests that go to Paulton’s as families with very young children that spend a large part of their day in Peppa Pig World. These people aren’t going there to ride the thrill rides and so that has an effect of keeping the queues shorter on the rides that people like you and I actually want to go on.
 
It is an interesting debate.

I never really thought about it like that before; I always thought that Paultons had lower attendance due to it simply not being as popular as the big parks, but come to think of it, I guess it could be a conscious business decision.

Their recent accounts, with profits of well over £10m during the 2021 season, would suggest that they don’t need the extra guests, so all power to them if they can run a park like that and make huge profits! Their recent momentum would suggest that this approach is working, anyhow, and I certainly hope it’s an approach they continue with, as it makes for a supremely pleasant experience all round!

I still personally prefer Alton, Blackpool and Thorpe amongst the UK parks, as those do have the big hitters thrill-wise that Paultons doesn’t and are overall still a bit bigger and grander in scale, but I’d probably say that Paultons is my 4th favourite UK park. It has some very good, solid, fun family coasters, some very nice theming in areas, and overall, it’s a very clean, fun, wholesome-feeling park! Despite my recent post in the Unpopular Opinions thread, I did like my day at Paultons a lot, and I do think that the park deserves most of the praise and excitement it gets; it’s a very nice, well-run place!

Out of interest, does anyone know what Paultons’ annual attendance is like these days? I always assumed that it was only around the 1 million mark, but they apparently hit 1 million all the way back in 2011, so I’d like to think that their attendance has grown since then given how much they’ve put in.
 
Enter Valhalla said:
I’m not keen on businesses pointing out the flaws of their competitors to make themselves look good.
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They haven't, you have projected that yourself.

All they have said is what they do, it's up to the reader to notice a difference and decide if they think that's better than another park or attraction. There's no vs Merlin table or anything remotely that aggressive.
 
pluk said:
They haven't, you have projected that yourself.

All they have said is what they do, it's up to the reader to notice a difference and decide if they think that's better than another park or attraction. There's no vs Merlin table or anything remotely that aggressive.
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I was about to say the same thing. Paulton have listed what they offer, they aren't making any comparison.
 
Enter Valhalla said:
Them literally saying “you don’t need fastrack” isn’t them comparing themselves to other parks? If you say so!
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No, you are doing the comparing.

It's like Chessington posting 'the family can visit for £50'*, which they do and have been recently.
They are letting you think oooh, that's good compared to the cinema/bowling/Paultons/Disneyland/a week in Costa Del Sol. They are not simply fact stating, it all has meaning the receiver might want to infur for themselves.

The difference here is Paultons claim is just straight up truth, Merlins is somewhat underhand with all the hidden and not so hidden charges and shortcomings.

By your reasoning no business should spend time or effort pointing out the good things that differentiate them in case its seen as putting another business down? It's a bit of a nonsense to be honest.



* terms and conditions apply, you have to pay for parking, you will get on minimal rises without supplementary spend. The value of you as a guest may go down as well as up once we have your cash. No liability for loss or damage exciting our decrepit carpark despite the extortionate fee or illness from our 1 star hygiene rated catering.
 
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Coaster said:
Why would you not do that though? If you were marketing a park it would be bonkers to not advertise your strengths!
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Advertise that you have short queue times, of course, although doing so does put them into a difficult position in future if the park ever does start to get long queues and they have to drop this marketing line.

But as I keep saying, if they’re specifically referencing fastrack, which is something that they know other UK parks offer, then I don’t like this style of marketing.

Shouting about what they offer is exactly what I think they should be doing. Saying “you don’t need fastrack” is very clearly a reference to the parks which do have fastrack. Merlin advertising record breaking coasters is marketing something which they do have. I’ve never heard Merlin say “we have better coasters than other parks”, there’s a big difference.
 
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