The Brexit Thread

[Sauron97]

That is more likely to happen if we stay in the EU. Look up TTIP! One of the most terrifying secret agreements out there which affects the NHS, introduces mass surveillance, allows companies to sue Nation state governments if they feel the country is affecting their business unjustly; all being dealt with by the unelected EU head body. At least if we have a *sense* of democracy and if what you were saying was indeed true we'd have a good shot at being able to throw those blokes out. You can't throw the commission out. It's incredibly difficult, even for MEPs, who can only get rid of the entire commission (w/ a 66% super majority vote in the EP ) rather than single commissioners.

I agree that the way it is going it does look like we are going to be an EU vassal state, but that's because we've been stitched up by the UK civil service and a PM with no backbone. I think the only way out of this is leaving on a 'no deal' scenario, as nobody will ever be able to agree on or secure a 'decent deal' (no such thing exists really, the EU would never allow it).

 

[IanB]

I knew exactly what I was voting for

I don't understand what leave was voting for.

• Was it leaving with no deal, going to WTO tariffs and working it all out from there?
• Was it to have a managed transition, where all the EU rules would apply for several years until a trade deal was struck?
• Was it to leave the EU, but stay in a customs union?

You can't throw the commission out.

The Commissioners are selected by the MEPs who are elected by the people. If you have a preference of who you want or don't want your local MEPs to elect to the commissions, email them. Unlike the House of Lords which is not elected. Also, its incredibly difficult for British politicians to lose their seats if people want them out.

When dealing with the US though, and TIPP, do you really think that a single country will be able to negotiate a better deal than 28 countries working together? We might be able to get a deal through quicker on our own because we allow lower standards than the EU would of allowed, but I would not call that a good thing.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of things that the EU could do better, but I just think that working
together, we are stronger and better than when we go it alone.

 

[Benzin]

I looked up TTIP quickly, a worryingly high amount of the too results were very unbiased videos/websites (plus a 4 year old article from the Independent telling us to be scared), which means where should I get my information about it from?

Herein lies a lot of issues that have resulted in Brexit et al. Echo Chambers promoted by the algorithms of the internet...

The thing is, it is still just about in negotiations... Would the EU agree to say, chlorinated chicken? I'd also much rather (given the general place of the UK in current markets) be part of 28 countries and able to say "no that's crap I don't agree", than one country against a much bigger one...

Outside the EU, USA, China and India will eat us up... And I would laugh if any agreement with any of them had Freedom of Movement included...

The so-called stitch up is because a lot of the points we've encountered as sticking points (like hard borders) were all put down as "Project Fear" and everyone being "sick of experts"... Both campaigns had faults, but only one was found to have actually been illegal...

And our futures are basically being used as career boosters for the politicians who switch sides on a regular basis... Look at Boris Johnson who decided May's deal was fantastic as soon as she said she'd resign... Or Rees-Mogg saying he'd support that deal after he voted no and has today said he will side against again...

People who say we should just leave don't understand the consequences of doing so... And it's incredibly sad to see such a divide come to the surface because of lies and foolishness...

 

[IanSR]

@IanB exactly what it said on the ballot paper, leave the European Union, there was nothing on there about deals, no deals, trade deals etc. It was leave or stay.

Don't blame me, it wasn't me who decided I should have a say on something I should never have had, and if the last few days have shown us anything, life outside the EU might not be so bad after all. It's also incredibly sad to see that many only considered one side was in the wrong during the campaign, when we all know there was outrageous claims and lies on all sides.

If you want to get angry about it, chew your MPs ear off about it, like I did.

 

[speedy]

Two other things I don't want to lose: free data roaming and interrail. Also leaving the EU may affect Erasmus exchange students at my university

 

[Sauron97]

The Commissioners are not selected individually by MEPs! They can only be chosen individually by country leaders as nominees and when it comes to approval, they can only be approved as an entire group or dismissed as an entire group, not as individuals; and as for the choosing process, a quick speech presented to MEPs is hardly a policy programme and does not give them the information they need (and doesn't matter as they aren't properly accountable), which is why there is always vocal opposition in the EP when it happens. MEPs have very little power. The EC are chosen not elected behind closed doors by governments for reasons the population are not aware of and as such are not accountable to the electorate.
As for TTIP, well, there are thousands of sources. It's not my job to tell you which ones are good or not, make your mind up yourself and form your own viewpoint, but at least understand for many reasons that it is not a universally popular arrangement and is being done behind closed doors. There are lots of e petitions against it with millions of signatures across Europe. I am one of them

The thing is, it is still just about in negotiations... Would the EU agree to say, chlorinated chicken? I'd also much rather (given the general place of the UK in current markets) be part of 28 countries and able to say "no that's crap I don't agree", than one country against a much bigger one...
.

I believe the absolute opposite. One nation (and one of the largest economies in the world) with its own interests occupying a seat on the WTO is a lot more effective than the viewpoint of 28 nations collectively all with conflicting interests, fiscal/monetary policies, industry sizes, political structures ect. That's why it took the EU so long to do a trade deal with Canada. Italy and France kept on pushing it back because they perceived it as threatening vital agricultural industries and threatening the validity of their GIs/exclusive food indicators or whatever you call them.

 

[IanB]

@IanB exactly what it said on the ballot paper, leave the European Union, there was nothing on there about deals, no deals, trade deals etc. It was leave or stay.

So you voted Leave, what do you want to happen as a result of that vote. What do you want parliament to deliver as a result of you voting to Leave? How did you want to leave the EU? What benefits do you think you will get as a result of leaving the EU?

Are you in favour of the deal May has got?

I have no problem with people voting to leave, but you must of had a reason for it, there must of been something good that you thought would of come of it. I might disagree with those reasons, as I do with @Sauron97 who thinks we will get a better deal on our own, but at least that is a valid reason why he choose to vote leave, I respect that.

Why did I vote to remain. I love freedom of movement, being able to study, work, go on holiday and retire anywhere in the EU is fantastic, yes I know all these things will be possible after Brexit, but its not going to be as simple and is going to cost a lot more. Being able to jump in my car, and drive around Europe knowing the same rules apply as if I was driving at home. I love that we are part of something bigger, that it is countries working together for something better, and that for the most part will all play by the same rule back. And I don't just mean in creating laws, or negations, I mean things like Science Project where teams across Europe work on projects in all areas. I love the fact that if our government does something not in our interest, we can ask the ECJ to rule on it. I love the fact this all costs me next to nothing each month, https://euworthit.uk/ will tell you how much you contribute to the EU, and what else your money goes on.

Yes, its not perfect, yes we will not get more "money" out of it then we put in, but you know what, I don't have a problem with that and the amount of money I put in, I do feel I get more out of it.

 

[IanSR]

@IanB I voted leave because I wanted to, just like I went to the kitchen and just got a lolly from the freezer, because I wanted to, I shouldn't need to justify it with a list of advantages I think it will bring, it was my choice and you should respect that without a list of demands, but since you insist, to me the thought of being free from the unaccountable and uncontrollable control of the EU was a bonus, plus as I said, I'm old enough to remember life before the EU existed (when you had to get a visa just to go to France) and I've done enough business outside the EU to know the shock horror that it isn't, it takes all of five minutes to fill out a customs form, and a few hours for clearance if importing, contuary to popular belief life will not cease to exist because you have to apply for a visa to go on holiday, or a permit to study, and of course yes, as part of the EU we cannot negotiate deals with emerging markets, not being a member means we can, and potentially get better deals than if we are a member of the EU.

Put simply, life experience told me that, since the EU has morphed into something that it was never intended to be, and had gained unaccounted, uncontrollable power over numerous countries throughout the continent, and should we ever object to these people, there is nothing you can do to stop them and in all likelyhood will possibly find yourself effectively banned from public life for expressing the wrong opinion or viewing the wrong website, or as has just been announced, be given no choice as to what facilities are added to my next car purchase including a device that will track me everywhere I go, not even allowed to decide if I want a speed limiter or not, then perhaps we are best out of this "super state", let's not forget the original core desire of the European Union was to become a unified trading block, not a Country.

I also do not agree with uncontrolled immigration, the mere fact that critism of the Immigration Pack has been declared a criminal offence, should be enough to tell you to run for the hills.

But I shouldn't have needed to write all that just because you don't agree with the vote I made, I made a choice, my reasons behind it are frankly none of your business.

 

[Tom]

On the referendum:

The 2016 referendum was a glorified opinion poll, it required politicians to implement. This need not have been the case if the Bill that created the referendum made the result legally binding and requiring no further action from politicians.

The referendum came about to satisfy the internal warfare that has existed within the Conservative Party for decades. It was not about democracy, and there was certainly not plan.

The Leave campaign was fronted prominently by people that had no power over the implementation of Brexit. Their promises never had any prospect of being implemented.

On the deal:

It makes us less of a sovereign nation than being a member of the EU.

It represents a treacherous and pointless Brexit. Removing future negotiating leverage, makes the UK a rule taker and potentially slices the United Kingdom into two parts.

The DUP are currently doing a good job of protecting the internal integrity of the United Kingdom.

Any Conservative Brexiteer voting for the deal is prepared to sacrifice a part of the UK for their own political gain.

On the European Union generally:

Its institutions are more democratic than the UK's.

Free movement and EU membership has nothing to do with the number of people coming to the UK to live and work.

Fascists Brexiteers (that's not all Brexiteers of course) should consider that restricting immigration from the EU will likely make Britain 'less white', as our labour markets are opened up as part of the living standards-draining trade deals the Conservative Party is fantasising over.

We generally do not fight strongly enough from within the EU, rather our politicians moan about it and have never attempted reform. We are dictated to by no one.

Europe is the richest and most advanced continent on earth, and is right on our doorstep.

On the path forward:

'No deal' will never be authorised by parliament. It is pointless talking about it - even if no deal is better than May's deal!

Probably nothing will happen without a general election and/or referendum of some kind.

Finally, I would question the intelligence of those who voted for Brexit unless they supported the Conservative Party at the time. They are in power (sort of) and the Leaving (or not) process hands a blank cheque to the Conservative Party to (try) and do as they please.

 

[IanSR]

And in here lies the problem with you remainers, I agreed with everything you said @Tom right up until the bit where you "questioning the intelligence" of leave voters as if we are some sort of second class inbred.

 

[Tom]

And in here lies the problem with you remainers, I agreed with everything you said @Tom right up until the bit where you "questioning the intelligence" of leave voters as if we are some sort of second class inbred.

I think I was particularly clear in my view that only someone who supported the Conservative Party at the time could legitimately have voted for Brexit.

"The government will implement what you decide" was clearly stated in the the same leaflet from the Conservative government that was against Brexit. Any non-Conservative supporter that fell for that can legitimately criticise no one.

 

[delta79]

You will be amazed at how people can not see some background plays in politics.

This does not make them less intelligent. They just don't understand how politics really works, and i don't truly understand it.

So i must be a thick remainer then.

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

 

[Tom]

You will be amazed at how people can not see some background plays in politics.

This does not make them less intelligent. They just don't understand how politics really works, and i don't truly understand it.

So i must be a thick remainer then.

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

They may not have realised the Conservative Party was in power at the time, but ignorance does still not create legitimacy of the action.

Anyone that voted for leave voted for what has happened and what is happening now, which is a Conservative Brexit. That is an undeniable fact and the idea that they thought they were voting for something else is irrelevant.

 

[DistortAMG]

I think the one thing that Brexit has highlighted regardless of if you voted to stay or leave, is what a complete joke our government and opposition party's are. It has been like this for a while. However, Brexit has put the spotlight onto parliament revealing the comical way they operate for personal interests. The fact our then prime minister quite almost immediately after the Brexit vote results came in, says it all.

The way Brexit has been handled has exposed this country's flaws for all to see. Austerity hit hard thanks to this government, the papers report that immigration and the money we pay to the EU are big causes of the current issues. Just attempts for the government to mask their own failings. Not one of them has got a clue, parliament is currently on the world stage, so the world is also seeing what a joke this country's leadership is.

Many people in this country now struggle to meet their rent, let alone getting a mortgage. University fees skyrocketed. Billions being spent on HS2, something that is predicted to do a huge lot of not much for the country (compared to upgrading the northern rail system).

The prospect of a no deal bexit could be a good thing. The crucial piece of information the media seem to forget is that the world trade organisation has rules in place for country's without trade rules. They are quite robust and fair. But you know, that will not sell papers so the media don't care....

 

[Matt.GC]

And in here lies the problem with you remainers, I agreed with everything you said @Tom right up until the bit where you "questioning the intelligence" of leave voters as if we are some sort of second class inbred.

Indeed, I agreed with everything you wrote in this post, except for the "you remainers" bit. Further proof that the whole referdum was shambolic from it's inception to the present day.

The country is NOT simply split into binary Remain vs Leave camps. You have already articulated very similar views to me on the EU, yet I voted to remain for reasons I have already explained. All people who voted remain aren't simply deluded, neo liberals whipped into a state of hysteria by so called "project fear" any more than "leavers" are drooling racists who were suckered in by a silly claim on the side of a bus.

Many people voted, like they would at a general election, for a variety of reasons. I don't think there is such a thing as a typical "leaver" or "remainer" and to claim there is and lump the entire country into just 2 different boxes and finger point is not helpful and its all I've heard for the last 3 years when the subject is "debated".

The stereotypes types being banded around in an attempt to simplify what happened in 2016 and somehow decode the message from the referdum are highly flawed and have been one of the main reasons we're in the state we're in now.

For instance, Jacob Reece Mogg, Liam Fox and Michael Gove are often regarded as typical Brexiteers, yet many on the hard left also hate the EU. Tony Benn for instance campaigned against entry in the first place, rightly predicting what would come. Jeremy Corbyn, when he's not busy pretending in front of the youngsters he's groomed into his party, deep down hates the EU and has spoken against it numerous times. George Galloway and Nigel Farage even shared a platform during the campaign, 2 people who would hate each other if they talked about anything else.

 

[speedy]

Indeed, I agreed with everything you wrote in this post, except for the "you remainers" bit. Further proof that the whole referdum was shambolic from it's inception to the present day.

The country is NOT simply split into binary Remain vs Leave camps. You have already articulated very similar views to me on the EU, yet I voted to remain for reasons I have already explained. All people who voted remain aren't simply deluded, neo liberals whipped into a state of hysteria by so called "project fear" any more than "leavers" are drooling racists who were suckered in by a silly claim on the side of a bus.

Many people voted, like they would at a general election, for a variety of reasons. I don't think there is such a thing as a typical "leaver" or "remainer" and to claim there is and lump the entire country into just 2 different boxes and finger point is not helpful and its all I've heard for the last 3 years when the subject is "debated".

The stereotypes types being banded around in an attempt to simplify what happened in 2016 and somehow decode the message from the referdum are highly flawed and have been one of the main reasons we're in the state we're in now.

For instance, Jacob Reece Mogg, Liam Fox and Michael Gove are often regarded as typical Brexiteers, yet many on the hard left also hate the EU. Tony Benn for instance campaigned against entry in the first place, rightly predicting what would come. Jeremy Corbyn, when he's not busy pretending in front of the youngsters he's groomed into his party, deep down hates the EU and has spoken against it numerous times. George Galloway and Nigel Farage even shared a platform during the campaign, 2 people who would hate each other if they talked about anything else.

Brexit has definitely made me lose faith in Jeremy Corbyn after he backed it. It's fairly obvious he supports it and he's split Labour as a result.

I won't vote conservative or labour as they support Brexit, not SNP because they support independence and not Green because they're against HS2. I'm stuck.

What I have noticed is that based on the interviews of members of the public on the news, no Brexiteer has a good reason, except a vague dislike of foreigners, which is really sad in my opinion.

 

[Matt.GC]

Brexit has definitely made me lose faith in Jeremy Corbyn after he backed it. It's fairly obvious he supports it and he's split Labour as a result.

I won't vote conservative or labour as they support Brexit, not SNP because they support independence and not Green because they're against HS2. I'm stuck.

What I have noticed is that based on the interviews of members of the public on the news, no Brexiteer has a good reason, except a vague dislike of foreigners, which is really sad in my opinion.

What the EU did to Greece is as good a reason as any. Have you ever stopped to think about why the news coverage always seems to portray this image of a typical Brexiteer? What proportion of professional journalists do you think voted to remain?

Yes, I believe a significant amount of people voted leave because they didn't like foreigner's but I think its very dangerous of anyone to assume that even a large minority of people who voted to leave for very legitimate reasons, did so because of a dislike of foreigners!

I agree with you on the Greens and SNP. I'll never vote Tory either, but that has nothig to do with Brexit. I simply don't see Brexit as a party political thing at all however I can't vote Lib Dem based on their EU policy (although credit to them for actually having one, unlike the 2 biggest parties) and telling people to vote for them for well over a decade to "keep the tories out" to then prop them up in government.

Then you get to Corbyn. No offense but I can't see how anyone ever had faith in Corbyn over Brexit. Did anyone who was swept up with "Corbyn mania" ever stop and actually look at this man's background before throwing their full weight behind him? True that alot of slurs against Corbyn are untrue or exaggerated hysteria, but one thing that isn't is his views on the EU. Him and his hard left pals always hated the EU. Ironic isn't it that he seems to have resorted to the kind of behaviours that he has accused his arch Nemesis Tony Blair of. Corbyn has worn a pro EU mask to keep young people's money flooding into the Labour party's coffers and to keep his young and enthusiastic supporters in the PLP on side, when actually, him, George Galloway and John Mcdonnell will all be high fiving each other the day the country leaves.

 

[speedy]

What the EU did to Greece is as good a reason as any. Have you ever stopped to think about why the news coverage always seems to portray this image of a typical Brexiteer? What proportion of professional journalists do you think voted to remain?

Yes, I believe a significant amount of people voted leave because they didn't like foreigner's but I think its very dangerous of anyone to assume that even a large minority of people who voted to leave for very legitimate reasons, did so because of a dislike of foreigners!

I agree with you on the Greens and SNP. I'll never vote Tory either, but that has nothig to do with Brexit. I simply don't see Brexit as a party political thing at all however I can't vote Lib Dem based on their EU policy (although credit to them for actually having one, unlike the 2 biggest parties) and telling people to vote for them for well over a decade to "keep the tories out" to then prop them up in government.

Then you get to Corbyn. No offense but I can't see how anyone ever had faith in Corbyn over Brexit. Did anyone who was swept up with "Corbyn mania" ever stop and actually look at this man's background before throwing their full weight behind him? True that alot of slurs against Corbyn are untrue or exaggerated hysteria, but one thing that isn't is his views on the EU. Him and his hard left pals always hated the EU. Ironic isn't it that he seems to have resorted to the kind of behaviours that he has accused his arch Nemesis Tony Blair of. Corbyn has worn a pro EU mask to keep young people's money flooding into the Labour party's coffers and to keep his young and enthusiastic supporters in the PLP on side, when actually, him, George Galloway and John Mcdonnell will all be high fiving each other the day the country leaves.

I liked Corbyn because a) He's not Theresa May and b) I support the scrapping of Trident and the nationalisation of services. c) The media was totally out to get him, and I was upset with our clearly biased media.

I don't think I've ever met a Brexiteer in person. The bias issue, I'm not sure about. I reckon there is more bias in favour of Brexit by our right wing papers, there certainly was leading up to it at least. I avoid all politics from these outlets though, so I would just see the newspaper covers on the BBC.

As a Scottish person, I guess I'm tired of hearing "bring back control" after the Scottish referendum. I feel things are fine just now, and there are real benefits to being part of something larger. Ultimately, I think freedom of movement is a great thing and we need to preserve that, not cut ourselves off.

 

[IanSR]

The problem with Corbyn is he is somehow even more delusional regarding the EU than both Dave and Teressa were combined, even Stevie Wonder could see that he will not stand a chance of negotiating a new "deal" with them, and certainly won't get a better one, the EU stated from the beginning if they didn't make the deal so distasteful it made us (and other states) rethink our position, they were not doing their job properly.

Corbyn is quiet literally following in Dave's footsteps and only listening to the small vocal minority group who are advising him instead of getting out into the greater country and getting the real opinion on the subject, and if he is not careful, he will make the same mistake.

 

[IanB]

Thanks @IanSR for sharing your thoughts, and apologises if you felt forced in to it, that was not my intention.

As someone in favour of the European Union, it can be difficult to understand why someone would vote to leave, and without people who are in favour of leave explaining why, I would continue to struggle to understand.