Russia vs NATO

[Matt N]

You’ve heard a Putin on the news, he’sa modern day Hitler and this is a start of new world order. The Coronavirus was made in a lab in China to destabilise the world and cripple economies and to give Russia and China the upper hand. It’s been planned for years.

With regards to the bolded; I didn’t think this had ever been proven? I thought the official line was still that it originated in a wet market in Wuhan, or possibly leaked out of a virus research lab in a freak accident?

I am worried about the current situation, though… although clearly not as worried as I imagine those in Ukraine are; they all have my utmost sympathy.

 

[Dave]

If we have chance in the future I hope to god people now see we have been doing nothing but pumping china full of money by means of cheap goods which they will use in their military against us.

You’ve heard a Putin on the news, he’sa modern day Hitler and this is a start of new world order. The Coronavirus was made in a lab in China to destabilise the world and cripple economies and to give Russia and China the upper hand. It’s been planned for years.

What next after a Ukraine odd the bigger question now. God bless the people of Ukraine. Kids over there must be absolutely terrified.

Russia and China have an uneasy alliance, that’s only really strengthened in the last few years so I highly doubt they developed coronavirus together (plus chatter between two nations is easy to intercept and America still has the best surveillance systems going and Trump was so leaky he would have said something), it’s also almost certain that coronovirus was not made in a lab, if you was going to create a virus to destabilise the world you would use something a little more targeted and be a bit cleverer about not releasing it first in your own country, I do think there is a good chance however that Chinese scientists where researching a natural virus and accidentally released it.

I was thinking the same @Dave - get a puppet govt in Ukraine and then sue for peace. Whilst people say the sanctions won't work, this has to be an eye opener to wean the west off the need for Russian gas. The UK thankfully uses less than 5% so not a huge issue here

But to hit Russia where it hurts is to stop using the fossil fuels they supply and go into greener areas

We may not use much gas but London is where most Russian money is moved around and the Tory party are massively funded by them (Johnson when foreign sec snuck off to a party for the son of one Russian putin buddy and made them a Lord). A lot of other countries say the reason sanctions have been so weak up to now is because UK gov has resisted them.

 

[WillPS]

Hilter openly spoke of a new world order controlled from Berlin. That's pretty far from Putin's stated aim of protecting communities which historically have been under Russian control.

Can't believe I'm the guy standing up for Putin today.

 

[Rick]

Hilter openly spoke of a new world order controlled from Berlin. That's pretty far from Putin's stated aim of protecting communities which historically have been under Russian control.

Can't believe I'm the guy standing up for Putin today.

Some of Hitler's territorial ambitions were driven by similar motives. The Sudetenland, which had a predominately German population, redrawn into Czechoslovakia after WW1 was positioned quite similarly, no ?

 

[WillPS]

Some of Hitler's territorial ambitions were driven by similar motives. The Sudetenland, which had a predominately German population, redrawn into Czechoslovakia after WW1 was positioned quite similarly, no ?

Yes, but what I'm saying is Hitler was chatting about the third reich in parrallel with his invasions over territories he sought to reclaim following what he determined to be reclaiming a land which was taken from his nation invalidly.

To be honest the situation is so different I'm not sure there's any point comparing - the post WWI map was entirely forced on Germany which is not at all the same as how the post-Soviet republics came to be

 

[GaryH]

I hear you @WillPS however we all saw Putin’s history lesson on TV at the start of the week. He made it quite clear that he wants to rebuild the old USSR which means not just Ukraine, but the other pre-USSR countries which border Ukraine. So in that respect, we could say he does have ambitions similar to Hitler who at the time also wanted to re build a bigger stronger Germany.

Edit: listen to Putin’s speech today. He calls us the axis of evil, the neo Nazis, that people comrades who fought for the USSR should stand up and not listen to our lies. That off we stand up to Russia we will have consequences never seen before in history - which to me sounds like a threat to all of us with nuclear weapons.

 

[WillPS]

I hear you @WillPS however we all saw Putin’s history lesson on TV at the start of the week. He made it quite clear that he wants to rebuild the old USSR which means not just Ukraine, but the other pre-USSR countries which border Ukraine. So in that respect, we could say he does have ambitions similar to Hitler who at the time also wanted to re build a bigger stronger Germany.

Good luck with that old son. He won't start a fight with NATO because he knows he would lose. This wouldn't be happening had Ukraine been admitted.

To your point tho - rebuilding the Russian Empire is not the same scale of ambition as a 'Third Reich'.

Edit: listen to Putin’s speech today. He calls us the axis of evil, the neo Nazis, that people comrades who fought for the USSR should stand up and not listen to our lies. That off we stand up to Russia we will have consequences never seen before in history - which to me sounds like a threat to all of us with nuclear weapons.

I think his speech is designed to provoke exactly that reaction.

 

[Alsty]

The problem is, what do you do about it? I haven't heard anybody say what they would do about the situation now.

Do nothing and the West comes across as weak, potentially opening up the prospect of further invasions of other Eastern bloc countries (although it remains to be seen if Russia would invade a NATO member). Alternatively send troops in? Nobody wants to do that because of the signficant escalation and bloodbath that would ensue. I don't see how there could be any winners if you do that, just a massive drain on every country involved.

 

[WillPS]

The problem is, what do you do about it? I haven't heard anybody say what they would do about the situation now.

Do nothing and the West comes across as weak, potentially opening up the prospect of further invasions of other Eastern bloc countries (although it remains to be seen if Russia would invade a NATO member). Alternatively send troops in? Nobody wants to do that because of the signficant escalation and bloodbath that would ensue. I don't see how there could be any winners if you do that, just a massive drain on every country involved.

Sanction the living hell out of Russia, is all we really can do.

Doing so will probably involve hundreds of thousands of homes in Europe going cold so is not without sacrifice - we probably should really be doing something about our dependence on gas regardless tho.

 

[GaryH]

There is a big danger here though. Let’s say Putin has lost his marbles. We have sanctioned the country to death. He feels he has nothing to lose. We will cripple the Russian economy even more. You put a person in a position where they feel they have nothing to lose and your in a very dangerous situation. Unfortunately I feel Putin might be thinking this.

 

[rob666]

I was thinking the same @Dave - get a puppet govt in Ukraine and then sue for peace. Whilst people say the sanctions won't work, this has to be an eye opener to wean the west off the need for Russian gas. The UK thankfully uses less than 5% so not a huge issue here

But to hit Russia where it hurts is to stop using the fossil fuels they supply and go into greener areas

Massive issue here...energy prices are pretty much global, oil prices up, share prices down.
And we dumped nuclear power foolishly in the eighties and nineties, because, you know, privatisation and votes.

 

[WillPS]

There is a big danger here though. Let’s say Putin has lost his marbles. We have sanctioned the country to death. He feels he has nothing to lose. We will cripple the Russian economy even more. You put a person in a position where they feel they have nothing to lose and your in a very dangerous situation. Unfortunately I feel Putin might be thinking this.

Putin has not lost his marbles tho... he's priced in every bit of sanction we will throw at him - he probably just presumes that we will break under political pressure when gas supplies are exhausted and/or people are unable to heat their homes.

The timing of this invasion is not a coincidence; with gas prices are at a historic high and our dependency on gas being openly questioned (at long last), this is his moment of opportunity to inflict maximum pressure on the international community to flinch in order to keep the lights on and the cold off next winter.

Don't make the mistake of conflating calculated despotism with mania.

 

[Dave]

Putin is certainly a Zealot but he isn’t mad. Launching nuclear weapons will be unlikely as he knows America will retaliate.

There are more nuclear powers in NATO than outside of it.

 

[JAperson]

What Putin is doing is out of order but we know just have to hope the Ukraine's will give him a hard time. We'll have to keep supplying them with weapons however they seem very determined to protect there freedoms and I wish them all the best. I hope the people or Ukraine stay safe and never give up,
With regard to sanctions places Russia closer to China it's a factor however China and Russia have completely different international interests, as noted China hasn't commented on Ukraine. If anything they've agreed to stay quiet about each others illegal activities.
If China invades Taiwan that will be the end of the Chinese regime in my view but for different reasons to complete military defeat. Due to the one child policy, most families only have one person to look after them and to keep the family traditions alive (from what I understand the young tend to look after the old in china and it's seen as a responsibility although I don't have full understanding of this). Sending families only child off to fight in a war and die will not be popular with the Chinese public and even chunks of the low level government officials. It seems to me a way a bit of a slow self destruct button a bit like the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan but on a bigger scale. Even if the Chinese population believe Taiwan is part of China I doubt they'd be willing to go to such lengths to retake it. Taking Taiwan is no easy feet, it would require a massive amphibious landing with massive casualties, far less easy than Putins current undertaking.

 

[GaryH]

Indeed however the Russian nuclear Arsenal is now far more advanced than the west. Hypersonic missiles, “clean” nukes , EMP nukes. Was only about two months ago an American general was dating the west has to up its game and that Russia and China militarily are becoming more advanced.

If one good thing comes out of this it will be we now see Russia and China for who they really are are start to become for self sufficient.

I just feel so sad for the incident Ukrainian people. Seeing the news and the city streets look like any other modern European city. This could be France, Britain, Italy….. I now understand the anger and feeling of wanting to fight that our grandparents had to go and fight against Germany in the Second World War.

 

[JAperson]

Indeed however the Russian nuclear Arsenal is now far more advanced than the west. Hypersonic missiles, “clean” nukes , EMP nukes. Was only about two months ago an American general was dating the west has to up its game and that Russia and China militarily are becoming more advanced.

But that's irrelevant when it comes to nukes, and America has a far better nuclear arsenal than Russia. If Putin sends a nuke, he'll get a nuclear response. It might not be from the best or most advanced nuke's but that really doesn't matter, Russia would still be destroyed.

 

[GaryH]

But that's irrelevant when it comes to nukes, and America has a far better nuclear arsenal than Russia. If Putin sends a nuke, he'll get a nuclear response. It might not be from the best or most advanced nuke's but that really doesn't matter, Russia would still be destroyed.

but if Russia has hypersonic missiles which can take out American nukes before they are launched….. what then?

 

[JAperson]

but if Russia has hypersonic missiles which can take out American nukes before they are launched….. what then?

Good question, from what I understand Russia has no where near the amount of hypersonic nukes to take out all of the US and the UK's nukes. Furthermore we don't know how effective these hypersonic missiles are, they've never been tested in a real world scenario (yes I know most modern nukes haven't). Furthermore the UK's nukes are mostly in submarines that are designed to be unlocatable, our trident submarines could be anywhere and the missiles need to be programmed where to go. By the time they've located a submarine, we will have launched all the nukes and blown up lots of Russia. I believe the US also has nuclear submarines but I know very little about it's submarine fleet.

 

[Dave]

but if Russia has hypersonic missiles which can take out American nukes before they are launched….. what then?

1) Russia has stated they have hypersonic nukes, they have never proved they have.

2) Hypersonic and intercepting are two different things, you can go as fast as you like but you also need to be able to aim to take out an ICBM and despite various sides saying they can do it they have never proven the concept. In general a single ICBM reaches space then separates into multiple warheads so you are not shooting down one, you are shooting down 100.

3) America doesn’t tell the world what it is doing with their war tech, they are not playing to a home audience and their motto has always been “you don’t show anyone your cards unless you have to”. Some retired generals might say something to the media but they don’t have access to top secret files.

 

[delta79]

There are reports of Russian troops trying to take Chernobyl and the exclusion zone including Pripyat.

I really do hope they stop at the access control gates. And leave the inside to the teams that keep it under control.

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