• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

Russia vs NATO

GaryH said:
Three things from the comment above:

1. does the UN even exist anymore and if it does, it has no relevance in the world anymore

2. China and Russia have hypersonic missiles which can take out western defences before we can strike back, so it doesn’t necessarily mean mutually assured destruction anymore.

3. Given we bought all our communications infrastructure from china, crippling the country should be easy for them!
Click to expand...

Just on the hypersonic weapons, we know they have tested them but they are designed to get through our defences not to prevent our weapons getting to them.

MAD is still a deterrent as they don’t have anyway of stopping US nukes and they don’t know where most of them are (it’s rare to use silo based missiles anymore, most are located on submarines). Plus even a hypersonic missile has around 10 minutes of flight to get from Russia to America so even if all the American Nukes could be targeted they would likely be able to launch before the Russians missiles reached their base

Finally Russia and China advertised their missile development because they are mostly playing to a home audience. America for all its faults tends not to advertise its tech advances in military terms unless it has to, so god knows what defences they actually have developed, i suspect it’s quite advanced.
 
Well its one way of getting rid of covid 19.

I do wonder if this will be come our generations version of the quba missile crisis.

Sent from my SM-A217F using Tapatalk
 
Cuban missile crisis, soon after this old git was born.
The Ruskies, in their nuclear sub, got very close to starting world war three because the yanks dropped warning mines...the Russians thought they were real depth charges, and two of the three sub commanders voted to press the big red button...they had the power and ability to do so.
Rusky commander number three said no, not yet, and it had to be the vote of all three...and there was no nuclear war.
But we were really that close.
This time?
This will be conventional arms, Rusky walkover, NATO will sit, watch and bitch...economic sanctions, threats to turn off the energy supplies from Russia, and eventual concessions to the east because we can't afford not to.
It will all be over by Christmas, just not sure which year.
 
Russia will be no walkover anymore. While the west has focused on cutting the size of its armies Russia and China have been very busy modernising and expanding theirs. There is no better time than noise for would order to change and putin knows this. The chaos from Covid and with Biden and Boris in power heck if I was putin I’d be ready to kick off and reclaim the old USSR too right now while China goes for Taiwan. The west won’t do a thing because it knows it would lose.
 
GaryH said:
Russia will be no walkover anymore. While the west has focused on cutting the size of its armies Russia and China have been very busy modernising and expanding theirs. There is no better time than noise for would order to change and putin knows this. The chaos from Covid and with Biden and Boris in power heck if I was putin I’d be ready to kick off and reclaim the old USSR too right now while China goes for Taiwan. The west won’t do a thing because it knows it would lose.
Click to expand...
I agree with the sentiment completely although I wouldn't be so quick as to right off NATO and the rest of the west. Combined NATO has an absolutely astonishing and technological superior force. I think it would more be about the willingness to go to war over Ukraine. Taiwan is a different case and I think that one might actually happen. I very much doubt Russia is about to invade the whole of eastern Europe rather I think they'll take small parts of Ukraine and then come to some sort of settlement. Putin simply wants more global influence hence why he started this in the first place. One day I hope Russia can be a true democracy as well as China for that matter.
 
NATO is disjointed. Germany has already backed off because it’s dependent on Russian gas. The old USSR countries have indicated they would not send troops to Ukraine if it came to it. The U.K. military has been cut to its bare bones. France will do its usual of turn then then go home again or just quit, so at the moment NATO is mainly the US with a few extra bits from Spain, Denmark and the U.K.‘s only aircraft carrier.

Bit of a joke really. Meanwhile you have China and Russia with its hypersonic missiles and fighter jets well capable of setting off the new F35 lightning. You know - the one plagued by problems and which fell off the end of our only aircraft carrier last month.

The only weakness Russia and China have at the moment is that their trips are conscripts. However the nationalist brainwashing they have been fed over the past few years means they are ready to fight for their cause. Or what they believe it to be anyway.

Next steps I think will be Russian troops and missiles in Cuba and Venezuela, to watch the US will then respond with its military. Cuban missile crisis all over again, except this time with a clever scheming ex KGB agent against a senile old man who doesn’t know what day of the week it is!!

https://apple.news/Ax75R423MRUOgV18ZyRn_bg
 
Last edited:
GaryH said:
NATO is disjointed. Germany has already backed off because it’s dependent on Russian gas. The old USSR countries have indicated they would not send troops to Ukraine if it came to it. The U.K. military has been cut to its bare bones. France will do its usual of turn then then go home again or just quit, so at the moment NATO is mainly the US with a few extra bits from Spain, Denmark and the U.K.‘s only aircraft carrier.
Click to expand...
I agree that NATO is disjointed and as I stated will not give a unified response to Ukraine as they've all got individual interests. I don't think Putin will risk a full invasion though I still think he'll do everything but. Including having agents inside the Ukraine government.
GaryH said:
Bit of a joke really. Meanwhile you have China and Russia with its hypersonic missiles and fighter jets well capable of setting off the new F35 lightning. You know - the one plagued by problems and which fell off the end of our only aircraft carrier last month.
Click to expand...
The F35 has had a lot of issue's but is still considerably better than most of China's fighter jets that are literally copies of old american or soviet designs. Russia isn't much better. As for the hypersonic missles the simple answer is we don't know what they can do although they'd likely be capable of shooting down some planes. The UK actually has two aircraft carriers in service now: HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. Current PoW is leading a NATO battle group somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where).
GaryH said:
The only weakness Russia and China have at the moment is that their trips are conscripts. However the nationalist brainwashing they have been fed over the past few years means they are ready to fight for their cause. Or what they believe it to be anyway.
Click to expand...
I don't know about the Russains although I doubt that about the Chinese because of the one child policy. Why would parents stand losing there own child for a war? I don't think they would.

What I think will happen is Russia will try and exert it's influence wherever it can including in Venezuela and likely try many tactics in Ukraine. I'm not sure about Cuba yet. It's getting serious although I doubt we are at WWIII levels just yet, nor do I think we are likely to see that. I actually think we are heading for cold war pt2. Which is going to be a lot more complex than the first. Especially because the Russian's and the Chinese have completely different goals. Nato's quite disjointed and there are other players like India too.
 
JAperson said:
Yes I've been watching it. HMS Northumberland for it's age seems to be a great ship.
Click to expand...
Annoyingly the final episode is not on next week as there is a four-part nightly drama on instead. :(
Something to look forward to though, it's really interesting. :)
 
GaryH said:
Cuban missile crisis take two stating tomorrow by the looks of things

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-...ster-late-next-week-on-one-condition-12544845
Click to expand...
This is both ridicolous and dangerous, nobody wants World War three but it's looking more and more likely to happen by accident. Yes I know a war in Ukraine wouldn't likely mean World War three but it would be a pointless conflict. Putin is behaving like a child who can't get what he wants to he threatens to break the poorer kids toys (in terms of Ukraine).
Somebody needs to get rid of Putin but that doesn't seem likely at the moment.
 
pluk said:
This is a very western view. Look into the history of this and it's far less clear cut...
Click to expand...
Trust me I have, it's still my view. I understand why many Russians view Ukraine as there's however there is the principle of self determinisation.
 
I have a funny feeling that Putin is messing around to make the west look scared of Russia.
It would make his leadership looks brilliant, as he got back the power of Russia from the golden age back.

I can see after the war games end, news report in some Russian newspapers saying "Nato is scared of Russia mighty war games"

Sent from my SM-A217F using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tom
This is bigger than Ukraine. It’s a new world order. The west is in a mess. Collapsed economies, massive debts, Russia and particularly China now see their moment to change things. For too long the west has punished Russia and kept it in the corner, it’s not only had enough but now feels it can try and get some power back again particularly with China backing them up. Make no doubt that Russia will go in to Ukraine and China will reclaim Taiwan. Sanctions won’t stop anything, Russia is switching gas supplies to Europe off and turning them on to Asia. The more sanctions will just push it closer and closer to Asia.
 
GaryH said:
This is bigger than Ukraine. It’s a new world order. The west is in a mess. Collapsed economies, massive debts, Russia and particularly China now see their moment to change things. For too long the west has punished Russia and kept it in the corner, it’s not only had enough but now feels it can try and get some power back again particularly with China backing them up. Make no doubt that Russia will go in to Ukraine and China will reclaim Taiwan. Sanctions won’t stop anything, Russia is switching gas supplies to Europe off and turning them on to Asia. The more sanctions will just push it closer and closer to Asia.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you are right but Russia and China have very little international interests in common they are simply trying to appear strong together. China isn't going to support Russia's advance into Ukraine and Russia won't support China's advance into Taiwan. China and Russia are trying to present this common security idea so that they can get there individual aims neither will actually help each other. A considerable portion of China's economy comes from sale of good to Europe and so it needs to be very careful when toeing the line, Russia can and is turning to Asia however China is a more global economy too, Russia isn't being punished for the sake of it, it's a dictatorship that's authoritarian and kills people it doesn't like even on foreign soil (Salisbury poising) in my opinion that's justification. China should have the same treatment and in fact I think a lot of the world has started to distrust China. It's no longer looked upon with a good light like it once was and is now seen as a threat hence the AUKUS alliance. China has been particularly cruel to Australia and Taiwan. Taiwan because it claims a democratic country and Australia because it thought it could seek more influence when actually it seems to be beginning to backfire for them.
I hope that neither succeeded and we've still got a chance to stop them. The west is always seen as in decline, we aren't perfect, no where near, but it is for sure better than having authoritarian dictatorships. We aren't ever going to be completed united because there is more than one view, which is a good thing, we are permitted to debate in have freedom in our discussions.
 
Well just watching Putin do his 50 minute tv address to the Russian people has made his message quite clear - he is ready for WW3 if he doesn’t get Ukraine back under Russian control. His feeling a towards the west were quite clear. Very worrying times indeed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top