Should Maths and English be made compulsory past GCSE level?

[DistortAMG]

Poor sods have to trim their own bushes.

At least bushes are being trimmed. Unlike continental Europe, where bush trimming takes a back seat. Some very bushy bushes on the continent....allegedly.

 

[Matt N]

My son is not like me and his mother at all in that he's gifted. He's 13, loves maths and sciences and wants to do them at A level. Very proud of him. But I've told him to get a job as soon as he turns 16 alongside his studies.

@Matt.GC Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but one thing I implore you to do is to make sure that your son knows just how difficult Maths and Science A Levels are, even in comparison to the same subjects at GCSE.

I’m not trying to put him off such a path by any means (it sounds like a great path if he wants to pursue it), but I think it would be beneficial for him (or anyone pursuing STEM A Levels, for that matter) to be prepared for just how difficult they are.

I speak from experience here; I myself went into sixth form having pursued a very similar path. I picked Maths, Physics, Computer Science and Further Maths as my 4 A Levels. In all truth, I wanted to do Geography instead of Further Maths originally, but a timetable clash meant that my reserve choice of Further Maths had to be picked instead. The school were also very insistent that Geography was a poor choice alongside the other A Levels I was doing and they felt that Further Maths would complement them far better, so they advised me towards Further Maths. In hindsight, I do think that making all 4 of my A Levels STEM-based was a mistake for me, and I was perhaps naive about just how difficult some of my A Level subjects would be.

Computer Science was perfectly alright, and I never had any major difficulties with that one (exam grades were always at least an A or B, and I walked out at the end with an A*). I really enjoyed the A Level, and as such, I am now studying the subject at degree level.

However, Maths, Further Maths and Physics were all subjects I found thoroughly difficult to varying degrees. I will not beat around the bush here; these subjects were tough. As I said above, I just didn’t get Further Maths at all, and never did no matter how hard I tried, and as such, I dropped it 4 months in. Maths and Physics were both highly challenging subjects, and I had to put a lot of time and work into understanding both; I really struggled with them. There were some low mock grades in the process (I’m not proud of it, but Ds and Es were attained at times, even during Year 13 in some cases). At the end, I somehow managed an A in Physics (I’m not quite sure how…), but I only managed a C in Maths.

Sorry about the tangent there. I don’t mean to be morbid, I don’t want to put him off, and I don’t mean to be a “doomster and gloomster” as Boris Johnson would say. I merely want you and your son to have a full picture of what STEM A Levels are like before committing to anything. I’d want anyone pursuing STEM A Levels to gain a full picture to make sure that they were better informed about them than I was at the time. I obviously don’t know your son, so I don’t know what he’s like or what suits him, but I made the mistake of assuming I’d do well at these subjects at A Level just because I did fairly OK in them at GCSE, and I wouldn’t want him to make the same assumption without having a full picture of what these A Levels are like.

 

[pluk]

Compulsory education beyond 16 should not be mandated at all, let alone specific subjects.
The opportunity to learn should be available to those who want it though, including those who have left education and want to return. The decisions people at 16 seem needlessly final.

 

[Matt.GC]

The problem these days is that you need a degree for many roles where you didn’t necessarily need one a few decades ago, and an almost universally accepted prerequisite of a degree is A Levels or some sort of equivalent education.

Compared to a couple of decades ago, I think not doing A Levels or an equivalent way of gaining UCAS points inhibits you more. It is far harder to just walk into a job like you used to be able to; the job market is far more competitive, and employers have far higher demands. While getting a degree, A Levels or similar is not a silver bullet that guarantees you a job by any means, it will make you significantly more employable in many fields.

Of course, however, a fair few fields still do not require A Levels or a degree, and there’s nothing wrong with taking one of these paths if it suits you.

With that in mind, I do get the government’s policy of keeping people in education until 18. However, I still maintain that I don’t think Maths and English should be forced upon people past GCSE if they don’t want to take it.

Whilst I agree somewhat with this, I feel there's a contradiction in your argument there. You've said that you need a degree more and more for jobs which is correct, yet a catalyst for that is forcing so many young people down that route which not letting 16 year olds leave school and work leads to.

I do genuinely feel for younger people and the opportunities you have these days. You're pressurised into getting high level qualifications, amassing high levels of debt in the process with a competitive job market. A lot of these jobs don't even pay well either. Full time work off the bat is also hard to come by. Your access to housing is also a national scandal. I feel lucky to have grown up when I did and as a father I do worry about my children's future.

I don't know if this provides any hope for you, but there are still opportunities if you're willing to broaden your horizons. You may be conditioned into thinking that you need a degree for even the most basic of careers and that's particularly true in the public sector. But in the private sector, money talks and if you can prove your worth they are more willing to overlook traditional conventions.

You can still walk in off the street with not a single qualification to your name and work your way up in hospitality and retail for instance. I employ a lot of students and a lot of them look down their nose at what we do and that seems to drive opportunities because it's not very attractive for most people. Loads of people seem to be holding out for this Mon - Fri "Dave from accounts" job that pays top dollar but these jobs only exist in small numbers. The general rule is, if no one wants to do it then there's normally opportunities.

On Indeed right now, there's pub and hotel managers jobs that are paying more than a lot of the jobs demanding all sorts of degrees. Managing an Aldi or Lidl will net you a salary similar to a GP. These are jobs that don't require any qualifications and employ a lot of students already. They just require what many consider "sacrifices" and a lot of hard work.

Every time our area changes, at manager's meetings we have to reintroduce ourselves and what we've done in our careers. There's always the "Well I worked part time when I was at uni, couldn't find a job in my chosen career path and then someone offered me a supervisors job and the rest is history" tales being told.

I'm not saying I don't have regrets (at the age of nearly 40, I've just applied for my employers degree apprenticeship program actually, wish me luck!) but a killer one two will always be a hard work ethic backed by a solid education.

 

[Matt N]

Whilst I agree somewhat with this, I feel there's a contradiction in your argument there. You've said that you need a degree more and more for jobs which is correct, yet a catalyst for that is forcing so many young people down that route which not letting 16 year olds leave school and work leads to.

I do genuinely feel for younger people and the opportunities you have these days. You're pressurised into getting high level qualifications, amassing high levels of debt in the process with a competitive job market. A lot of these jobs don't even pay well either. Full time work off the bat is also hard to come by. Your access to housing is also a national scandal. I feel lucky to have grown up when I did and as a father I do worry about my children's future.

I don't know if this provides any hope for you, but there are still opportunities if you're willing to broaden your horizons. You may be conditioned into thinking that you need a degree for even the most basic of careers and that's particularly true in the public sector. But in the private sector, money talks and if you can prove your worth they are more willing to overlook traditional conventions.

You can still walk in off the street with not a single qualification to your name and work your way up in hospitality and retail for instance. I employ a lot of students and a lot of them look down their nose at what we do and that seems to drive opportunities because it's not very attractive for most people. Loads of people seem to be holding out for this Mon - Fri "Dave from accounts" job that pays top dollar but these jobs only exist in small numbers. The general rule is, if no one wants to do it then there's normally opportunities.

On Indeed right now, there's pub and hotel managers jobs that are paying more than a lot of the jobs demanding all sorts of degrees. Managing an Aldi or Lidl will net you a salary similar to a GP. These are jobs that don't require any qualifications and employ a lot of students already. They just require what many consider "sacrifices" and a lot of hard work.

Every time our area changes, at manager's meetings we have to reintroduce ourselves and what we've done in our careers. There's always the "Well I worked part time when I was at uni, couldn't find a job in my chosen career path and then someone offered me a supervisors job and the rest is history" tales being told.

I'm not saying I don't have regrets (at the age of nearly 40, I've just applied for my employers degree apprenticeship program actually, wish me luck!) but a killer one two will always be a hard work ethic backed by a solid education.

That’s a good point; perhaps jobs are demanding degrees more as a result of schools pushing A Levels and university more rather than the other way round?

When I was in sixth form, university was certainly quite heavily emphasised, with very little talk about alternative options. To tell you the honest truth, I actually wanted to pursue an apprenticeship post-Sixth Form initially, but many of my teachers were very dismissive of the prospect and said things along the lines of “You’re a clever boy. You’d be really selling yourself short by going into an apprenticeship rather than university”. I must admit I thought that was slightly insulting to people who don’t go to university, but I did feel somewhat pressured into considering university as an option. Ultimately, I ended up both applying for an apprenticeship and making a UCAS application and applying to universities.

The apprenticeship I applied for was actually very prestigious, hard to get into and highly regarded within industry, but I think a lot of my teachers were unimpressed that it only had A Level requirements of BBC and a minimum of grade 5 in GCSE Maths. This apprenticeship didn’t really take A Levels and academic achievement into account an awful lot, but had a very, very rigorous aptitude testing process to screen potential candidates. I got part of the way into this process, but I found the aptitude test phenomenally difficult and I realised this apprenticeship just wasn’t for me when I was doing that. I didn’t formally quit the application process, but my heart wasn’t really in it after I got so far, and I ultimately wasn’t good enough progress to the next stage anyway, so it didn’t really matter either way. In hindsight, I do think it was good that I wasn’t welcomed to progress further, as from what I gather, the process from there would have gotten very intense, and I discovered that the role wasn’t really for me the more I found out about it.

When I searched universities, I looked at a number, but I found one that I must say really took my fancy; the Computer Science course at the University of Gloucestershire. The modules sounded thoroughly interesting, my parents agreed that it sounded brilliant, and when we went down to Cheltenham, I must admit that I’d been won over by university as an option, as I loved the environment, I thought the course sounded terrific, and it definitely seemed like a course and uni I could settle into nicely. I got an unconditional offer from Cheltenham, and I was very pleased indeed. However, many of my sixth form teachers were once again unimpressed with my choice, saying that I should have been “aiming higher than a non-RG university with BBC entry requirements”. Russell Group unis were heavily pushed to me, and some teachers even encouraged me to apply to Oxbridge. With that in mind, I do still feel a bit bad about the fact I picked Gloucestershire as my uni of choice, as I can tell some of my teachers were disappointed in me for doing so. From a personal standpoint, I am glad that I applied to a more casual, lower strung university as my firm choice, as I ultimately got worse A Level grades than many of my teachers predicted (A*AC were my final A Levels, whereas all my teachers targeted me at As and A*s for reasons I’m not entirely sure of… as I said in a previous post, I struggled a fair bit with Maths and Physics and didn’t exactly get consistently brilliant grades while studying either subject, so I was a bit confused by my sky high target grades in those subjects), and I did initially struggle with the university study style even at the uni I went to, but I have grown to enjoy the university I go to and feel very comfortable there.

But before I go off on too much of a tangent (as you can probably see, I’m terrible for that…); yes, university (or to be more specific, Russell Group and Oxbridge university) is very heavily emphasised in sixth form nowadays, so I wouldn’t be surprised if that has contributed to more and more employers requiring degrees as a prerequisite to working with them.

 

[Jb85]

As an accountant I can only say now important maths is. Not just in the financiL sector, but engineering, design, running your own business, trades. The list goes on.

The higher level skillset the country has in this the better in my opinion.

Therefore I vote yes.

 

[Raza]

Having been an English teacher at GCSE and A level for a number of years and also studied A level Maths, Literature and Language I can definitely say no to this.

Similar to what others have said, the step from GCSE to A level is still very large. I failed Maths A level even after getting an A at GCSE and spending countless hours revising. As for English A level, even teachers find it difficult to teach, especially Language. A lot of the skills at GCSE are not transferable to A level. Language becomes more of a science and Literature requires understanding of theory.

Edit: just had to recheck my grammar, the irony

 

[Tim]

As an accountant I can only say now important maths is. Not just in the financiL sector, but engineering, design, running your own business, trades. The list goes on.

The higher level skillset the country has in this the better in my opinion.

Therefore I vote yes.

But what about English?

I can agree with you on Maths as it's the reason I chose to continue with it. Is English really important enough that we all need to learn about different literary works and grammar structure to an academic level?

I'd argue not but can anyone make an argument for it?

 

[Jb85]

But what about English?

I can agree with you on Maths as it's the reason I chose to continue with it. Is English really important enough that we all need to learn about different literary works and grammar structure to an academic level?

I'd argue not but can anyone make an argument for it?

Hmmmm English. That's a tough one.

I think and believe a minimum standard is required. If perhaps you haven't achieved that when you move on to A levels maybe top up qualification should be enforced

 

[John_P]

I just don't see how this would work, when I went to Sixth Form you needed to have gained a specific grade at GCSE to be allowed to do subjects you want to do.

So you'd be having to find teachers to teach A level English and Maths to kids who a) want nothing to do with these subjects and/or b) aren't good enough to deal with the subject matter.

Really sad to see politicians trying to claim degrees that don't immediately mean you'll get a higher paid job apparently means there worthless and should be gotten rid of. What's happened to wanting an education because the subject interests you?

Suppose under these plans they'll be scrapping teaching and nursing degrees as those don't seem to be high paying jobs, or even respected professions currently.

 

[NuttySquirrel]

Hell no, what a ghastly idea.

Education should not be obligatory after the age of 16, at least not the sort that involves sitting at a desk crunching numbers or writing pointless essays about poetry.

I found maths excruciating and put about three times as much blood, sweat and tears (lots of those!) into getting a decent GCSE maths grade than for any other subject (much later in life I've begun to suspect I may have dyscalculia as I have such a mental block about simple sums even now). It just doesn't suit everyone, and pupils that struggle don't get the additional support they need through mainstream schooling. I was fortunate that my dad had a maths background and was able to tutor me through; not everyone has this skill or can afford to pay for a private tutor for a struggling teen.

Also English? What a waste of that time that was. I had already learned English by the time I was six. I didn't need to spend the next 10 years of my life reading boring pointless plays and short stories I had absolutely no interest in and then trying to analyse what this or that long-dead author might have been trying to say (who cares?). Literature should just be for enjoyment, studying it at school sucked all the pleasure out of it for me. You don't even learn anything vaguely useful about the English language like its origins or correct spelling or grammar - as a result we've now ended up with adverts for UNMISSIABLE events like 'The Dragron Slayer' and a culture of 'no one cares if it's wrong anyway'.

 

[WillPS]

As an accountant I can only say now important maths is. Not just in the financiL sector, but engineering, design, running your own business, trades. The list goes on.

The higher level skillset the country has in this the better in my opinion.

Therefore I vote yes.

I don't think there's any disagreement that Maths is a fundamental - I'd be interested to know which parts of A-Level maths you feel is neccessary for those professions or your own though.

I'm an engineer (of sorts) and I've never needed anything more complicated than what I was already fluent in by about Year 9.

 

[JAperson]

As an accountant I can only say now important maths is. Not just in the financiL sector, but engineering, design, running your own business, trades. The list goes on.

The higher level skillset the country has in this the better in my opinion.

Therefore I vote yes.

Well people who want to be an accountant can take maths, but why should we force it on people? I was miserable enough when I didn't pass my maths GCSE (I didn't take my exam because of COVID, it was teacher assessed grades) and I had to retake in November 2020 to which I then passed. The foundation maths GCSE is too hard, make the students who want to be an accountant do higher GCSE and go on to do it at A level, but I think with my current maths education I can do everything I'd need to in almost all real world jobs.

 

[Jb85]

Well people who want to be an accountant can take maths, but why should we force it on people? I was miserable enough when I didn't pass my maths GCSE (I didn't take my exam because of COVID, it was teacher assessed grades) and I had to retake in November 2020 to which I then passed. The foundation maths GCSE is too hard, make the students who want to be an accountant do higher GCSE and go on to do it at A level, but I think with my current maths education I can do everything I'd need to in almost all real world jobs.

Trust me nobody wants to be an accountant.....

It's a personal opinion more than anything

 

[JAperson]

Trust me nobody wants to be an accountant.....

It's a personal opinion more than anything

Yeah of course and I respect your opinion but completely disagree.

 

[Matt.GC]

Why does this "use it in the real world" argument keep cropping up from a thread full of people far more educated than me?

I thought that was just an argument that thick people like me used as an excuse for delivering dog crap grades?

I thought it was common knowledge amongst you lot in the educated classes that grades and degrees are educational bling to get good jobs with rather than actually being useful. In my experience I haven't used anything I've formally learnt since primary school in a work environment. As soon as I could read, write, use a calculator and spot someone trying to pull the wool over my eyes (the latter was not a skill I learnt until after I left school entirely) then I was good to go.

Not that I'm trying to set a bad example though. Stay in School Kids!

 

[Matt N]

Why does this "use it in the real world" argument keep cropping up from a thread full of people far more educated than me?

I thought that was just an argument that thick people like me used as an excuse for delivering dog crap grades?

I thought it was common knowledge amongst you lot in the educated classes that grades and degrees are educational bling to get good jobs with rather than actually being useful. In my experience I haven't used anything I've formally learnt since primary school in a work environment. As soon as I could read, write, use a calculator and spot someone trying to pull the wool over my eyes (the latter was not a skill I learnt until after I left school entirely) then I was good to go.

Not that I'm trying to set a bad example though. Stay in School Kids!

I think it very much depends what field you go into. If you become an engineer, for instance, I’d imagine that much of the more complex Maths and Physics skills you learn at A Level and degree level are very much needed.

Other fields might not lean on the degree level knowledge so much.

In general, though, I was always told that degrees are seen as the “leap off the diving board” into the professional world that companies want to see from employees. They change you from a student into someone who genuinely has all the skills to work in that field.

 

[Matt.GC]

I think it very much depends what field you go into. If you become an engineer, for instance, I’d imagine that much of the more complex Maths and Physics skills you learn at A Level and degree level are very much needed.

Other fields might not lean on the degree level knowledge so much.

In general, though, I was always told that degrees are seen as the “leap off the diving board” into the professional world that companies want to see from employees. They change you from a student into someone who genuinely has all the skills to work in that field.

Like all learning, they show application. They show that your brain is wired in such a way that you can learn what they can teach you. There's a number of claims in this thread that the stuff you learn in education isn't actually used. That's true in most cases, but I thought that was a school failure argument, not a case the educated classes usually make! I'm not sure if I find it refreshing or confusing?

Don't get me wrong, I want my Doctor to know everything there is to know about the human body, I want my chemist to have a masters in chemistry and I want the teachers who teach my kids to know everything there is to know about what they're teaching them. But for the most part, a formal education is a proof of acedemic achievement more than anything. That in itself makes it attractive to employers rather than the ins and outs of what you actually learnt.

I don't know who told you the diving board analogy. If that's the case, then a did a run, fell off it and did a cannonball into the pool like the John Smith's advert. Only certain employers want to see that from their employees. Some for the right reasons, some due to snobbery. But at the end of the day, what employers want to see the most out of their employees more than anything is and employees ability to make them money.

I've fallen fowl of the fact I'm uneducated many a time. I've been overlooked and sidelined and did everything the hard way, hence the regrets. But at the end of the day, 9/10 (this is an actual figure quoted on a conference call) of degree apprentices my employer takes on drop out in the first 2 years and if I'm honest, there's now a bit of a stigma attached to them. We're all still here. We're all here because A. We're trapped because without qualifications we have no where else to go to earn anywhere near the same money and B. They can't replace us with anyone else. They need us, we need them.

Like I said, the killer app will always be a good education backed up by a hard work ethic and experience. If I had my time again, I'd definitely ensure I had the former. My advice to any young person would be get some grades behind you but don't be complacent and think you'll "leap" into the professional world by default because you won't. Employers don't want you unless you can prove you're able to make the board and the shareholders stinking rich.

 

[rob666]

You have fallen foul of the fact Matt.
Every day a school day!
Me, banking qualification, degree, social work qualification, primary teaching certificate.
Overqualified part time gardener.

Education is fun if you enjoy the topic.
If you stay in education until 18, you should have GCSE Maths and English, or have to take them again.
No need for a levels in such topics, different kettle of fish.
All under 18's need to be doing something constructive or educational, even if just volunteering.

 

[Tim]

Degrees have a lot less weight behind them than they used too. Ever since staying in further education became the default option after completing GCSEs and A Levels the claim that taking these to show you have drive and a commitment to learn has all but vanished. I remember really struggling to find work the year after I graduated because I was overqualified for the basic jobs and lacking experience for the jobs I studied for. I was about 5 years into my career before my degree became relevant.
That's why I recommend higher education but also to get some real working experience alongside it. The work will get your foot in the door. and I guess that's why people who took the educational route now wish they were taught more 'real world' skills at school as well.