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The Brexit Thread

Are we going to fall down the problems facing the NHS rabbit hole. As the issues with the NHS are very complex.

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It is indeed fact that the higher the qualifications you have, the more likely you are to be against Brexit.

What that means is open to interpretation - clearly this fact will offend some people but hey.

As an aside - I lived a year of my life in Strasbourg doing my degree. I need to get the photos of me touring the European Parliament scanned in!

:p
 
Britford said:
Just to put this ridiculous argument to bed, no I am not racist...at no point have I said that immigrants are lesser because of race, I simply stated how I don't believe that the NHS issue has nothing to do with immigration, this is mostly due to how the media likes to protect migrants from any form of responsibility, despite them causing genuine issues (grooming gangs and non intergration for example)...I don't care if you disagree...

Now can we stop with such serious (potentially life ruining) false accusations!
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There is a big difference between what you've said quoted above, and what you posted earlier:

I simply don't believe the claims of it being caused by the UK nationals, it simply doesn't add up to me.
It's also disregarding the unknown amount of illegals who arrive by boat and are then effectively released into the wild on the agreement that, of their own volition, will willingly report back for deportation...they are illegal so they can't work for the NHS but they can still use it, no questions asked...

Your previous post suggested immigrants were the main if not only group of people putting strain on the NHS. You're now backtracking, suggesting immigrants are only a small part of the problem. If they're only a small part of the problem, why do you feel so strongly about curbing migration, at the risk of our own rights and our own economy?
 
IanSR said:
I'm a strong believer in free speech, I may not agree with someone's view, but I will defend their right to express it. If I don't like what they have to say just don't respond, it's that simple. After all, it may be you one day who finds themselves on the wrong side of the thought police and cancelled as a result, for oh perhaps, say, quoting Shakespeare to someone?

I saw nothing illegal in what was said, the person said they felt the NHS had been in effect, brought to it's knees by the influx of immigrants that had entered this country since we opened the doors and invited everybody in, but if you listened to the media the official narrative was that the NHS had been bought to its knees by bitter old white men living longer, calling this out is not racist, it may be a strong, and in some people's eyes a bigoted view, but it is not racist. If you think it is, I suggest you look up the official definition of racism, and by that I mean the real one, not the make believe leftiest definition, at no point was any claim made that the immigrants had damaged the NHS because they were inferior to the native white people who were a superior race solely due to the color of their skin, now that would be racist.

Of course, if we were to take the viewpoint that racism is anything that calls out a particular group or just anything that offends a person, then by that definition the constant insulting of leave voters, calling them idiots and posting photos of a people with no teeth accompanied by poorly spelled catchphrases in an effort to group all leave voters into a group of "idiots" as evident in this thread, is just as racist as saying the NHS has been bought to its knees by a massive population growth fed by immigration.

But alas, I don't see you getting outraged at that "racism" because to you its just an amusing "sock it to the leavers" meme rather than anything offensive and in need of cancelling, like the opinion expressed about the NHS.

...and before you take to Twitter to stir up the mob to hunt me down and dead name me, or whatever it is you do to people whose opinions you don't like, read, then re-read what I have said, at no point have I said I agreed with the viewpoint, just that he, or she, is just as entitled to express it, as you are to disagree with it. My personal opinion is the NHS is at its knees due to decades of under investment that predates us inviting in the rest of the continent in to use it, but that hasn't helped either, and that's not racist either, it's fact.




To take the point of view of others, yes, you did, or rather, you did not say this originally, so therefore you did suggest it by default.

See how easy it is to twist a persons words, or something they don't say, into something it's not?
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The remark “let out into the wild” was the issue, I mean factually the whole suggestion that immigration is the cause of the NHS’s woes is incorrect, but that’s not what others where saying was wrong with his remarks. Dehumanising a group is a racist trope, that’s about it. No idea what you are on about regarding people suggesting “old white people” is the official cause of the NHS woes. The “ageing population” is a major factor, linked with underfunded care services and underfunded NHS its a perfect storm, the colour of the skin of the aging population is irrelevant.

Everyone loves to pretend they are for “freedom of speech” when they want to defend someone who has maybe said something a little off. Trouble with that is you are grossly mistaking what freedom of speech is. Firstly it only applies to the government, so a government can’t infringe your right to free speech. As the government hasn’t swept in and neutralised anyone of this forum we can assume that’s still intact. Secondly freedom of speech does not guarantee freedom of consequence. You don’t see anyone being shipped away by the thought police, but if you say something questionable expect to be challenged, that isn’t impacting on your freedom of speech but said freedom doesn’t mean you get to say what you like and not have someone else go “errrr maybe you are talking out of your posterior a little bit”. So no ones freedom of speech has been impacted, you can freely speak, just expect what is said to be debated. To suggest that you should just “not respond” if you disagree with someone is an absolute joke.

Regarding the whole news reader and Shakespeare quote, freedom of speech does not extend to a contract of employment, I myself think it seemed an usually harsh step to end someone’s career but we don’t know all the details. But regardless the freedom of speech argument doesn’t extend as ITV is not the government. It’s a private enterprise and it’s staff don’t have those protections (maybe they should, it’s a debate).

Regarding the whole “leavers are stupid” debate, you may have noted I have kept my council on that particular issue. There are clear correlations between education and the way people voted (baring in mind education and intelligence are actually two distinct if related things). I know intelligent people who voted for brexit, where I would say their knowledge was limited was they had a strong belief in the media and not critiquing what they where told. So you could argue their education lacked in this area. Angry memes don’t really help anyone here, suppose we end up back to the whole divided country here, I mean on Twitter it seems you only have to identify as a remainer and within 20 seconds the brexit crying children memes come out in force.

You seem to have an issue with the left, I mean it’s the left that created freedom of speech and we defend it to the hilt, it’s just a shame others keep abusing its definition to use as a shield against taking responsibility and to cry when people disagree with them.

No idea what “dead naming is” I will however resist doing it. I won’t stop debating the points though, if you can’t cope with that then maybe freedom of speech is not really what you seek, it’s responsibilities might be a bit too much for you.
 
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Britford said:
:rolleyes:


Anyway, it honestly won't be THAT bad, we are just leaving a trade union...that's it, you can still go to Europe, you can still even live there...the only thing that's changed is that we are now outside the EU.
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It will get much harder to get to Europe though, can’t just hop in a car and get on a ferry, will need to plan and check what visa is needed plus arrange travel insurance instead of a free EHIC card and check if you have free roaming on your phone contract.

Living in Europe will likely be even harder to, may need work permits or visa sponsorship rather than again just getting a job and moving over.
Similarly recruiting people to work in the UK is likely to get harder as we can’t just take on all EU citizens, (depending on what is set up in the next year) companies will have to do extra checks and arrange visas, dramatically reducing the pool of available people for jobs. This may then make some companies no longer able to trade once it gets harder to recruit good staff.

So yes we are now out the EU but it’s possible a lot will change in a years time.
 
jon81uk said:
It will get much harder to get to Europe though, can’t just hop in a car and get on a ferry, will need to plan and check what visa is needed plus arrange travel insurance instead of a free EHIC card and check if you have free roaming on your phone contract.

Living in Europe will likely be even harder to, may need work permits or visa sponsorship rather than again just getting a job and moving over.
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So, first world problems...

jon81uk said:
Similarly recruiting people to work in the UK is likely to get harder as we can’t just take on all EU citizens, (depending on what is set up in the next year) companies will have to do extra checks and arrange visas, dramatically reducing the pool of available people for jobs. This may then make some companies no longer able to trade once it gets harder to recruit good staff.
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You mean that those British jobs will have to go to the British...is that not good?
 
Britford said:
So, first world problems...
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To those of us who actually bother to travel further than the British seaside, and do so on a regular basis, it makes travelling more expensive and a pain in the arse.

Of course those who don't bother seeing the world or only go abroad on the lash in Maga don't see this as an issue; but to those of us who go out there to broaden our horizons and appreciate different landscapes, history and culture, meet with our friends on the continent or visit the significantly better European theme parks, it just makes it harder.

More so for the people who want to live, work or be educated out there.

Britford said:
You mean that those British jobs will have to go to the British...is that not good?
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I faced a medical condition in 2016 that had the potential to kill me. The lead surgeon who conducted the two operations prior to treatment, followed by my lead treatment administrator were both from Europe. I don't care much for their ethnicity or locality, I'd much rather have their highly qualified and proven track record save my life than leave it exposed to the lack of British people pursuing those careers.

It's all fine and dandy promoting the "British jobs for British people" mantra, but if there are no British people pursuing these jobs in the first place, what we are to do? Keep them vacant and to ourselves when there are highly qualified professionals from the EU perfectly capable of filling the roles?
 
Some would argue that funding for training for certain courses in this country has been cut in recent years due to the fact that it has been easier and adequate to just import ready trained people from abroad. You can't really argue that this hasn't had a negative impact on the opportunities for numbers of people born in this country.
 
Look forward to the queues of British people seeking a fruit picking job at the minimum wage. I mean we have enough unemployed right?

I do hate how "freedom of speech" has become so warped. Almost become synonymous with "I'm not racist but..." these days it feels.

Also a shame that genuine concerns with how the future holds are put down to "first world problems". Especially given that from this situation we have a government who really cannot be trusted to look after the worker's rights and the odds that many more companies will be moving out the country meaning more job losses.

I mean what are the odds of seeing an increase of funding towards schools given we will possibly have a huge chunk of income from the EU missing next year?

I also notice that we're already the victims in trade talks; as the EU are siding with Spain in regards to Gibraltar. But I guess anyone who though that would be a problem was just part of Project Fear again.
 
Britford said:
You mean that those British jobs will have to go to the British...is that not good?
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​

Where are these British people that need jobs? Why aren't they already fruit picking, cleaning offices, taking orders at KFC?
As @BarryZola said there probably is a lack of training spaces for roles such as nurses and certain jobs that need specific qualifications. But for a lot of minimum wage positions there just doesn't seem to be the people applying for the jobs. Many people complain about self-checkouts and other similar things taking away jobs, but this will get more common if companies have to start paying more.

For highly specialised jobs (university research, banking etc) where people are already being recruited from around the world it just increases paperwork. These jobs are open to everyone and Brits can apply but as the jonb would normally give a visa to the right applicant anyway, being out of the EU doesn't change much but just makes more paperwork as every non-UK student will need a visa rather than just non-EU.
 
Its not so much a lack of training spaces for people like nurses and doctors, but when the government took the bursary away the numbers going in to training fell dramatically. I hope they will bring this back to encourage more to again go into medicine, rather than relying on people from the EU to come and do this. And we are all guilty of using things like self service check outs - if no one used them stores would have to employ people once again.

Interestingly I had a chat with a remainer before Brexit. I said I was happy to pay extra for my shopping if it meant the person picking the veg got a decent living out of it. (i.e. we did not have to rely on labour from the EU). The remainer said they would not be happy and wanted their shopping to remain cheap. If the result of brexit is that more people are employed in jobs and trained in this country, but I have to pay a bit more to support it, then fair enough, I have no problem with that.
 
GaryH said:
Its not so much a lack of training spaces for people like nurses and doctors, but when the government took the bursary away the numbers going in to training fell dramatically. I hope they will bring this back to encourage more to again go into medicine, rather than relying on people from the EU to come and do this. And we are all guilty of using things like self service check outs - if no one used them stores would have to employ people once again.

Interestingly I had a chat with a remainer before Brexit. I said I was happy to pay extra for my shopping if it meant the person picking the veg got a decent living out of it. (i.e. we did not have to rely on labour from the EU). The remainer said they would not be happy and wanted their shopping to remain cheap. If the result of brexit is that more people are employed in jobs and trained in this country, but I have to pay a bit more to support it, then fair enough, I have no problem with that.
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I am also in general happy to pay a little more to support people (particularly at the farming end of the supply chain) it is ridiculous that milk is cheaper than Coca-Cola considering how much more goes into the production of milk, for example. Also hard manual tasks such as fruit picking should be paid to reflect the type of work.

But in terms of front-line staff and self-checkouts, I think many stores would actually struggle to recruit enough staff to offer a similar volume of checkouts, there just aren't enough people willing to work for minimum wage. If the wage was significantly higher then there still wouldn't be any more staff as the company wouldn't be willing to have more people to get more checkouts.
 
BarryZola said:
Some would argue that funding for training for certain courses in this country has been cut in recent years due to the fact that it has been easier and adequate to just import ready trained people from abroad. You can't really argue that this hasn't had a negative impact on the opportunities for numbers of people born in this country.
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For NHS courses Universities can’t fill the spaces, no one wants to train as wages have stagnated and the Bursary was removed. On top of that record number of people are leaving the profession because the stress levels far exceed the wages paid.

So immigration hasn’t really prevented UK people training in the NHS professions, can’t speak for other areas.
 
Danny said:
To those of us who actually bother to travel further than the British seaside, and do so on a regular basis, it makes travelling more expensive and a pain in the arse.

Of course those who don't bother seeing the world or only go abroad on the lash in Maga don't see this as an issue...
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To be fair, people travelling about on every whim is horrifically bad for the environment. If this results in everyone just staying put a bit more we'll have that climate change catastrophe sorted in no time.

See, it's not all bad.
 
GaryH said:
Interestingly I had a chat with a remainer before Brexit. I said I was happy to pay extra for my shopping if it meant the person picking the veg got a decent living out of it. (i.e. we did not have to rely on labour from the EU). The remainer said they would not be happy and wanted their shopping to remain cheap. If the result of brexit is that more people are employed in jobs and trained in this country, but I have to pay a bit more to support it, then fair enough, I have no problem with that.
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And how many more people will starve? Once foodbank use is back down, and fewer people live in poverty perhaps prices could be allowed to rise. In the mean time take all that spare money you'd want to spend on groceries and donate it to a food bank. Hard working adults, and their dependents and struggling to support themselves in the skewed economy.

A better suggestion might to be to buy locally. From the farm shop (if you are lucky enough to have one, of course). This cuts out the middle men and makes sure those growing and picking the food get a better cut of the money.
 
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