The B&M vs Intamin thread

[CGM]

After discussing the differences between B&M and Intamin in the Heide Park thread, I thought it might be an idea to leave people alone to discuss Heide park and move the debate here.

So is Intamin pushing the boundaries or do they go too far and create technical headaches? Do their coasters stand the test of time or do they become rough and un-enjoyable?

Do B&M produce consistent, quality coasters or are they forceless and boring? Have they lost their early spark or are their new coasters better than ever?

Maybe this thread should be called B&M vs Intamin vs 90s B&M in any case, which is your favorite (if either) and why?

 

[AstroDan]

Re: The B&M vs Intamin thread

It is no longer simply B&M and Intamin.

Gerstlauer, Mack, Zierer and others have REALLY upped their game in recent years, too!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[Ian]

For me personally I feel that B&M are the superior manufacturer. They constantly produce high quality, well engineered, precision built coasters. They do what they do and they do it to the highest standards.

Intamin on the other hand, while innovative, seem to have a nasty habit of rushing rides in an attempt to get ideas on the market. This results in some of their rides being quite seriously flawed, and in some cases written off as painful and uncomfortable (See Wing Rider).

The difference between the two is B&M never seem to release a design to the market before it is completely ready, and the quality of the ride is assured. This is why it took them so long to release their wing coaster design after Intamin, and I think it's clear to see who's turned out best.

I mean, people threw around the idea that SW7 might be a 4D coaster from B&M, and that's been disproved. Arrow had created a 4D coaster years ago now, but there's quite a few tales of the nightmare it was to get it working properly. I think now B&M have perfected their wing design it's the next logical step forward for them. But until they have a design they are sure is airtight and will offer the standards and quality they want it will not come to light.

I think this may be part of the reason we've never seen a 100% B&M launch coaster. They don't believe any of the current solutions are viable or meet the standards required by their attractions. It could be that they're waiting for some new technological breakthrough before we see them harness it. It's the same with magnetic brakes. Intamin seem to have been using them for years, but B&M have only recently began to install them on their coasters.

There's a lot of talk about how B&M have been a bit uninspired recently, using a by numbers layout on a lot of their rides. I don't think they deserve all the blame for this. There's a lot of parks put there who will buy a B&M ride just to get a piece of the market. They're one of the most respected names when it comes to quality and inverting rides. Therefore they'll take whatever B&M will offer them, and not really put much thought to it. Nommy could just as easily have been a B&M by numbers ride, but Alton and Wardley's designing and vision had them produce something a bit more special.

Look at Oz'Iris. It's present day B&M, but it's present day B&M getting creative with their coasters and producing something new. The lack of a pre drop and that dive out of the loop make it a seriously special ride. If a park wants something special I think they will get it if they're willing to pay the price and take the time to make it so.

 

[CGM]

Re: The B&M vs Intamin thread

It is no longer simply B&M and Intamin.

Gerstlauer, Mack, Zierer and others have REALLY upped their game in recent years, too!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

They certainly have, there's no question but I think it's safe to say that B&M and Intamin are still firmly at the top of the steel coaster food chain.

What I do find interesting is how Vekoma seem to have completely dropped off the radar. They made Battlestar Galactica, but since then, they have built no new major coasters at all.

 

[Adam]

My top coasters 5 are:

Nemesis (B&M)
Oblivion (B&M)
Katun (B&M)
Shambhala (B&M)
iSpeed (Intamin)

If that doesn't make my preference obvious, I dunno what will.

 

[BigAl]

I love both companies for different reasons. I like Intamin's adventurousness when it comes to doing new things. The industry needs it because as the years go by, it's becoming more difficult to think of new concepts and also go on to turn them into working attractions. Unfortunately, that can lead to, as you said yourself, "technical headaches". But when their rides are working, they're mostly great.

Then we have B&M. Although I love their older work like Nemesis, Oblivion, Kumba and Montu, B&M's more modern creations are mostly too soft and I also dislike their repetitive layouts that many American B&M's have where the ride just strings a load of the same inversions together. I went on Hulk five times in one day a few weeks ago and found the start to be great, but from the mid-course brake run and onward, it's a bit dull. It looks like that has more or less become the norm for their coasters. Just look at the plans for Cedar Point's Gatekeeper, or Port Aventura's Shambhala.

However, I think it's great that B&M still perfect their ideas. The one coaster that B&M can probably still nail is the mega and hyper coaster, as the smoothness is perfect for creating the air-time hills, and speed and height will probably be enough to let them off for not being as intense.

I wouldn't say that modern B&M's are boring, they just aren't generally as thrilling as most of their 90's creations. Intamin are thrilling, but at what cost? If only the two could work together to make ride that has the intensity and uniqueness of an Intamin concept, but have the refinement and grandeur of a colossal B&M.

That said, B&M could just go back to what they used to do but be more open to doing new things. Although that's probably easier written than done.

Their wing rider is a fantastic improvement over the Intamin and S&S variants, but I rode the Swarm and wasn't left yearning for more. It was impressive to look at (for a UK coaster) and the ride offers a unique experience, but apart from the first drop under the plane wing, it was average at best. Of course, that's my personal opinion, and I know that some people thought that it was better than Nemesis when it first opened, but I just can't see that at all. Nemesis is more or less relentless once it gets going whereas the Swarm has the look and theme that says "I'm an adrenaline machine! COME AT ME!", whereas the ride experience is far from that. It was never supposed to be as intense or insane Saw or Stealth, but it didn't come close to what I was expecting. I wanted Air on steroids but it felt like I got a taller version of Air with a different theme (albeit with a similar amount of theming to it).

Perhaps it was wrong of me to have expectations like that? Perhaps not? Either way, what I got wasn't what I thought I was seeing whilst waiting in the cattle-pen below, and I know that I'm not the only one that feels the same about it.

Whilst B&M made my favourite coaster, they aren't my overall favourite ride manufacturer. Intamin aren't either, although I've yet to ride Intimidator 305.



Sorry for picking on B&M so much, I just find it frustrating that they can't go back to what they used to do. After all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

[CGM]

However, I think it's great that B&M still perfect their ideas. The one coaster that B&M can probably still nail is the mega and hyper coaster, as the smoothness is perfect for creating the air-time hills, and speed and height will probably be enough to let them off for not being as intense.

I would even argue that it is only in recent years that B&M have truly nailed the hyper coaster. I've only ridden Silverstar and Shambhala so I only have that to go on but the difference between the two coasters is night and day.

That said, you hear a lot of good things about Nitro and Apollo's Charriot which are older B&M hypers but I can't decide if that's down to local bias or if they are the real deal. I suppose the only way to find out is to ride them.

 

[SLC]

While B&M do get a bit boring at times, when they get them right they get them perfect. Although I'm not too well-travelled, theme park wise, 7 of my top 10 (Manta, Montu, Nemesis, Hulk, Kumba, Oblivion, Chinese Firebolt) are B&Ms, and Intamin don't feature until #12 with Stealth making my choice clear, too. I think that Intamin are still a huge player and I'd like to ride on something that rivals any of my top 3.

 

[Sam]

B&M have never killed anyone.

 

[Benzin]

A pet peeve of mine is people saying "modern B&Ms are forceless"...

How is this true? Inferno is forceful (one of the most picked on UK rides) and even the most ridiculed B&Ms that I've ridden (Silver Bullet a big example) are better than some of the other manufacturers best rides... Add on that all their Hypers have a great amount of floating negative G...

Of course, some of their 90s coasters are absolutely awful (see - Every single stand up coaster in existance), and many of their American rides just don't quite simply stand up to their smaller European counterparts... Perhaps that's sommat to do with how the American rides are?

As for being unoriginal... Can we blame B&M for that? In the 90s how many Batman clones were built? Indeed, it's probably a mixture of park and B&M for these 'unoriginal' designs, but often, what CAN you do with some ride types? What else can you do to a Hyper coaster bar several airtime hills? Again, it's something mostly seen in America, but for the most part, a good number of B&M layouts are completely unique (aside from Batman and Medusa layouts, there's not many other off the shelf ones)...

As I've said before, Intamin create good rides, but quite often they try things too much that require something to be changed/altered at some point, or indeed need constant replacement due to the high level of forces being involved... Then there's their restraint design which seems inept at corners...

I guess it's all about what people want from their rides... Sheer intensity are Intamin's forte, but in some cases Intimidator 305 is beyond that acceptable level of intensity, and with my experience of Maverick and iSpeed (two excellent rides) are both ruined by the poorly designed restraints which cause a lot of neck pain for me...

Intamin are also not being helped by a relatively poor safety record (Decade of Death anyone?) and some rather unreliable systems... Perhaps this is the main difference between the two companies, Intamin end up producing a system and it becomes known as an expensive unreliable system, soon to be ignored in favour of cheaper (yet more reliable) systems...

And then there's a ride they don't let potential buyers ride for fear of it putting people off...


Both these companies have their faults, but to me, B&M design rides which will always be of some actual quality (unless it's a stand up)... It might not cause you to black out or throw you around like a rag doll, but you'll come back to the station with a smile on your face and an itch to get off and ride again... And at the end of the day, that's what a ride is meant to do... Be fun... B&Ms do that reliably again and again...

 

[Tim]

Mack Rides tbh.

Just beaten to it

Intamin and Mack should work together. Mack’s trains on Intamin’s track would be bliss.

---

In general I think there are two main factors that affect the B&M vs Intamin debate. The first is that of location. Intamin haven't made any of their great coasters in Britain. But elsewhere in Europe they have a few high rankers and tons of great rides in the states. B&M on the other hand have several great rides over here (with help from the likes of John Wardley) but most of their rides elsewhere are considered rather bland (yet still good).

The second and more important factor is the companies approach to Engineering. B&M are amazing engineers. Although there rides aren't quite as unbreakable as they claim they are as perfectly as can be. They have the highest quality track and trains and most comfortable seat design. The only other company I've seen come close is Mack, and only very recently. However their failing is that they aren’t very good at designing interesting track layouts unless they are challenged to do something unusual. This is partially why their European rides are slightly more interesting; our landscape often demands non-standard layouts. They also make rides which are too perfect, often eliminating the forces that their older and less refined coasters manage. This seems to be the biggest issue with B&M but I do think it’s unfair to call their recent rides formulaic as the last 2 years has not only seen more B&Ms built than ever but they’ve nearly all had unique layouts.
Intamin experiment. While this is a good thing and means they end up with masterpieces such as Maverick it also means they make plenty of simple mistakes. For example there restraints are seriously lacking behind the competition (and not just B&M but all the manufactures). They are terrible when cornering despite that being what Intamin rides are good at. Again look at Maverick and the element that had to be taken out only to have Blue Fire come along with a very similar inversion severally years later that blew everyone away.

So for me it has to be B&M. I like my rides to be well engineered and Intamin are not nearly as reliable in that respect. But Mack... well they seem to offer the best of both worlds.

 

[Dave]

A couple of years ago if you would have asked this question i would have said B&M where safe (which doesn't mean boring) and intamin where innovative. Now i barely see Intamin as relevant (Th13teen was their last interesting concept and they ballsed that up).

There are many other manufacturers out there now who have more to interest me, Mack obviously are up there but they are very blinkered as to the markets they will persue (they don't seem to like "thrill"). Gerst had a great concept yet they havn't really broken away from that and they need to invest a bit more in the "quality" of their build, maybe SW7 will prove they have moved on but we will have to wait and see. MS are meh and Vekoma seem to be Disney's plaything but not much else.

Zierer are edging in there with some interesting rides and they have the drive to prove themselves i can imagine but they need more of the same. S&S are eccentric and can't get past the idea that air has to be involved somehow so meet all their roller coasters being bogged down with the stupid.

B&M are the grandads of manufacturers and they don't build anything until they get it right (compare Furious Backo horrificness to Swarm/ Raptor glory). I have yet to come of a B&M bored though sometimes they hold-back on giving you everything you want. Swarm is great, i enjoy it but it hasn't blown my mind. I still think they can do that and Shambala seems to be proving the point.

Every manufacturer has its day, B&M happened to have that when the online enthusiast phenominon was bright and new so anything they do gets over assessed. Intamin's day for now i imagine is over and it will do more of the same. It will be the likes of Gerst and Zierer that have the interest factor for the next few years but i think B&M, Intamin and even Vekoma will return with magic before long (B&M 4D coaster will be epic)

 

[AstroDan]

Re: The B&M vs Intamin thread

Having ridden ispeed at Mirabilandia, it's clear to me that Intamin ARE still making amazing coasters. The main issue is that they appear unreliable - I am never quite sure what I am going to get.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[CGM]

A couple of years ago if you would have asked this question i would have said B&M where safe (which doesn't mean boring) and intamin where innovative. Now i barely see Intamin as relevant (Th13teen was their last interesting concept and they ballsed that up).

I think it's highly unfair to blame Intamin for Thirteen, they delivered to Alton's brief perfectly. It's Alton's marketing which is to blame. I also personally don't really see the drop as that much of an innovation. I find it a bit of a nasty gimmick really.

As for not being relevant, Intamin's recent stateside coasters, Intimidator 305 and Skyrush are creating a lot of discussion for being the world's most intense, boundary pushing coasters. Looking at the new track and support style of these coasters and the new 4-across trains on Skyrush, I would suggest that Intamin have recently kicked into a new gear and I'm looking forward to see what they produce in the next few years.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see Mack as contenders, at least not in the big thrill coaster market. They have made one very good launch coaster but that doesn't mean they're instantly the best coaster manufacturer in the world. In a few years, if they produce more rides of a similar quality, then maybe but for now, there are quite a few manufacturers that I would rank above them.

 

[Dave]

Intamin failed on Th13teen technically, they couldn't get the basic physics of how fast a train would run around the track right. The drop is now very popular with guests and is no more gymmicky than sticking seats on the outside of a train.

The Intamin hypers are getting good reviews (though again they got the design wrong on I305 and had to retrack) and reports of increased roughness are coming in which i wonder will affect ride enjoyment in a few years.

As i said Mack dont do thrill so limit their scope really, though they offer a quality product.

I like Intamin other than their poor safety record but i just wonder with so many innovative manufacturers snapping at their heels, poor safety record and not as good a quality build as B&M that parks may start to be put off using them. Zierer have built 2 of their drop systems in one year already... Intamin have built just 1 in three years!

 

[Benzin]

Oh another thing, why do B&M get moaned at for having trims (which are often not actually turned on or affect the ride) whilst Intamin often add magnetic trims (which will always affect the ride) to a lot of their rides with only a few (in comparison) complaints...

iSpeed is a great coaster, but it just suffers decapitation issues... Just like every other Intamin ride (Stormrunner, Farenheit, Rita, Desert Race, Maverick, etc, etc, etc) that have those restraints... And they had to refit Skyrush's restraints already this year... It sometimes seems to be that Intamin's innovation is at the expense of smoothness and reliability...

 

[Sam]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzZcHQT_q58&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Looking at something like this, it's clearly not a two-horse race anymore. Mack, Premier and Gerstlauer are making leaps and bounds forwards every years.

This new Premier is basically out-Intamining Intamin. Intense, bonkers, spectacular experimentation. It's what Intamin used to do the best, but Premier look like they're challenging for the crown.

 

[BigAl]

I dislike the trims used on B&M's Montu because they deafened me for the rest of the ride and sounded like something had broken. I dislike the way in which the trims on Th13teen had to be added on afterwards to prevent it from over-speeding, because that just says to me that they didn't design it correctly and Alton Towers weren't happy with what the ride was doing prior to their addition. They also made no attempt to blend any of it in either.

Intamin and B&M are about equal for me though, although Intamin may slip down a notch if one of their rides does me an injury.

 

[CGM]

This new Premier is basically out-Intamining Intamin. Intense, bonkers, spectacular experimentation. It's what Intamin used to do the best, but Premier look like they're challenging for the crown.

Well let's not get too carried away. We should probably wait to see if it's any good first as Premier's latest effort hasn't exactly set the world alight. Premier have always only had one selling point and that's their LIM launch technology but Intamin since came along and offered a much better product with their hydraulic launch.

Premier have never really delivered a high quality product in my view and in the last couple of years they have become Maurer copycats who are a company that I believe are far more innovative and have done much more for the industry.

As for the idea that Intamin have stopped being mental, Cheetah Hunt, I305 and their Zacspin models are possibly their most out there coasters ever.

 

[BigAl]

As for the idea that Intamin have stopped being mental, Cheetah Hunt, I305 and their Zacspin models are possibly their most out there coasters ever.

Cheetah Hunt isn't really mental. In fact, it's pretty relaxing. You want madness, look at what Arrow used to do!