TBC: SW9 Speculation

[rob666]

But sometimes, no matter what you do in altering the plan, permission is refused.
Getting around issues like noise and visual intrusion sometimes is so expensive it just stops the thing happening.

 

[ChristmasPud]

Maybe yes, but still you have recent cases of planning being refused, like Legoland's haunted house, where it got refused first try (to do with traffic if I think). Then Merlin completely redesigned it (costly) and resubmitted it, it got made. And this was one case where there were plenty of less complex/expensive areas of the park to build a madhouse than half on a lake.

It's a valid point but I think it's just being a little overstated. Most the cancelled coasters in the Merlin parks' history were withdrawn, not refused planning permission. So all that development (the expensive part of planning) has effectively been wasted many times over.

Thanks to Towers Street's nice article on this, you can see the general development area covers most the major ride areas anyway, so really this shouldnt be too much a problem for Alton Towers' future. But still the cross valley coaster would have done an incredible job opening up the far back of the park.

Of course it's possible that the valley coaster would have never happened anyway, but who knows, it never got to assessment.

 

[DiogoJ42]

Wait, so Legoland's madhouse was refused because of traffic concerns... they redesigned it, and it was green lit...

... So what I take away from that is, they were essentially told,
"You can't build this, it's TOO GOOD! People might actually want to visit your park for it!"
They then slashed the budget and made it the shoddy mess we have now, and that was aproved because it was crap enough that no one would care.

...

The world we live in sickens me.

 

[Prophecy]

Wait, so Legoland's madhouse was refused because of traffic concerns... they redesigned it, and it was green lit...

... So what I take away from that is, they were essentially told,
"You can't build this, it's TOO GOOD! People might actually want to visit your park for it!"
They then slashed the budget and made it the shoddy mess we have now, and that was aproved because it was crap enough that no one would care.

...

The world we live in sickens me.

The concern for Ghost was that it would increase numbers, and hence increase traffic, yes.

After Ghost was rejected, the park installed Mia's (something which didn't need planning permission since it's effectively a temporary structure/attraction and can be removed at any moment if the council tell the park to). Mia's received little marketing attention, and the park's visitor numbers did not increase (I believe they stayed the same).

The park then used this to go to the council and say "Look, we installed a new ride and it didn't affect numbers or traffic, so we can install bigger rides yes?". The council had no grounds to refuse an application from that perspective and the park could go ahead.

Obviously they went for Ninjago instead, and then have gone for Haunted House. Why they didn't still go for Ghost is a mystery, but I reckon it's because of some of the issues Merlin have had with mini drop tower rides in the past, and have decided to avoid them from now.

 

[CoasterMadMatt]

Completely off topic but I thought the original plan for Lego's ghost was going to be a near replica of the Billund version and was rejected on those grounds being as it was a mini enclosed drop tower, then the revised plan is what we got, a mad house instead.

As for SW9, to be honest as long as it's good I don't mind what it is but, I do wish they'd do a mini Wuze Town area on the old coaster corner site, dress it up to look like part of the towers shouldn't be as much as a blot on the landscape as rides being seen as at least it's enclosed and looks like the towers (also the Flag Tower is getting harder to see in the summer these days due to the village) . I know it'd never happen due to the cost but one can dream

 

[ChristmasPud]

Completely off topic but I thought the original plan for Lego's ghost was going to be a near replica of the Billund version and was rejected on those grounds being as it was a mini enclosed drop tower, then the revised plan is what we got, a mad house instead.

Yeah, that was the original design, other than that it was same location and planning, just different building design to contain a madhouse rather than a drop tower. It was refused over traffic, the planning authority had no say over the design so it wasnt the madhouse that got it approved.

I do wish they'd do a mini Wuze Town area on the old coaster corner site, dress it up to look like part of the towers shouldn't be as much as a blot on the landscape as rides being seen as at least it's enclosed and looks like the towers (also the Flag Tower is getting harder to see in the summer these days due to the village) . I know it'd never happen due to the cost but one can dream

There's something about that area that means it will probably never be permitted for development. Anyone know the full reasons why?

Coaster Corner never actually had planning permission to be there, which is why Tussauds had to remove it when they bought the park. Even now the only structures there are temporary structures as far as I know.

 

[Alsty]

Isn't Coaster Corner the nearest area to Alton village, and therefore the most sensitive in terms of noise etc?

 

[alee298]

Correct, if SW9 were in coaster corner it would have to be an indoor ride for noise reasons. There are easier places planning permission wise for a new ride, Also costs of a big warehouse might make it less worth it.

 

[ChristmasPud]

Also costs of a big warehouse might make it less worth it.

A coaster is generally more expensive than a dark ride, although a solid family dark ride is what Alton Towers needs most now I think. Problem is they already have the Dungeons next door.

You know a themed indoor coaster would be fantastic in that area to bring a bigger draw and something great for families. This has been really missing since Black Hole I think

 

[Alsty]

Something like Arthur would be cool but it ain't gonna happen... Too much £££.

 

[Kraken27]

Correct, if SW9 were in coaster corner it would have to be an indoor ride for noise reasons. There are easier places planning permission wise for a new ride, Also costs of a big warehouse might make it less worth it.

I'm not convinced on that one! If you knew what it cost to do the blasting / precision excavation required for Nemesis, Oblivion & Air - all of a sudden a large noise-insulated steel warehouse looks very cheap by comparison. Coaster Corner is relatively flat land, so very minimal excavations needed to level a large base, pour the concrete, then erect a steel warehouse. (NB: There is a drop in the land level to the back of the former Beast site heading towards the back of the Burger Kitchen, but compared to Nemesis, Oblivion & Air this is nothing).

 

[Dave]

Coaster corner also sits close to the Iron Age hill fort so I think they worry about the archeology in that area.

 

[Kraken27]

I thought the Bunbury Hillfort remains were more in the woods between Oblivion & the Flag Tower?

Given the way Coaster Corner was developed in the Broome era (with planning permission being temporary / questionable), I would have thought that any remains in the previous Mouse / Beast site area (or the lower level carpark behind the Beast site towards the Burger Kitchen have long been concreted over - not that this is any excuse). The closer part of Coaster Corner that was, from the Beast site towards the former Twirling Toadstool site has been used as a Cleansing Services (or whatever they call themselves now) storage area / tip for years.

If you look at major projects like Crossrail (ignore the delays!) they got permission to dig up bubonic plague burial sites in London, as long as the archeologists were given time to do their work before the concrete poured. They were also allowed to dig / tunnel very close to Grade 2 / Grade 1 listed buildings, as long as laser monitoring was in place to detect more than the slightest building movement. Admittedly, Crossrail is a huge government sponsored infrastructure project for the capital city of the UK. SW9 is not quite in the same league.

 

[ChristmasPud]

Anyway I'm sure the various people hired for planning like this will have it all in hand and know the full details. The main thing is there will surely be a solution for the park to develop into one area or another. It's not like it's just inevitable that it has to sit and stagnate now because of planning.

Even with all these complicated factors in play, if Merlin wanted to invest in something long term for the park then they would find a way to make it work, and can afford it. Having said that, I agree Alton Towers doesnt need another new coaster as its next big thing.

 

[Matt.GC]

I don't understand the concept of Towers need to ”extend". The park is massive and sparse. A coaster becomes tricky due to the footprint but they simply don't need another one. Replacement in a few years, possibly, but not an addition.

If it's a water, flat, dark or ride or any other attarction, there are plenty of options within the current park footage. There's tonnes of room in CCL to do wonderful things with flats and darks. There's room in DF, FV and XS for flats or other attractions. They can even do things in KC if they wanted to.

There's no need to destroy protected views, the gardens, listed buildings, ancient monuments, the Ropers front living room or any other metaphorical Indian burial ground to produce world leading attractions. It's the will to build anything other than a coaster that's lacking, not planning or space restrictions.

 

[Dave]

I don't understand the concept of Towers need to ”extend". The park is massive and sparse. A coaster becomes tricky due to the footprint but they simply don't need another one. Replacement in a few years, possibly, but not an addition.

If it's a water, flat, dark or ride or any other attarction, there are plenty of options within the current park footage. There's tonnes of room in CCL to do wonderful things with flats and darks. There's room in DF, FV and XS for flats or other attractions. They can even do things in KC if they wanted to.

There's no need to destroy protected views, the gardens, listed buildings, ancient monuments, the Ropers front living room or any other metaphorical Indian burial ground to produce world leading attractions. It's the will to build anything other than a coaster that's lacking, not planning or space restrictions.

I think everyone agrees that the priority for towers is not a major coaster but flat rides and water rides.

The topic for this discussion though is specifically about SW9. This does box things into a Roller coaster or other major ride hardware acquisition.

 

[Matt.GC]

I think everyone agrees that the priority for towers is not a major coaster but flat rides and water rides.

The topic for this discussion though is specifically about SW9. This does box things into a Roller coaster or other major ride hardware acquisition.

Hence the emphasis on "any other attraction".

 

[Jb85]

I am sure we will get a coaster whilst merlin are around. Apart from another thrill coaster (they need an air time machine) the lineup is pretty good.

Merlin will go down the coaster route as it’s easier to market. They have also had some bad experiences with dark rides. They will never buy and install a batch of flats in one go either. Nothing stopping them doing this other than the ability to market the ride and the effect it has on the share price.

Hopefully with new potential owners they may look at things slightly different. The park desperately needs a flat or two in each of the larger areas

 

[Sauron97]

Exactly. It's been brought up time and time again, and rightly so. Can you imagine them opting for for experience led attractions over yet another coaster? It's not even a question really. From what I've heard about the Dungeon, and from what I've seen of the outside, I just can't imagine Merlin coming out with some effectively planned dark ride or indoor water ride. It's not even the issue of following through the masterplan referred to above, it's the actual design phase where the problems seem to come in nearly every time.

Merlin will go down the coaster route as it’s easier to market. They have also had some bad experiences with dark rides. They will never buy and install a batch of flats in one go either.

I agree. Then Alton Towers will cease to be a theme park and go down the Six Flags route.

Hopefully with new potential owners they may look at things slightly different. The park desperately needs a flat or two in each of the larger areas

Of course yeah, but they need to look at things with a major difference. As in they need to completely change the way all projects including SW9 are planned and remove the Merlin HQ interference, and really the entire park needs a complete change in long term direction. It's a shame as there's so many areas to work with, and with a dark ride you can pretty much factor out the noise restrictions too. SW9 as a dark ride would work so well, but here we are .

Also, can we make a Haunted House based off the ropers old home? Or that pottery factory one of them owned that got noise complaints from people next door (ha!)

 

[elliott]

I am sure we will get a coaster whilst merlin are around. Apart from another thrill coaster (they need an air time machine) the lineup is pretty good.

Merlin will go down the coaster route as it’s easier to market. They have also had some bad experiences with dark rides. They will never buy and install a batch of flats in one go either. Nothing stopping them doing this other than the ability to market the ride and the effect it has on the share price.

Hopefully with new potential owners they may look at things slightly different. The park desperately needs a flat or two in each of the larger areas

I think a flat will be something they could easily add as a “new for season” when there’s no SW or any other development