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The B&M vs Intamin thread

Th13teen I think does somewhat prove a lot of Intamin's faults. Some of the cocks ups they have done just come across as downright careless. I mean Th13teen is butter smooth, and they managed to engineer a great piece of tech for the drop. But they spoilt it by messing up a simple calculation of how fast the train would hit lift 2. I mean seriously?! What if they'd done that to a break run? It'd be a disaster! It's a foolish mistake which was somehow allowed to be constructed, and then resulted in a bodge job to fix the damn thing. Then there was the whole lapbar sensor palarva which again seems like they were being a bit careless.

That's not to say B&M aren't without faults sometimes, like the Air flight arm, followed by B&M apparently saying "Oh. We thought that might happen..." But in retrospect that was on a prototype model which was a whole new approach to the format. At least they still got the track and train sums correct and were able to fix it without ruining the rest of the ride :p

I do still sort of feel sorry for new Vekoma. It seems they're trying really hard, but they never will quite shake this old image they have. Ben 10 is a fantastic piece of engineering. It's butter smooth for one thing, and it has a real look and feel f quality about it. I do wish more smaller parks would take up the Junior Boomerang. It's a solid little family coaster. I'd love to try Battlestar Galactica to see how that runs in comparison to their older rides. I've heard a lot of very positive reviews about the new SLC design. Hopefully when Disney get the new SMII trains in service we'll see Vekoma start to resurface in some form.
 
Ian said:
I do still sort of feel sorry for new Vekoma. It seems they're trying really hard, but they never will quite shake this old image they have. Ben 10 is a fantastic piece of engineering. It's butter smooth for one thing, and it has a real look and feel f quality about it. I do wish more smaller parks would take up the Junior Boomerang. It's a solid little family coaster. I'd love to try Battlestar Galactica to see how that runs in comparison to their older rides. I've heard a lot of very positive reviews about the new SLC design. Hopefully when Disney get the new SMII trains in service we'll see Vekoma start to resurface in some form.
I like Vekoma's latest range of rides. Even their old Corkscrew models had a certain charm (or was that just the sound of the lift? :p ) Am I the only one that thinks Ben 10 is like a kiddie version of the Hulk, what with the indoor queue style and the green track? :p The only thing I don't like is their SLC's.
 
The reason Mack is currently my favourite company is because whatever the purchaser of one of their rides asks for is what they get. I suspect they probably could make a much more thrilling ride but they've never actually be asked for one. They are by default a family company, in every sense of the word.

Then I'd say B&M are my second favourite because they are amazing engineers but unlike Mack they don't seem to be as creative. Without guidance they will just go back to formula. (Please note by the word formula I'm not referring to cloning rides, if something's good why not clone it, but rides that feels the same as another even when they're not).
 
For me it is quite easily B&M. I always feel that we have it far better in Europe though when it comes to their rides. We've no two same rides, compare the differences between Black Mamba, Katun and OzIris for example or Daemonen and Superman de Acero. Same ride types, totally different kinds of roller coasters.

I always feel like Intamin are so desperate to get a sale, they will bow to a parks every whim. Rides like Maverick, or Intimidator are more extreme examples of this but there's also things like the restraint changes for Skyrush and Colossus. Whereas B&M will turn down a project if they don't feel like it is right/appropriate/safe.

Also.. I just find them a bit dreary. A company is more then just the good rides, you are only as good as your worst rollercoaster. Rides like Tornado and Furius Baco in Spain or the much loved, TPR favourite Expedition Ge Force are so much worse then their B&M counter parts in my opinion.

As for other companies, my top ten features a Vekoma as my number one and the wonderful Blue Fire. But I do think Maurer deserves some credit, Shock for example is barrels of fun, I like Abismo and when they do spinning rollercoasters well they are sublime.
 
I think the argument that Intamin haven't put that many "amazing" coasters into the UK is a valid one.

As has been said, we were spoiled by B&M for 8 years in the UK, with installations such as Nemesis (widely regarded as one of the best B&M coasters ever built), Oblivion (a first) and Air (a first). As much as Th13teen is a first, it is at the family end of the market rather than one of their thrill coasters. Aside from that, we ended up with Colossus and Rita, neither of which appear to have been maintained as well as they could have been, and both of which have been bettered.

iSpeed is a coaster which B&M could never match - at least not in the way the trains are so agile through each element, and the pacing throughout. Expedition Ge Force is also massively rated, indeed - it's regarded as one of the finest coasters in the world.

I think both are good at different things. Whilst Intamin is more of a risk, and their coasters seem to age less well than B&M's, they definitely seem more willing to take risks and try new concepts quicker. B&M, whilst they do innovate occasionally, are more unwilling and a definite safer bet.

:)
 
AstroDan said:
iSpeed is a coaster which B&M could never match - at least not in the way the trains are so agile through each element, and the pacing throughout. Expedition Ge Force is also massively rated, indeed - it's regarded as one of the finest coasters in the world.

I have to slightly disagree with that. I personally think that B&M have the more agile and impressive trains. The 1 row per car technique is a far superior way of producing coaster trains as it allows the designer to have a much faster level of rotation, which, if Intamin had done their sums right and had the right trains, would have allowed them to keep the heartline roll on Maverick.

The train design for B&M is what I think gives them such high regard, the trains are engineered to perfection allowing them to rotate, roll and pitch better than any other coaster train on the market at present. I think so far, only one other company has impressed me with nimble trains and that's Zierer with the Elevated Seating Trains. Whilst trains on rides like Blue Fire and Maverick are great examples of solid design work, to me they put too much load onto the rider when a smaller, just as efficient train can produce smoother results.

For example, a lot of modern B&Ms have Zero-G Rolls. Name a single Intamin ride that has one. I can't think of one. Especially one that runs two rows per car. Sure, heartline rolls are easy for Intamin, but that's because the level of rotation is constant and the level of rotation isn't tightened at a single point. On B&Ms the level of rotation is greater at the crest, which to me, is something trains by Intamin and Mack cannot do.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love rides by Intamin, I just think they are being held back by their rolling stock. For example here's a list of other companies who are opting for a single row of seats per car:

Gerstlauer - Eurofighters
Zierer - Elevated Seating Coaster Trains
Rocky Mountain Coasters - New wooden coaster trains
Gravity Kraft - Timberliners
Great Coasters International - Millennium Flyers
Vekoma - The new 4 - across trains

I think the future of coaster engineering is more in the trains than the track. After all, Intamin are sure to be able to build smooth track, it's just that the trains are not good enough to run on them and suffer from shuffling, which is what is ripping the Voyage apart at Holiday World.

Okay, I've waffled on about trains a bit long now, so I'll go on to say who I think have the best package out of the less major manufacturers.

Zierer, hands down. I recently rode two of there Elevated Seated Coasters, one in Denmark at Legoland Billund and the one at Schwaben Park in Germany. The coasters were smooth as glass, the trains rode them with great speed and the overall ride was something that totally blew me away.

For example, Polar X-Plorer, a very much family / children's coaster had ejector airtime! I personally cannot think of another coaster like it for that age range. It was fantastic, the throughput was amazing and the whole coaster just screamed quality. I can see them building a lot more of these and I'd love to see one in the UK (I'm looking at you Paultons & Legoland).

I just think that although B&M and Intamin are great at what they do, that they both have there flaws. Intamin in it's poor train design and calculations and B&M in their lack of originality. I think they need to learn from each other, then we'll have some pretty amazing coasters coming out, but to me the world needs more Zierer, Gerstlauer and new Vekoma's!
 
While I don't think that anyone can disagree that of the two, B&M makes the best trains, it really depends what you mean by agile. The width and weight of B&M trains mean that they can't negotiate snappy transitions and rolls like the Intamin trains can, not that they would ever need to as they don't factor into B&M's layouts. As for Intamin trains negotiating zero g Rolls, I can't see why they couldn't as they cane manage barrel rolls fine.

I feel it's worth pointing out that some of Intamin's trains are actually alright. Their hyper and wooden coaster trains are great. It's their OTSRs which let them down.
 
For me B&M are by far the best coaster manufacturer out there when it comes to thrill rides. They constantly provide top quality smooth, thrilling and fun coasters. If you get a B&M you know that you are getting quality. The only other manufacturer you can really say that about it Mack but I'll come on to them later. Lots of people have said recently that B&M are not what they used to be, that they now just build force-less coasters that aren't very unique. I beg to differ on this. First of all when it opened back in April Oz'Iris was simply sublime, smooth yet thrilling and intense, as well as being fun. It is one of the best inverts that I have ever been on, and certainly better than Nemesis in my eyes. I know that they have changed the wheels since but on opening it was fantastic. Shambhala and Leviathon also look like top class thrill coasters, they may be a little short but that is more the fault of the parks than B&M. Manta is another example of B&M showing that they can still do intense, with the pretzel loop. I could go on with a few more coasters such as Hair Raiser at Ocean Park which looks interesting but I think my point on B&M is made.

Now Intamin. For me they are the second best coaster manufacturer. You cannot deny that they make world class coasters. They do however have flaws which is why for me they are not as good as B&M. Their over the shoulder restrains are awful in my opinion and have been used on rides that really do not need them. However Intamin do have some gems. I305 is brilliant and up there fighting for my number one coaster spot. Ok they had to re-profile part of it but it is still a fantastically thrilling ride. For me it was intense, fun and had airtime. Both Maverick and iSpeed look like brilliant coasters. Skyrush looks good and it would be fair to say that Intamin are the best when it comes to launch coasters, it seems to be something that they have really mastered. They also make damn good wooden coasters, El Toro is another coaster that is up there fighting for my number one spot, it's amazing. Another point on Intamin, they Mega-Lites look awesome and it would be great to see some more of them with unique layouts.

So Intamin and B&M are the best for me but all the other manufacturers are coming on leaps and bounds. Mack are quality. They build quality rides and are great fun and do make people smile. Blue Fire is sublime and I expect the other Mack Mega-Coasters being built to be equally good. Coasters like Blue Fire also show that Mack are prepared to move slightly more into the thrill market, it would be interesting to see what they could do with an all out thrill coaster.

Premier are a manufacturer that always seem to be forgotten. However in my eyes they constantly deliver quality. I have been on several of their coasters and they have all been great. Revenge of the Mummy we all know it a top class coaster dark ride. Then the Cedar Fair parks have some good Premiers; the clones of Flight of Fear and Backlot Stunt Coaster. Flight of Fear is a surprisingly good and thrilling dark coaster which is smooth, fast and has good inversions. Then Backlot Stunt Coaster is great as what it is, and it's surprisingly intense. It will be interesting to see how Premier do with Full Throttle at SFMM.

Gerstlauer are a manufacturer that have come a long way in the last few years I think. Their launch coasters such as Anubis and Lynet look great fun and I'm really looking forward to riding Anubis in a couple of weeks. SW7 is a massive project for Gerstlauer and for me will determine whether they can compete with the big boys as it were.

Maurer Söhne are a strange one, but I do quite like one. They've shown a lot of ambition with the likes of Shock and Hollywood Rip, Ride, Rocket. Freischütz at Bayern Park also looks like good fun. The Sky Loop is an interesting concept, and I do like the extended versions of it such as Abismo and Parque de Atracciones de Madrid; Premier copying this concept must mean that it is at least decent.

Finally onto Zierer. Up until this year they hadn't really done that much apart from some kids and family coasters, and their vertical launch coaster. But this year with Verbolten and to a lesser extent Polar Explorer they have really shown their intent. Being awarded the contract to build such a big coaster at a major theme park like BGW shows that they plan to compete with the likes of Intamin and it sounds like they've done a good job with it. They could be ones to watch in the future.

I've not mentioned Vekoma as they're really not done much recently. I would consider them as a big manufacturer but they really need to step up there game to keep up now.

So it's not all about B&M and Intamin even though they are in my eyes the two leaders in the market. All the other manufactures are becoming more innovative and it is giving us some really interesting coaster concepts. Long may it continue I say.

:)
 
It wasn’t on here in 2012, but it probably would of been B&M back then and now it is Intamin. Some of my favourite coasters are Intamin, and their recent projects are really eye catching! From Velocicoaster and pantheon in the States, to the Walibi Belgium and Parc Asterix coasters in Europe.

B&M will for the foreseeable future more than likely maintain their spot at the top from a parks point of view, they have a miles better record for delivering high quality build coasters with very good capacities whilst being operator and host friendly.

however, as an enthusiast I’d have to pick Intamin over B&M, their coasters just tick more boxes for me than B&M. And it will also be interesting to see how these ‘RMC’ style elements will feel with what I think are the best restraints on the market right now.
 
8 years on I'd say the biggest change is that B&M and Intamin are just 2 options of many. RMC have brought in a whole new type of coaster. Mack's mega coaster has proven really versatile (chain lift, multi-launch, 200ft + and even spinning). Vekoma have re-invented themselves and are opening some really interesting rides. Gerstlauer are the go to for compact coasters as well as great young family coasters.

As for the others I haven't mentioned they no longer feel like a second rate option. They have their strengths and it's understandable when a park choses them.

And all of them have been redesigning their restraints so B&M are no longer the only option for comfort.
 
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