TBC: SW9 Speculation

[Benjsh]

Even if Towers could install a dark ride on the scale of symbolica I doubt it would bring in the punters a new thrill coaster does.

 

[tayspru]

Even if Towers could install a dark ride on the scale of symbolica I doubt it would bring in the punters a new thrill coaster does.

However , what the park needs is not a spike in attendance, but sustained growth. Many families simply don’t return when they realise how little there is to do *as a family* , this problem has got worse since the removal of Charlie and the Flume as they were both great all family attractions. GG for example may not cause a spike in attendance, but it will definitely encourage families to return as there is more that everyone can do together than before. If you don’t ride coasters, which *many* people and families don’t, you’re left with not a lot of interest at Towers

 

[DistortAMG]

The thing is all the SW's have been coasters and there has been major investments that are not SW's. If this was going to happen (which I hope it will at some point although I doubt it after Darren Brown) they would likely use some other code name and advertising system. Like you say though they will probably want something with a guaranteed return on investment which is not necessarily going to happen with something like a dark ride.

Name me one major investment since 2005, with a budget on par with a SW, that was not a coaster. Name me one...…I will wait. Bearing in mind we are talking strictly about AT here.

 

[jon81uk]

The thing is all the SW's have been coasters and there has been major investments that are not SW's. If this was going to happen (which I hope it will at some point although I doubt it after Darren Brown) they would likely use some other code name and advertising system. Like you say though they will probably want something with a guaranteed return on investment which is not necessarily going to happen with something like a dark ride.

Although the topic of the thread is SW9 I don't think @DistortAMG was stating that SW9 should be non-coaster, just the next major investment.

I agree, they need to replace Charlie & the Choc factory in the parks line-up and get a decent family dark ride in.

 

[Benjsh]

However , what the park needs is not a spike in attendance, but sustained growth. Many families simply don’t return when they realise how little there is to do *as a family* , this problem has got worse since the removal of Charlie and the Flume as they were both great all family attractions. GG for example may not cause a spike in attendance, but it will definitely encourage families to return as there is more that everyone can do together than before. If you don’t ride coasters, which *many* people and families don’t, you’re left with not a lot of interest at Towers

That's a fair point and I totally agree.

However they don't have endless supplies of money and any dark ride anything close to the scale of symbolica would basically be the same budget or more than a world class coaster. That's the way they will look at it too.

The SW projects will forever be coaster projects I would have thought.

 

[DistortAMG]

Although the topic of the thread is SW9 I don't think @DistortAMG was stating that SW9 should be non-coaster, just the next major investment.

I agree, they need to replace Charlie & the Choc factory in the parks line-up and get a decent family dark ride in.

Exactly that, so use the budget which would be scheduled for the next SW and build something else with it instead. A high budget, ambitious non coaster attraction. Something Alton really really lacks. The place is not far off being Coaster Towers as it is.

Share holders are no longer in the picture, so short term gain and short sharp spikes in attendance should be back burned for long term sustainable growth, with attractions reflecting that. That is what an experienced owner would do anyway, as that is what they already do around the world.

 

[Steve74]

The pre-show in the queue sets it up that Hermione has made the benches fly. Guests are definitely on benches for FJ.

I think Hagrids would have benefitted from having all seats motorbikes maybe (I haven't ridden yet due to pandemic) but I also get that not all guests would be able to be seated in that way.

Ah fair enough, not been on it since 2013 and I was probably so in awe at the theming of the queue line that I never paid attention to the preshow!

 

[tayspru]

That's a fair point and I totally agree.

However they don't have endless supplies of money and any dark ride anything close to the scale of symbolica would basically be the same budget or more than a world class coaster. That's the way they will look at it too.

The SW projects will forever be coaster projects I would have thought.

There is still no confirmation that the next major project will even be an SW project. I truly hope that with the change of ownership and the renewed interest in guest experience, someone will see the patently obvious fact that none of Towers coasters urgently need replacing, and that they don't need another coaster when other attractions are sorely lacking. Despite all its flaws, GG clearly demonstrates an appetite for story based family attractions.

 

[JAperson]

Exactly that, so use the budget which would be scheduled for the next SW and build something else with it instead. A high budget, ambitious non coaster attraction. Something Alton really really lacks. The place is not far off being Coaster Towers as it is.

Share holders are no longer in the picture, so short term gain and short sharp spikes in attendance should be back burned for long term sustainable growth, with attractions reflecting that. That is what an experienced owner would do anyway, as that is what they already do around the world.

I apologise I thought you meant as a SW. This is entirely possible as for this:

Name me one major investment since 2005, with a budget on par with a SW, that was not a coaster. Name me one...…I will wait. Bearing in mind we are talking strictly about AT here.

then there isn't one however if you take Merlin as a whole there was Darren Brown so you've caught me out. I am always happy to be proven wrong when I am wrong.

However , what the park needs is not a spike in attendance, but sustained growth. Many families simply don’t return when they realise how little there is to do *as a family* , this problem has got worse since the removal of Charlie and the Flume as they were both great all family attractions. GG for example may not cause a spike in attendance, but it will definitely encourage families to return as there is more that everyone can do together than before. If you don’t ride coasters, which *many* people and families don’t, you’re left with not a lot of interest at Towers

I agree with this however companies need meditate return however this may not be so evident in private merlin as they can play the long game. I suppose this was the main difference with private and public companies and particularly Merlin. I hope Merlin do start to think like this as Alton Towers should be able to attract significantly more people than its does.
Edit: I just wanted to make clear that I am in support of a big non coaster ride for the families at Alton Towers but that I think an SW will likely come first as it has likely already been planned and likely will reflect the way public Merlin worked as it would have been designed to suite there plans. I imagine the SW will be delayed due to COVID however I am sure that something non-coaster but large will come at some point.

 

[Matt.GC]

I think we usually end up in the same place over and over with this thread and that's that when we chew the fat it becomes clear that as much as everyone is looking forward to a new SW coaster, it's hard to justify a reason why they would build one at the moment.

This is different to how these discussions normally go in the past because of the predicament the park has now compared to the past. When I was growing up, I could take my younger siblings, my dad and my nan on the Rapids, RMT, Haunted House, Around the World/Toyland, the Log Flume, Pirate Ship/Blade, Wave/Ug Swinger/Toadstool, the Swans, catch a show and do many other things together. The Beast and The Black Hole also had reasonable height restrictions, the latter was also indoors. So a large new expensive thrill coaster would only have made the park even better under those circumstances.

Now, taking a family to Towers is logistically taxing. School age kids won't want to go anywhere near Cbeebies but there's not alot for preschoolers to do outside that area even if there is alot for them to do within it. Grandparents and some parents won't want to go on the plethora of thrill coasters. Forbidden Valley, X Sector and Dark Forest have almost bugger all to keep kids under 1.2mtr tall entertained. When it rains (like it does alot in the UK) you only have the brightly lit warehouse interior tour that used to be a Haunted House, GG, Sharkbait, Hex (if your younger kid will go on it) or sitting miserably inside one of the small selection of eatery's to choose from.

Taking a family of various age groups and heights consists of either splitting up into 2 or 3 different groups at opposite ends of the park for the large majority of the day, bored kids waiting by ride exits of big coasters with parents taking it in turns to ride, or sitting on Squirrel Nutty with the little ones whilst your frustrated 10 year old reminds you that Nemesis at the other end of the park has a walk on queue.

The strategy of the last decade of papering over the ever widening cracks by just throwing millions at 1 big new coaster project every few years has run its course and is typical of PLC Merlin short term thinking. It's created the secular park we've been left with today. I'm hoping with the new, unforseen and somewhat inconsistent approach and focus on guest experience we've seen so far this season that they know this. But there's many things that also lead me to assume that I don't even think the new Merlin know what they want and what to do at the moment.

 

[Maelstrom]

While I think there are other Non coasters rides that should be built before the next coaster to fix gaps in the parks line up, ie some more family based rides. Following discussion about airtime in the Wickerman thread. I think the next coaster should really focus on Airtime as this is something that I thinks missing in the parks lineup. They could achieve this with the parts restrictions with a launched Intamin Blitz, Launched mack coaster or an RMC.

On another note I think if the park hadn't already got a spinning coaster, they would have considered a Mack Extreme spinner. Its exactly the style of ride I could easily see the park going for, with them being able to push as UK's first extreme spinning coaster, and could easily fit within the parks height restrictions. However with Spinball and even if they remove it before hand, I can't see them going for one now.

 

[JAperson]

While I think there are other Non coasters rides that should be built before the next coaster to fix gaps in the parks line up. Following discussion about airtime in the Wickerman thread. I think the next coaster should really focus on Airtime as this is something that I thinks missing in the parks lineup. They could achieve this with the parts restrictions with a launched Intamin Blitz, Launched mack coaster or an RMC.

I agree the next coaster should focus on airtime wether it will be one of the options you have mentioned I don't know. If they could get the permission I could see something like a cross-valley mini hyper probably from B&M. With John Wardley being spotted in both Forbidden Valley and Dark Forest the other month it sort of makes sense. I could see this happening.

On another note I think if the park hadn't already got a spinning coaster, they would have considered a Mack Extreme spinner. Its exactly the style of ride I could easily see the park going for, with them being able to push as UK's first extreme spinning coaster, and could easily fit within the parks height restrictions. However with Spinball and even if they remove it before hand, I can't see them going for one now.

Since they released these I have always thought one would work better at Thorpe. Imagine something like the tallest, fastest and loopiest spinning coaster. Sounds perfect for Merlin doesn't it?

 

[Maelstrom]

I agree the next coaster should focus on airtime wether it will be one of the options you have mentioned I don't know. If they could get the permission I could see something like a cross-valley mini hyper probably from B&M. With John Wardley being spotted in both Forbidden Valley and Dark Forest the other month it sort of makes sense. I could see this happening.

Since they released these I have always thought one would work better at Thorpe. Imagine something like the tallest, fastest and loopiest spinning coaster. Sounds perfect for Merlin doesn't it?[/

Yes they could install one at Thorpe, however I think their next coaster will be something that is much cheaper, more like an CGI wooden coaster replacing the log flume.

While I would love a cross valley B&M hyper I just can't see it happening anytime soon, the cost would be fairly substantial, while cheaper than an normal hyper due to not needing the supports for a 200-300ft high ride, the ride is still an expensive model and ground works would certainly add up. Plus there is then the planning issues, although possibly easier than a wooden coaster as has been seen by some of the newer B&M gigas/hypers they use alot less supports now, due to track design, meaning less issues with groundwork/tree removal. Still can't see it happening anytime soon

 

[JAperson]

Yes they could install one at Thorpe, however I think their next coaster will be something that is much cheaper, more like an CGI wooden coaster replacing the log flume.

While I would love a cross valley B&M hyper I just can't see it happening anytime soon, the cost would be fairly substantial, while cheaper than an normal hyper due to not needing the supports for a 200-300ft high ride, the ride is still an expensive model and ground works would certainly add up. Plus there is then the planning issues, although possibly easier than a wooden coaster as has been seen by some of the newer B&M gigas/hypers they use alot less supports now, due to track design, meaning less issues with groundwork/tree removal. Still can't see it happening anytime soon

You make two very fair points. Merlin are always a bit unpredictable with there investments. They often get builk deals from B&M. They had raptor, swarm and fluck de Diamonen. They also had Oblivion the black hole and krake. So could we see a new influx of B&M or even Mack rides coasters into Merlin parks.
What about the new B&M surf model, surely that could be on the table for Alton?

 

[Maelstrom]

You make two very fair points. Merlin are always a bit unpredictable with there investments. They often get builk deals from B&M. They had raptor, swarm and fluck de Diamonen. They also had Oblivion the black hole and krake. So could we see a new influx of B&M or even Mack rides coasters into Merlin parks.
What about the new B&M surf model, surely that could be on the table for Alton?

All depends on what the Surf coaster model actual is! I still think though it will be a good few years before we see the next major coaster, more likely 2025. With a coaster planned for Chessington in 2023, I think Thorpe will get one in 2024 and then Alton in 2025. Hopefully though they then use the 2022/23/24 seasons to fix some of the other gaps, with new flat rides, retheme of the dungeons and addition of other attractions in the the David Walliams area and other park wide ride refurbs.

 

[JAperson]

All depends on what the Surf coaster model actual is! I still think though it will be a good few years before we see the next major coaster, more likely 2025. With a coaster planned for Chessington in 2023, I think Thorpe will get one in 2024 and then Alton in 2025. Hopefully though they then use the 2022/23/24 seasons to fix some of the other gaps, with new flat rides, retheme of the dungeons and addition of other attractions in the the David Walliams area and other park wide ride refurbs.

I hope you are right. I think Merlin/Alton have released that they need to be 'The Uk's answer to Disneyland' again. They need shows, filler rides and proper upkeep. They need to return to the old Alton Towers before the incident. IF they do that guest numbers should continue to rise which means higher budgets for the park. Surely Merlin see Alton Towers as there flagship and now being private, Merlin has the ability to spend more for less direct results.

I agree with the timing for the UK Merlin parks as well. 2025 seems reasonable to me however they may switch Alton and Thorpe round and have Alton in 2024 due to it being certain to get a return while Thorpe is less so. I think whatever Thorpe gets it will be cheap like a GCI.

 

[s_g_k]

I assume we would have seen planning applications by now if work was starting next year for a 2023 opening, so I think it’s looking like a 2024 addition at the earliest. I personally think the park needs to sort out lots of issues before work starts on SW9: Duel refurb, the addition of permanent flats, the reopening of the theatre in TWoDW in some form or another and the scrapping of the Dungeons. Just turn it into a gory horrible history style dark ride for families to enjoy. Those would be my priorities before starting groundwork on SW9.

 

[Ethan]

I assume we would have seen planning applications by now if work was starting next year for a 2023 opening, so I think it’s looking like a 2024 addition at the earliest. I personally think the park needs to sort out lots of issues before work starts on SW9: Duel refurb, the addition of permanent flats, the reopening of the theatre in TWoDW in some form or another and the scrapping of the Dungeons. Just turn it into a gory horrible history style dark ride for families to enjoy. Those would be my priorities before starting groundwork on SW9.

I imagine we could see permanent flats next year to replace the retrosquad

 

[jon81uk]

scrapping of the Dungeons. Just turn it into a gory horrible history style dark ride for families to enjoy.

yes! A horrible histories dark ride would be perfect for Alton Towers!

 

[JAperson]

yes! A horrible histories dark ride would be perfect for Alton Towers!

I agree a horrible histories ride would be brilliant!